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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 03:03am
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Michigan D2 Championship

This contest between River Rouge and Unity Christian was shown as a full replay on FoxSports in my area. I had heard that it was a close game, so decided to watch it.
Some thoughts:
1. It was a tremendous game! If you have to opportunity to see it, do so!
2. The officiating was excellent. Great job by those guys. I could clip several plays for training and they nailed 99% of them.
3. The only call which I can point out as incorrect was awarding three FTs to a UC player at the halftime buzzer (he made 2/3), but that is only because I have the benefit of the TV replay which shows that the shot was not released before the red light on the backboard came on. In real time on the court, it is extremely close and the official has to look at the location of the player (behind the arc), the contact by an opponent (yes, he undercut him), and determine if the try is released in time (It wasn’t, but just barely late.) Plus there had been a scramble for the ball taking place in the waning seconds. (Perhaps the C could have helped with the timing of the release.)
4. The athletic ability of both teams was quite high. Nobody huge, but some nice 6-5 & 6-6 players who were long and skilled.
5. The defensive pressure of RR was amazing! If they could have pressed earlier without tiring out... Maybe... the coach had to decide when to really turn it on.
6. Great crowd! Game played at the Breslin Center. Home of Michigan State. Yes, they added a HS 3pt line.
7. Someone from Michigan will have to chime in and explain the location and nature of the schools. (Inner city, private, public, enrollment, etc.) How are the divisions determined? It was fascinating watching these two teams battle.
8. The racial make-up also provided a striking contrast with RR all-Black and UC all-White. Are there many such situations of this in Michigan? Don’t know what undercurrents this brought to the game, but nothing was apparent on the court. For the record the 3-man officiating crew had one Black guy and two White guys.
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 07:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
3. The only call which I can point out as incorrect was awarding three FTs to a UC player at the halftime buzzer (he made 2/3), but that is only because I have the benefit of the TV replay which shows that the shot was not released before the red light on the backboard came on. In real time on the court, it is extremely close and the official has to look at the location of the player (behind the arc), the contact by an opponent (yes, he undercut him), and determine if the try is released in time (It wasn’t, but just barely late.) Plus there had been a scramble for the ball taking place in the waning seconds. (Perhaps the C could have helped with the timing of the release.)
I didn't see the game, but as described (foul on a three-point attempt) the number of FTs is correct. Releasing the ball before / after the buzzer only affects the counting of the try (so, in this instance, if the ball had entered the basket, the try would NOT count and the player would still be awarded three FTs).
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:52am
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I didn't see the game, but as described (foul on a three-point attempt) the number of FTs is correct. Releasing the ball before / after the buzzer only affects the counting of the try (so, in this instance, if the ball had entered the basket, the try would NOT count and the player would still be awarded three FTs).
I agree. Since the shooter started the try for goal before the foul occurred, the foul occurs on a shooter attempting a three. The ball becomes dead at the point the point the buzzer sounds, meaning the three could not count. That doesn't absolve the defender of the foul he committed on a player in the act of a three point shot.
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 02:11pm
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Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I agree. Since the shooter started the try for goal before the foul occurred, the foul occurs on a shooter attempting a three. The ball becomes dead at the point the point the buzzer sounds, meaning the three could not count. That doesn't absolve the defender of the foul he committed on a player in the act of a three point shot.
Actually, in this case it does, unless the foul is intentional or flagrant.
The ball becomes dead while still in the player’s hands. Since this player will not become an airborne shooter that rule doesn’t come into play and the quarter ends immediately prior to the defender making contact.

Note:
Perhaps we differ in our rulings because neither of you have seen the video of this play.
The sequence was: player grabs the ball and quickly tries to release a try, the red light comes on, the ball is released, the defender contacts the shooter as he is coming down. The potentional foul was after the late release.

However, if the sequence had been: the player grabs the ball, the player begins the shooting motion, contact by the defender occurs, the red light comes on, the ball is released, then I would concur that the foul would properly be penalized by awarding FTs and the officials would be able to restore some time with knowledge.
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 05:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Actually, in this case it does, unless the foul is intentional or flagrant.
The ball becomes dead while still in the player’s hands. Since this player will not become an airborne shooter that rule doesn’t come into play and the quarter ends immediately prior to the defender making contact.

Note:
Perhaps we differ in our rulings because neither of you have seen the video of this play.
The sequence was: player grabs the ball and quickly tries to release a try, the red light comes on, the ball is released, the defender contacts the shooter as he is coming down. The potentional foul was after the late release.

However, if the sequence had been: the player grabs the ball, the player begins the shooting motion, contact by the defender occurs, the red light comes on, the ball is released, then I would concur that the foul would properly be penalized by awarding FTs and the officials would be able to restore some time with knowledge.
I have to disagree. The foul was in the act of shooting. Per the penalty portion of the contact fouls section of the rule book, a penalty for a unsuccessful shot attempt in the act of shooting is 2 or 3 shots. This does not specify the shot has to be out of the hands of the shooter. The ACT OF SHOOTING is the key part of this ruling.

You are correct in your rationale for the way you feel it should be called, but the act of shooting is the key term here. Once he starts the act of shooting, this is a try attempt, thus until he returns to the floor he is in the act of shooting.

The strange circumstances of the play would make it appear this shouldn't be considered an act of shooting foul since the ball was released given the clock expired before the release of the shot, however there is no exception to the rule allowing for this not to be considered in the act of shooting, thus the ruling was correct.
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 06:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
This contest between River Rouge and Unity Christian was shown as a full replay on FoxSports in my area. I had heard that it was a close game, so decided to watch it.

7. Someone from Michigan will have to chime in and explain the location and nature of the schools. (Inner city, private, public, enrollment, etc.) How are the divisions determined? It was fascinating watching these two teams battle.
8. The racial make-up also provided a striking contrast with RR all-Black and UC all-White. Are there many such situations of this in Michigan? Don’t know what undercurrents this brought to the game, but nothing was apparent on the court. For the record the 3-man officiating crew had one Black guy and two White guys.
In regards to the schools and their locations. River Rouge is a public school on the border of Detroit. This school is a traditional basketball powerhouse and has a substantial student population that school of choice transfers to RR from the City of Detroit. Unity Christian is a private school located in Hudsonville, which is the suburban/rural area between Grand Rapids and Holland on the west side of the state.

The divisions in Michigan are created by school enrollment. The MHSAA takes the enrollment of all schools in the state offering the sport and divides by 4. The largest schools are D1, next largest are D2 and so on. This was the first year basketball went to divisions, after previously classifying schools as Class A, B, C, or D for basketball. The prior system had a school classified into a Class based on enrollment with no regard to the school offering the sport. The new system only classifies teams offering the sport. This creates some slight variation from the old system to the new system. Public and Private schools are classified together. A couple adjustments can be made to a schools enrollment. A school that is all one gender (like the larger Catholic Schools in the Detroit area) are classified based on double their enrollment. This is to make it fair comparing them with co-ed schools. Also if a school has a population of students that is more than 75% one gender, the schools can be classified differently. I don't know of any schools falling into this category. There used to be a school that was for people entering fields such as clothing design and similar largely female occupational roles. This school was classified under that system, but I think it diversified into a number of other fields and changed names as well.

As for the make-up of the teams. We do have a lot of communities which are largely segregated where the number of minorities is small. The closer you are to the major population centers the more diverse the schools are. The Detroit area schools tend to have a very high number of minorities and Caucasian's a definite minority in those schools.

For some schools there are a lot of games featuring racially diverse members. Some of the Detroit teams may rarely play a team with Caucasian players, while many other teams will seek out the best opponents they can find to play.

River Rouge is one of those teams that will play anyone without considering the opponent. This comes from a coach who isn't afraid to play a quality schedule. They actually beat the D1 state champions by 31 points early in the season. The majority of their opponents were from diverse communities because those schools 1) tend to be better basketball schools for the most part in Michigan, and 2) fit into the schedule afforded the schools based on conference schedules.

River Rouge and UC had one opponent in common. Both schools played Benton Harbor who entered the tourney ranked #1. BH beat RR by 10. UC knocked the #1 ranked BH Tiger's out of the tourney.

A lot of the highly ranked teams in Michigan have no problem playing other highly ranked teams. This is opposite of football. Since everyone gets into the basketball tourney, your team helps itself by playing a tough schedule. In football 6 wins gets you into the playoffs, so you want to avoid playing tough opponents. This is why RR struggles to fill their football schedule, nobody wants to play them.
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 06:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I have to disagree. The foul was in the act of shooting. Per the penalty portion of the contact fouls section of the rule book, a penalty for a unsuccessful shot attempt in the act of shooting is 2 or 3 shots. This does not specify the shot has to be out of the hands of the shooter. The ACT OF SHOOTING is the key part of this ruling.

You are correct in your rationale for the way you feel it should be called, but the act of shooting is the key term here. Once he starts the act of shooting, this is a try attempt, thus until he returns to the floor he is in the act of shooting.

The strange circumstances of the play would make it appear this shouldn't be considered an act of shooting foul since the ball was released given the clock expired before the release of the shot, however there is no exception to the rule allowing for this not to be considered in the act of shooting, thus the ruling was correct.
Because contact during dead balls is ignored unless flagrant?
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 06:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
I have to disagree. The foul was in the act of shooting. Per the penalty portion of the contact fouls section of the rule book, a penalty for a unsuccessful shot attempt in the act of shooting is 2 or 3 shots. This does not specify the shot has to be out of the hands of the shooter. The ACT OF SHOOTING is the key part of this ruling.



You are correct in your rationale for the way you feel it should be called, but the act of shooting is the key term here. Once he starts the act of shooting, this is a try attempt, thus until he returns to the floor he is in the act of shooting.



The strange circumstances of the play would make it appear this shouldn't be considered an act of shooting foul since the ball was released given the clock expired before the release of the shot, however there is no exception to the rule allowing for this not to be considered in the act of shooting, thus the ruling was correct.
If the shot is released after the horn and the contact is after the horn, there is no shot and therefore there is no airborne shooter to foul. The play is dead if the ball is in the shooter's hand and there has not been any contact.

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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 07:24pm
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It may not fully apply but NFHS Case 5.6.2 Sit D helps.
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Old Mon Mar 18, 2019, 08:35pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post

Note:
Perhaps we differ in our rulings because neither of you have seen the video of this play.
The sequence was: player grabs the ball and quickly tries to release a try, the red light comes on, the ball is released, the defender contacts the shooter as he is coming down. The potentional foul was after the late release.

However, if the sequence had been: the player grabs the ball, the player begins the shooting motion, contact by the defender occurs, the red light comes on, the ball is released, then I would concur that the foul would properly be penalized by awarding FTs and the officials would be able to restore some time with knowledge.
That's it -- I had the latter in my mind.
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Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 08:40am
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Originally Posted by youngump View Post
Because contact during dead balls is ignored unless flagrant?
when does the act of shooting start? The foul was in the act of shooting. Nevermind, I finally found, after looking at 5 different rules, where you can make the case to call it that way.

Last edited by chapmaja; Tue Mar 19, 2019 at 08:48am.
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Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 08:46am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
If the shot is released after the horn and the contact is after the horn, there is no shot and therefore there is no airborne shooter to foul. The play is dead if the ball is in the shooter's hand and there has not been any contact.

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I can see where you are coming from. This is where the definition of act of shooting become important, and where these is inconsistency within the rules.
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Old Tue Mar 19, 2019, 09:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
It may not fully apply but NFHS Case 5.6.2 Sit D helps.
5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1’s attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)
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