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-   -   Controversial ending (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104449-controversial-ending.html)

Nevadaref Mon Mar 18, 2019 02:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 1031177)
Referee Screws U.P School Iron Mountain Out Of State Championship – Pro Sports Extra |

Buried in this article is a different camera angle of the 2 plays. Gives a much better view of the Int. Foul call...not saying it was the correct call, but does give a better view of what the ref saw.
Thank you for the extra video from the reverse angle as it gives much better looks at both plays.
I can now definitely state that the player did NOT travel. He caught the ball with both feet on the floor. He then took a step towards the basket with his right foot. This makes his left foot the pivot. He next picked his left foot while transferring his weight to his right foot in motion towards the goal. Now he jumps off of the right foot and shoots prior to with foot returning to the floor.

The intentional foul is correct by the rules book. There is no attempt to play the ball and the offensive player is simply grabbed around the waist with both hands from behind (well, both from the side and behind as the defender comes from an angle). This is the call that the NFHS has been asking officials to make in their POEs for several years now. Just because it is still rare as many officials are resistant to following the NFHS instruction and making this call, doesn’t mean that it isn’t correct.

Nevadaref Mon Mar 18, 2019 02:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031105)
The MHSAA D3 title game ended in what can best be described as controversial fashion. The game, which featured a pair of 27-0 teams came down to the final 10 seconds. Iron Mountain (IM) HS was leading Pewamo-Westphalia (PW) 52-51. Iron Mountain broke the pressure and a pass was thrown to a wide open player who appears to take one step before making a layup with roughly 5 second left. The shot was waived off due to a traveling violation called by the center official who was near half court, not by the lead official who was underneath the basket and much closer to the play.

At this point IM has only committed 3 team fouls in the second half. The logical play is for the defense to foul with only a second or two left. PW brings the ball to roughly half court where the IM defender appears to reach for ball and grabs the PW player partially around the waist. The officials rule an intentional foul, giving PW two free throws which they sink to take the lead, and the ball out of bounds with 0.7 seconds left on the clock.

I don't know if video will be available of the ending as the MHSAA is pretty tight about videos being used on outside websites. It was controversial to say the least.

It was a great day of basketball in Michigan. The first game, D4 was a blowout. The second game was a buzzer beater as Ypsi Lincoln stunned UofD Jesuit 63-62. This was followed by the D3 IM vs PW game. The nightcap was long time Michigan power River Rouge losing by 3 to Hudsonville Unity Christian. This game came down to a pair of 3 attempts in the final 10 seconds by River Rouge, then a missed front end by UC before an off the mark 3/4 court heave by River Rouge that had the correct distance but was well off line.
I learned yesterday that through the FoxSports app on my roku I have all of these games on-demand. I have watched both the D1 and D2 Finals. I’ll make time for the others later this week.
Btw the D1 Final ended 64-62. Lincoln held the ball for the last 1:14 while the game was tied at 62 and then scored on a long 2 at the buzzer after rebounding their first attempt which missed.

BillyMac Mon Mar 18, 2019 04:20pm
Travel ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 1031177)
.. different camera angle of the 2 plays.
A much better view of the travel. I don't think that it was a travel. I believe that the left foot was the pivot foot at possession and it didn't come back down before the ball was released on the try.

Raymond Mon Mar 18, 2019 06:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1031211)
A much better view of the travel. I don't think that it was a travel. I believe that the left foot was the pivot foot at possession and it didn't come back down before the ball was released on the try.
I have the right foot as the pivot foot and think he traveled. But I sure would not be calling it from the Trail from that distance.

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HokiePaul Tue Mar 19, 2019 08:52am
I think the IF was way worse than the travel call.

The trail who called the travel, in my opinion, got the call wrong. But "if" the official believed there was an obvious miss on something like this (travel, double dribble, etc), then I have no issue coming to get this from that position. And the official's mechanics were excellent. We pregame that all the time -- come get something obvious, which is what the official thought he was doing.

I hate the IF call. This was a defender who got beat and illegally contacted the opponent. This would never be called an IF in any other circumstance except the official assumed that the player was trying to foul to stop the clock. This is an official way overthinking the situation. You can always upgrade too, so no reason to give a preliminary IF signal.

Rich Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 1031240)
I think the IF was way worse than the travel call.



The trail who called the travel, in my opinion, got the call wrong. But "if" the official believed there was an obvious miss on something like this (travel, double dribble, etc), then I have no issue coming to get this from that position. And the official's mechanics were excellent. We pregame that all the time -- come get something obvious, which is what the official thought he was doing.



I hate the IF call. This was a defender who got beat and illegally contacted the opponent. This would never be called an IF in any other circumstance except the official assumed that the player was trying to foul to stop the clock. This is an official way overthinking the situation. You can always upgrade too, so no reason to give a preliminary IF signal.


I feel completely opposite to you.

The T coming for this travel is horrible. Trust your partner. It's the height of arrogance to think you are better than the official standing right there.


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chapmaja Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 1031240)
I think the IF was way worse than the travel call.

The trail who called the travel, in my opinion, got the call wrong. But "if" the official believed there was an obvious miss on something like this (travel, double dribble, etc), then I have no issue coming to get this from that position. And the official's mechanics were excellent. We pregame that all the time -- come get something obvious, which is what the official thought he was doing.

I hate the IF call. This was a defender who got beat and illegally contacted the opponent. This would never be called an IF in any other circumstance except the official assumed that the player was trying to foul to stop the clock. This is an official way overthinking the situation. You can always upgrade too, so no reason to give a preliminary IF signal.
Under the MHSAA's point of emphasis this season, yes this was an IF. With that said, I have watched very similar plays happen multiple times this year and it has not been called an IF once. This was similar to what the coach had pointed out in the article.

I do agree that the official was overthinking the situation, but also something else was going on. Twice it appeared that the player fouled the ball handler before the IF and nothing was called. Had this been a team trailing on the scoreboard instead of leading, my guess is that the first or second foul would have been called. I think there is a substantial level on inconsistency when it comes to fouls by teams ahead compared with teams that are fouling to stop the clock to extend the game.

What I did find interesting is right after the game ended, there was a shot of the Iron Mountain coach talking to the individual in charge of basketball for the MHSAA. I don't know what was said, but I'm can guess knowing the individual in question.

BillyMac Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:46am
Be Late, Be Right, Be Needed ...
 
100% right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1031219)
I have the right foot as the pivot foot and think he traveled.
Until we get a better angle, I'm not disagreeing with you. I thought the same in the first video posted. Right, or left, I'm not making that call from forty feet away when I have two partners who have a much better look than me. The key was when the player caught (controlled) the ball.

Raymond Tue Mar 19, 2019 01:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031243)
Under the MHSAA's point of emphasis this season, yes this was an IF. With that said, I have watched very similar plays happen multiple times this year and it has not been called an IF once. This was similar to what the coach had pointed out in the article.

I do agree that the official was overthinking the situation, but also something else was going on. Twice it appeared that the player fouled the ball handler before the IF and nothing was called. Had this been a team trailing on the scoreboard instead of leading, my guess is that the first or second foul would have been called. I think there is a substantial level on inconsistency when it comes to fouls by teams ahead compared with teams that are fouling to stop the clock to extend the game.

....
I always say something to the crew when either team has fouls to give this late in the game. It's imperative to get the first inkling of a foul.

BillyMac Tue Mar 19, 2019 01:52pm
Escalating ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1031275)
I always say something to the crew when either team has fouls to give this late in the game. It's imperative to get the first inkling of a foul.
Keeps things from escalating. If the first touch foul doesn't get the official's attention, the second foul won't be just a touch.

deecee Tue Mar 19, 2019 03:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1031242)
I feel completely opposite to you.

The T coming for this travel is horrible. Trust your partner. It's the height of arrogance to think you are better than the official standing right there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
+1

There is no mechanic good enough for calling a marginal travel call from 50+ feet away when one official is 5 feet and the other 15 feet away from the play.

I don't care how good you look with your fist in the air, closing in, and making a big demonstration of a call that at best is 50/50.

As an official you are throwing yourself under the bus and I cannot defend your call in any capacity. It's one you get to defend to any irate coaches that want an explanation.

Matt Tue Mar 19, 2019 04:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1031283)
There is no mechanic good enough for calling a marginal travel call from 50+ feet away when one official is 5 feet and the other 15 feet away from the play.
I'm not sure there's a reason to call any travel in this manner, unless you know that at least one of the closer officials was not able to see it. If neither of them get one that is obvious to me, I would assume that they saw something that I didn't and are more likely to be correct.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Mar 20, 2019 09:15pm
The YouTube video does not show a very good view of the "IPF". So my question to the Forum is: "Where in the hell is the IPF? Where the hell is a PF?"

MTD, Sr.

Stat-Man Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1031283)
+1

There is no mechanic good enough for calling a marginal travel call from 50+ feet away when one official is 5 feet and the other 15 feet away from the play.
I believe one of the mantras I've seen on here goes, "If you call out of your area, get an elephant and not a mouse."

A travel that is marginal at best in both real-time and slow-motion is probably one of the smallest mice an official could go after.

Both deecee's and my sentiment were expressed quite a bit last night during my association's first baseball/softball meeting by those that also officiate basketball and/or watched the game.

If I felt the need to call something out of my primary, this wouldn't be it.

OKREF Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031344)
The YouTube video does not show a very good view of the "IPF". So my question to the Forum is: "Where in the hell is the IPF? Where the hell is a PF?"

MTD, Sr.
Check out some of the twitter feeds....definitely a foul, and a case can be made for IF


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