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chapmaja Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:42pm

Controversial ending
 
The MHSAA D3 title game ended in what can best be described as controversial fashion. The game, which featured a pair of 27-0 teams came down to the final 10 seconds. Iron Mountain (IM) HS was leading Pewamo-Westphalia (PW) 52-51. Iron Mountain broke the pressure and a pass was thrown to a wide open player who appears to take one step before making a layup with roughly 5 second left. The shot was waived off due to a traveling violation called by the center official who was near half court, not by the lead official who was underneath the basket and much closer to the play.

At this point IM has only committed 3 team fouls in the second half. The logical play is for the defense to foul with only a second or two left. PW brings the ball to roughly half court where the IM defender appears to reach for ball and grabs the PW player partially around the waist. The officials rule an intentional foul, giving PW two free throws which they sink to take the lead, and the ball out of bounds with 0.7 seconds left on the clock.

I don't know if video will be available of the ending as the MHSAA is pretty tight about videos being used on outside websites. It was controversial to say the least.

It was a great day of basketball in Michigan. The first game, D4 was a blowout. The second game was a buzzer beater as Ypsi Lincoln stunned UofD Jesuit 63-62. This was followed by the D3 IM vs PW game. The nightcap was long time Michigan power River Rouge losing by 3 to Hudsonville Unity Christian. This game came down to a pair of 3 attempts in the final 10 seconds by River Rouge, then a missed front end by UC before an off the mark 3/4 court heave by River Rouge that had the correct distance but was well off line.

chapmaja Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:41pm

Here is a link to the last few seconds of the game. You make the call.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUX8u4vWjwM

Camron Rust Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031105)
The shot was waived off due to a traveling violation called by the center official who was near half court, not by the lead official who was underneath the basket and much closer to the play.

Actually, it was waived off by the trail official who was still in the backcourt and racing towards the front court from over 50 feet away with two closer officials with better and more stable looks. Not a good call to make from that position from that far....even if he were right (and I'm not saying he was).

Rich Sun Mar 17, 2019 08:57am

I have watched this play now 50 times and I still can't, with 100% certainty, tell you if the player fully possessed the ball with a foot on the floor or with both feet in the air. And that's the difference between a travel and a legal play here.

So my lead's (who wasn't even off the floor for some reason) gonna live and die with this 100% of the time. There's zero chance I'm coming in to save the day from 50 feet out on a play that tight.

BillyMac Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:35am

Everybody Get Behind The Division Line ...
 
Why did the official wave the nine black team players away from their bench area while their teammate was about to take the two free throws for the intentional foul? For free throws when there are no rebounders in the marked lane spaces the nine nonshooters have to remain behind the free throw line extended, and behind the three point arc. Almost all of the nine black team nonshooters were behind the free throw line extended. Just move the offenders behind the free throw line extended. The ten white team players were allowed to congregate at their bench area. Doesn't seem fair.

chapmaja Sun Mar 17, 2019 08:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1031123)
Why did the official wave the nine black team players away from their bench area while their teammate was about to take the two free throws for the intentional foul? For free throws when there are no rebounders in the marked lane spaces the nine nonshooters have to remain behind the free throw line extended, and behind the three point arc. Almost all of the nine black team nonshooters were behind the free throw line extended. Just move the offenders behind the free throw line extended. The ten white team players were allowed to congregate at their bench area. Doesn't seem fair.

Another very good question.

Wildcatwilly Sun Mar 17, 2019 09:35pm

Check out this article from Detroit Free Press:

MHSAA basketball bad calls in state finals can be avoided. Here's how

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/h...ls/3194470002/

Stat-Man Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:28pm

It must be the end of a sports season in Michigan again: Mick McCabe wrote one of his usual Post-Season Bash the Refs articles. :rolleyes: :(

Wildcatwilly Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:53pm

You can not like the messenger but that doesn’t mean the message is wrong. I struggle with this ending and I agree with his message on officials needing to work on their craft. I don’t know these three officials and don’t want to say they don’t but have seen enough mhsaa officials that absolutely do not do any work to try to improve and our constantly rewarded when it comes to state assignments.

Rich Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildcatwilly (Post 1031146)
You can not like the messenger but that doesn’t mean the message is wrong. I struggle with this ending and I agree with his message on officials needing to work on their craft. I don’t know these three officials and don’t want to say they don’t but have seen enough mhsaa officials that absolutely do not do any work to try to improve and our constantly rewarded when it comes to state assignments.



The message is a bunch of crap.

A crew maybe misses one call (I am not fond of the T reaching that far over a non-elephant) and there are calls to burn it all down. I applaud the MHSAA for putting together a system to ensure the same officials aren't chosen year after year. Oh the humanity that people have to sit two years after a state assignment!

chapmaja Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stat-Man (Post 1031144)
It must be the end of a sports season in Michigan again: Mick McCabe wrote one of his usual Post-Season Bash the Refs articles. :rolleyes: :(

I think this was a combination bash the ref and bash the MHSAA article, and I don't disagree with either.

Kelvin green Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:00am

If I’m trail, there is no way I’m going to call the travel. That’s my partners call all the way.

And now you why I hate a team that’s up ....fouling. Make them beat you....of course that’s why I don’t coach.

chapmaja Mon Mar 18, 2019 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kelvin green (Post 1031153)
If I’m trail, there is no way I’m going to call the travel. That’s my partners call all the way.

And now you why I hate a team that’s up ....fouling. Make them beat you....of course that’s why I don’t coach.

I think goes to the inconsistency of fouls called in late game situations. Had IM been down 1 instead of up one, they get the call on the first or second attempt at a foul and there is no intentional foul called. I think officials call it differently when a foul is committed by the team up trying to use the fouls they have without putting a team in the line.

deecee Mon Mar 18, 2019 09:14am

I think both these were "rough" and the officials that made the call will be under a lot of scrutiny, and deservedly so (I don't agree with the hate and public outcry, but the internal structure - assignor/evaluators/etc - should be the one addressing this). To make that travel call from half court or beyond, with 2 other guys with decent to good looks MUCH closer is rough.

The intentional foul.....there may be a case to be made, however it's a very lose case. At least it wasn't the same official that made both calls.

I'd rather miss a blatant travel than call one that isn't there, especially from 50+ feet away at such a crucial time.

In the end, and from my experience, expect these guys back on the same type of games next year :D.

rockyroad Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:42pm

Referee Screws U.P School Iron Mountain Out Of State Championship – Pro Sports Extra |

Buried in this article is a different camera angle of the 2 plays. Gives a much better view of the Int. Foul call...not saying it was the correct call, but does give a better view of what the ref saw.

Nevadaref Mon Mar 18, 2019 02:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 1031177)
Referee Screws U.P School Iron Mountain Out Of State Championship – Pro Sports Extra |

Buried in this article is a different camera angle of the 2 plays. Gives a much better view of the Int. Foul call...not saying it was the correct call, but does give a better view of what the ref saw.

Thank you for the extra video from the reverse angle as it gives much better looks at both plays.
I can now definitely state that the player did NOT travel. He caught the ball with both feet on the floor. He then took a step towards the basket with his right foot. This makes his left foot the pivot. He next picked his left foot while transferring his weight to his right foot in motion towards the goal. Now he jumps off of the right foot and shoots prior to with foot returning to the floor.

The intentional foul is correct by the rules book. There is no attempt to play the ball and the offensive player is simply grabbed around the waist with both hands from behind (well, both from the side and behind as the defender comes from an angle). This is the call that the NFHS has been asking officials to make in their POEs for several years now. Just because it is still rare as many officials are resistant to following the NFHS instruction and making this call, doesn’t mean that it isn’t correct.

Nevadaref Mon Mar 18, 2019 02:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031105)
The MHSAA D3 title game ended in what can best be described as controversial fashion. The game, which featured a pair of 27-0 teams came down to the final 10 seconds. Iron Mountain (IM) HS was leading Pewamo-Westphalia (PW) 52-51. Iron Mountain broke the pressure and a pass was thrown to a wide open player who appears to take one step before making a layup with roughly 5 second left. The shot was waived off due to a traveling violation called by the center official who was near half court, not by the lead official who was underneath the basket and much closer to the play.

At this point IM has only committed 3 team fouls in the second half. The logical play is for the defense to foul with only a second or two left. PW brings the ball to roughly half court where the IM defender appears to reach for ball and grabs the PW player partially around the waist. The officials rule an intentional foul, giving PW two free throws which they sink to take the lead, and the ball out of bounds with 0.7 seconds left on the clock.

I don't know if video will be available of the ending as the MHSAA is pretty tight about videos being used on outside websites. It was controversial to say the least.

It was a great day of basketball in Michigan. The first game, D4 was a blowout. The second game was a buzzer beater as Ypsi Lincoln stunned UofD Jesuit 63-62. This was followed by the D3 IM vs PW game. The nightcap was long time Michigan power River Rouge losing by 3 to Hudsonville Unity Christian. This game came down to a pair of 3 attempts in the final 10 seconds by River Rouge, then a missed front end by UC before an off the mark 3/4 court heave by River Rouge that had the correct distance but was well off line.

I learned yesterday that through the FoxSports app on my roku I have all of these games on-demand. I have watched both the D1 and D2 Finals. I’ll make time for the others later this week.
Btw the D1 Final ended 64-62. Lincoln held the ball for the last 1:14 while the game was tied at 62 and then scored on a long 2 at the buzzer after rebounding their first attempt which missed.

BillyMac Mon Mar 18, 2019 04:20pm

Travel ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rockyroad (Post 1031177)
.. different camera angle of the 2 plays.

A much better view of the travel. I don't think that it was a travel. I believe that the left foot was the pivot foot at possession and it didn't come back down before the ball was released on the try.

Raymond Mon Mar 18, 2019 06:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1031211)
A much better view of the travel. I don't think that it was a travel. I believe that the left foot was the pivot foot at possession and it didn't come back down before the ball was released on the try.

I have the right foot as the pivot foot and think he traveled. But I sure would not be calling it from the Trail from that distance.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

HokiePaul Tue Mar 19, 2019 08:52am

I think the IF was way worse than the travel call.

The trail who called the travel, in my opinion, got the call wrong. But "if" the official believed there was an obvious miss on something like this (travel, double dribble, etc), then I have no issue coming to get this from that position. And the official's mechanics were excellent. We pregame that all the time -- come get something obvious, which is what the official thought he was doing.

I hate the IF call. This was a defender who got beat and illegally contacted the opponent. This would never be called an IF in any other circumstance except the official assumed that the player was trying to foul to stop the clock. This is an official way overthinking the situation. You can always upgrade too, so no reason to give a preliminary IF signal.

Rich Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:00am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 1031240)
I think the IF was way worse than the travel call.



The trail who called the travel, in my opinion, got the call wrong. But "if" the official believed there was an obvious miss on something like this (travel, double dribble, etc), then I have no issue coming to get this from that position. And the official's mechanics were excellent. We pregame that all the time -- come get something obvious, which is what the official thought he was doing.



I hate the IF call. This was a defender who got beat and illegally contacted the opponent. This would never be called an IF in any other circumstance except the official assumed that the player was trying to foul to stop the clock. This is an official way overthinking the situation. You can always upgrade too, so no reason to give a preliminary IF signal.



I feel completely opposite to you.

The T coming for this travel is horrible. Trust your partner. It's the height of arrogance to think you are better than the official standing right there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

chapmaja Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 1031240)
I think the IF was way worse than the travel call.

The trail who called the travel, in my opinion, got the call wrong. But "if" the official believed there was an obvious miss on something like this (travel, double dribble, etc), then I have no issue coming to get this from that position. And the official's mechanics were excellent. We pregame that all the time -- come get something obvious, which is what the official thought he was doing.

I hate the IF call. This was a defender who got beat and illegally contacted the opponent. This would never be called an IF in any other circumstance except the official assumed that the player was trying to foul to stop the clock. This is an official way overthinking the situation. You can always upgrade too, so no reason to give a preliminary IF signal.

Under the MHSAA's point of emphasis this season, yes this was an IF. With that said, I have watched very similar plays happen multiple times this year and it has not been called an IF once. This was similar to what the coach had pointed out in the article.

I do agree that the official was overthinking the situation, but also something else was going on. Twice it appeared that the player fouled the ball handler before the IF and nothing was called. Had this been a team trailing on the scoreboard instead of leading, my guess is that the first or second foul would have been called. I think there is a substantial level on inconsistency when it comes to fouls by teams ahead compared with teams that are fouling to stop the clock to extend the game.

What I did find interesting is right after the game ended, there was a shot of the Iron Mountain coach talking to the individual in charge of basketball for the MHSAA. I don't know what was said, but I'm can guess knowing the individual in question.

BillyMac Tue Mar 19, 2019 09:46am

Be Late, Be Right, Be Needed ...
 
100% right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1031219)
I have the right foot as the pivot foot and think he traveled.

Until we get a better angle, I'm not disagreeing with you. I thought the same in the first video posted. Right, or left, I'm not making that call from forty feet away when I have two partners who have a much better look than me. The key was when the player caught (controlled) the ball.

Raymond Tue Mar 19, 2019 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chapmaja (Post 1031243)
Under the MHSAA's point of emphasis this season, yes this was an IF. With that said, I have watched very similar plays happen multiple times this year and it has not been called an IF once. This was similar to what the coach had pointed out in the article.

I do agree that the official was overthinking the situation, but also something else was going on. Twice it appeared that the player fouled the ball handler before the IF and nothing was called. Had this been a team trailing on the scoreboard instead of leading, my guess is that the first or second foul would have been called. I think there is a substantial level on inconsistency when it comes to fouls by teams ahead compared with teams that are fouling to stop the clock to extend the game.

....

I always say something to the crew when either team has fouls to give this late in the game. It's imperative to get the first inkling of a foul.

BillyMac Tue Mar 19, 2019 01:52pm

Escalating ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1031275)
I always say something to the crew when either team has fouls to give this late in the game. It's imperative to get the first inkling of a foul.

Keeps things from escalating. If the first touch foul doesn't get the official's attention, the second foul won't be just a touch.

deecee Tue Mar 19, 2019 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1031242)
I feel completely opposite to you.

The T coming for this travel is horrible. Trust your partner. It's the height of arrogance to think you are better than the official standing right there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

+1

There is no mechanic good enough for calling a marginal travel call from 50+ feet away when one official is 5 feet and the other 15 feet away from the play.

I don't care how good you look with your fist in the air, closing in, and making a big demonstration of a call that at best is 50/50.

As an official you are throwing yourself under the bus and I cannot defend your call in any capacity. It's one you get to defend to any irate coaches that want an explanation.

Matt Tue Mar 19, 2019 04:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1031283)
There is no mechanic good enough for calling a marginal travel call from 50+ feet away when one official is 5 feet and the other 15 feet away from the play.

I'm not sure there's a reason to call any travel in this manner, unless you know that at least one of the closer officials was not able to see it. If neither of them get one that is obvious to me, I would assume that they saw something that I didn't and are more likely to be correct.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Wed Mar 20, 2019 09:15pm

The YouTube video does not show a very good view of the "IPF". So my question to the Forum is: "Where in the hell is the IPF? Where the hell is a PF?"

MTD, Sr.

Stat-Man Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1031283)
+1

There is no mechanic good enough for calling a marginal travel call from 50+ feet away when one official is 5 feet and the other 15 feet away from the play.

I believe one of the mantras I've seen on here goes, "If you call out of your area, get an elephant and not a mouse."

A travel that is marginal at best in both real-time and slow-motion is probably one of the smallest mice an official could go after.

Both deecee's and my sentiment were expressed quite a bit last night during my association's first baseball/softball meeting by those that also officiate basketball and/or watched the game.

If I felt the need to call something out of my primary, this wouldn't be it.

OKREF Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:39am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 1031344)
The YouTube video does not show a very good view of the "IPF". So my question to the Forum is: "Where in the hell is the IPF? Where the hell is a PF?"

MTD, Sr.

Check out some of the twitter feeds....definitely a foul, and a case can be made for IF

chapmaja Fri Mar 22, 2019 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKREF (Post 1031363)
Check out some of the twitter feeds....definitely a foul, and a case can be made for IF

I agree there. I saw this play almost live on TV (First replay after it was called was when I turned to the game). Too bad we can't get the Fox Sports video feed of the game on here. Those are the best angles of the plays I think.


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