T Time Saturday - Help me here
 

Sitch from this weekend HS Rec League...Partner had players involved in some unsporting behavior (jack jawing and going chest to chest) ...he felt warranted double Ts in the first half.

At the end of the game, up 3, one of those players involved picked up a PF on and "and one" and didn't like the fact that the offensive player who scored reacted by being excited and decided he needed to get in that players face earning his 2nd T from me.

So he's done for the day. Now prior to leaving the floor, he slams the ball down and picks up his 3rd Technical from my partner. So his team went from up 3 to down 4 as they converted the bonus first and knocked down all 4 FTs for the 2-Ts.

So, when he was disqualified after the 2nd T and gets the 3rd T... Given he's now disqualified and not leaving the floor...if he had continued on his tirade, would/could you hit him with additional Ts at that point or?

Does the fact he already had 2 Ts and got the 3rd ...is there any special handling of a situation like that? I can't recall ever giving 3Ts to one player...had 2 plenty of times but this was a first for me.

Not sure what you mean by a special situation. You let the coach handle it. then you get the players to shoot the FTs and continue the game. Not much you can do beyond that. Now if the player does not leave the floor (they can stay on the bench if they are causing no problems), then you could consider forfeiture, but that would be extreme.

I do not know what is the administrative point of view for a rec game, so that might be a little different as to where or if they go.

Peace

Thoughts:

1. Was the coach notified of the DQ prior to the 3rd T? If so, it’s a bench T and the coach sits. Still an additional T charged to that team member (not that that makes much difference at this point), but indirect to the coach as well.

2. I don’t think there’s anything that prevents the third T from being called, and certainly it was warranted. However, piling on indefinitely after this would make a travesty of the game. So at this point I think there are three possible outcomes:

a. You provide a little slack, work with the coach if he/she is cooperative, and the player calms down and sits. Continue on with the game.

b. Eject the player with adult supervision. This sounds like one of those rare cases where that may be necessary. Ensure the supervision is aware of the importance of that task for liability purposes.

c. If the player refuses to comply with ejection, this constitutes a failure to comply with a technical foul penalty, and if the coach can’t control the situation (which is quite possible in a HS rec league), then declare a forfeit.

Of course after the game, call and report to the assignor as soon as possible.


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The time between 2nd and 3rd Ts was maybe 10 seconds so coach hadn't been notified just yet. He's a long time coach in this league (as am I from the officiating side of things) and he was as calm and cool as you could be about it.

As for piling on the Ts...I don't think that was the case here...this kid had taken issue with a PF committed against him early in Q1 where he got knocked down and he got up a little chippy about it....we talked to him and told him to calm down...then a little later is when he picked up his first T.

JRut ...our question was just surrounding him being disqualified and acting like a tool picking up the 3rd T. If he's still on the floor at the time that 3rd T is whistled, he's not a participant at that point due to the 2nd so just questioning administration of the penalty. I think we handled it properly as there was no not giving that 3rd T for slamming the ball down and it bouncing about 10' in the air.

So not only did that cost his team that game but now the hot head has to sit next weekend and it's the first weekend of their tournament (single elim) :p

3rd T? Unless you have some sort of league specific rules, there is no such thing. After second T, wait for him to leave gym, then shoot FT's, and continue game. If he refuses to leave gym, just forfeit game.

That is in part why I asked too. I've never had that situation. Would you let the slamming of the ball down after the 2nd technical go? The entire gym saw it....

Rules reference?

Having been a part of this league for 19 seasons...I know what their board of directors wants in terms of behavior from coaches and players but no, nothing in the "house rules" ...but we got no argument from coach, the Commissioner of that particular league or the league President who happened to be at this site that day (they play in 3-4 different locations).

Appreciate you guys chiming in...always a good learning environment here! :cool:

This is wrong.....there is no limit to how many T's you can give someone. Unless something has changed recently. The only difference is after DQ, the coach is also getting indirects.

Also, as was mentioned earlier, they are not required to leave the floor. If their continued presence will inevitably cause a problem, you can send them with adult personnel to the locker room, but there isn't a requirement for them to leave.

Around here players have a certain amount of time to vacate the confines of the gym (or get to the bench if children) when they get ejected. After that, it is a forfeit and I'm sure some type of suspension or banishment from that particular league.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

Does a second (or even third) technical foul charged to a player automatically warrant an ejection?

2 direct T's result in a DQ. In HS all T's are direct, except for T's against bench personnel which also result in an indirect on the coach. 2 directs or any combination of 3 direct & indirect T's result in a DQ for the coach.

In every venue I work it does.

You misread that.

They must absolutely leave the floor after 2 T's. They're DQ'd and can no longer be a player. They need not, however, leave the bench.

Rare Player Ejection ...
 

This league follows the NFHS/IHSAA(Indiana) rules as the umbrella with a few "house rules"...such as, every player must play 2 full quarters, no subs, no press if up by 10 or more.

So yes, with this player getting 2 direct technicals, he was done for the day and must sit the teams next game because of getting tossed out. His coach must meet with player and the league commissioner to discuss the reason behind it and the commissioner, at his discretion will either allow him back after the 1 game off or boot them from the league. This kid will serve his one game and be back (provided they win their next game which is tournament).

We have had kids and a long time ago, a couple coaches who were booted and banned from playing and coaching in the league for fighting and just being general d-bags. They instituted a Code of Conduct that all players, parents and coaches sign off on. It's not fool proof but the league is well run and for the most part, we have eliminated a lot of the "trash" with that COC and having multiple board members on duty during the games along with Indy Metro Police officer in each gym.

Head Coach Informed ...
 

Minor point, but the player is disqualified after the head coach has been informed that his player is disqualified. This may have an impact on indirect technical fouls to the head coach for unsporting issues related to bench personnel.

It's not 100% clear in the original post if the player's third technical foul was before, or after, the head coach had been informed of said player's disqualification. Before? No indirect to head coach. After? Indirect to head coach and he sits.

Years ago when I worked rec ball every venue in our area had the rule that any team that received 3 technical fouls in a game immediately forfeited that game. You should use your position with the board to add to the "house rules." Very helpful in maintaining order.

All Technical Fouls ???
 

Even "administrative" technical fouls (rosters, uniforms, numbers, etc.), of "delay" after warning technical fouls?

2 T's to a player warrants an ejection?!?!? It's results in disqualification, but only coaches are ejected under NFHS rules.

My point was what others have said. Under NFHS rules, a player (especially a minor in a HS league and having an adult coach) is not required to leave the venue just because he/she has 2 (or even 3) T's. There may be other reasons to ask him/her to leave (with supervision), but the number of T's isn't directly one of them.

Rec leagues. Not talking about high school games.

They don't want the nonsense in their gyms.

Only recball I do is adults, so maybe it's different for children around here.

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The OP specifically said HS Rec league. Barring some house rule like you mention, and especially since there appears to be an adult in the coaches box, I don't think it's prudent to "eject" a player.

It's also not prudent to let a player hold up the game by his refusal to follow instructions and having tirades on the court after being "disqualified".

The last thing I would be thinking about in a rec game is what the NFHS literature says.

I stand corrected. But my point is still valid, minus the wrong wording, I did mean leave the gym, not the floor.

Sorry, just player techs

Yes, let it go. The game has become a travesty..for a moment. It is in the league's hands now. I have been in a rec league where someone was ejected (2 direct Ts) and then lobbed the ball towards the ref who was not looking. The ball hit him directly in the back of the head and the ref went down. Medical treatment was needed. Lawsuit was filed, etc. Were we supposed to give another T for lobbing the ball? And one for hitting the ref? And another for the ref going down? Of course not, this conversation is about direct Ts and there is no such thing as a third...of which I have ever heard. By that rational, a ref could simply give 5, 7, 11 T's in a row, maybe more. Rules reference? Exactly, where is it in the rules that people are getting a 3rd direct T that trumps the other cases citing ejection, travesty, forfeiture, etc.

Point is, once the player has been ejected/DQ'd or whatever term you want to use, it is no longer in your hands. The league, spectator judgement(social justice), police, or whatever, will address any further behavior from the culprit. Do not continue the game until the player has left and if the player has not left or is uncooperative, then you leave. Simple as that. If the league director or other person "in charge" favors allowing that type of player to ruin the game and finds disfavor with you for leaving, then neither you nor should anyone, officiate for that person/league. Take your dignity with you and never look back.

Free Shots ...
 

Citation please?

Until I get over to the coach to discuss ejection from the gym and/or forfeiture, the player is not going to get away with taking "free shots" at me, my partner, or other players. I'm not going to fire away with technicals like a machine gun, but I'm not automatically stopping at two.

Agree.

I'd love to see where you get that. I think you need the rules reference to back up your claim as the only things I see is what actions should be called a T. None of them say to ignore them if the team member has been DQ'd already. The person is still a team member and under your jurisdiction. If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it.

And yes, another T should have been called for a player throwing the ball at the ref...the fact that it hit him and needed medical attention was still the same act, however. But, that was a rec league. I'd forfeit the game at that point and be done with it. So the number of T's wouldn't matter.

So by this logic, say you DQ a player for a 5th foul. Then he calls you an expletive on his way off the court. Is it no longer in your hands to award an unsporting technical because it would be his 6th?

There is a case play that precisely allows you to grant this sixth foul. To me, it therefore follows that there is no prohibition against fouls (technical and/or personal) above the DQ threshold.

I agree with BillyMac....rapid fire Ts are not desirable, but an additional T for an additional specific unsporting act as in the OP cannot be ignored and should be penalized.

Automatic ???
 

Not always an automatic technical foul, need some context and intent to decide.

I've had players toss me the ball thinking I was paying attention when I was actually concentrating on something else and I've been hit with the ball, and I've seen the same thing happen to partners, and in games I was observing.

(I've also tossed the ball to my partner and had a player cross the path of the ball and get hit with that ball.)

Yeah, it's probably T-worthy, but it could also just be an accident, wrong place, wrong time, no intent of unsporting conduct, or harm.

(I've also hit a player in the face while looking at the table for the possession arrow direction and pointing the direction without looking where I was pointing. Ouch. Not my finest hour.)

Coaches Too ?
 

Don't forget substitutes and bench personnel. And you probably want to throw in coaches too?

You are reaching. This (OP) is about 2 T's on a play resulting in an exit from the game. It is not about some idle comment after a 5th foul or any of the other cases that have been proposed. Stop reaching. And please do not use "If they commit an infraction of the rules, penalize it." as my tag line explains that garbage. Some indicate to give a 3rd T but yet do not give multiple consecutively. Wow, hypocrite city. Rules/case book provide the information. I have neither heard nor seen anyone give a third T unless they were going against the rule/case books. I will probably see that when, in the same game, multiple fouls are called on the same play, lol. BM, why ask for citations when they were already provided? The rule book tells us what to do regarding ejections and the case book gives plenty of guidance regarding the game becoming unmanageable. Remember also that this was a rec league so the level of oversight plummets.

I can see it now CC. You call 5th foul. Players swears at you. You call a T. Player swears at you again as they walk away from you. You call a T. Player swears at you again from a greater distance. You call a T. As player nears door to exit gym with trainer (player was injured during play), they swear at you again. You call a T. See where this is going? Come on, use common sense. How about this, adult rec league, player gets his nose completely shattered/broken on a play. The player drops 4 consecutive F bombs. You quickly blow your whistle 4 consecutive times forming the T signal with your hands and give the other team 8 FT's. Lol, would love to see that. Yes, these are extreme examples, but so are the cases being provided. Use common sense and don't ever throw literal rules at all situations. Use rule 2-3 in a sound manner to cover the ultra rare plays that happen once in a lifetime. And we all ignore plenty of actions/rules so do not use the argument that an action/rule can't be ignored.

Come on CR, any further action is not "ignored", it is just handled by a different authority.

Context ...
 

First period. A1 taunts B1. First technical foul. Second period. A1 swears at official. Second technical foul and disqualified to the bench. Third period. A1, on bench, stands and loudly complains about a call. Third technical foul, coach sits, and a discussion ensues with the head coach about a possible "ejection" of A1 to the locker room with adult supervision in lieu of a possible forfeit.

The NFHS doesn't say that I can't charge a third technical foul to A1.

If he's not swearing at me, and not swearing at an opponent, and is just in a lot of pain, the f-bomb can be ignored. In this case, all four f-bombs can be ignored.

If he is swearing at me, or is swearing at an opponent, four rapid fire f-bombs in a row will get him only one (not four) technical foul (probably flagrant). After I report the technical foul to the table, and after the player with the broken nose has a few seconds to compose himself (having time to process that he just got penalized for the first tirade), if he swears at me (or an opponent) again, I will charge him a second technical foul (even if the first one was flagrant).

I have given a 3rd T only once.

A player received two, and the league required DQ'd players to leave the venue. He returned ten minutes later to get something he forgot, stopped at the door on his way out the door the second time and yelled at me and my partner.

I didn't see the need to forfeit the game, so a third technical was appropriate, and I think it is allowed by rule.

I also agree with the other sentiment expressed here to avoid rapid fire technical fouls- they don't help and it is better to let things settle down. But, mine wasn't rapid fire. He came back after leaving.

Pick A Prize From the Top Shelf ...
 

And you'd be correct.

You (plural) keep coming up with scenarios other than the OP. Whatever it takes to fit "your" situation. If, for your last case, I was the official, I would have him removed after the second T. Or, ignore the complaint, after all who cares about that in a rec league. It should be common that you would not even hear the player, lol. Or, If you allow him to stay on bench and feel the need to give a T, just issue a bench technical and then have player removed. Or, just have him removed. Diffuse and avoid making it worse.

Not sure why four in a row would not require you to give 4 T's. How much time do you allow between actions? Clearly, it is your discretion, which is exactly what is available to everyone. What if they were 11 F bombs at you in complete succession? Gonna rattle off the T signal with your hands 11 quick times when he is done? Pfft, nah, then you would be making the travesty.:cool: I am not believing that you would ignore a player swearing loudly out of anger/frustration. Not buying that you would allow players to continuously swear out loud an entire game just because it is not at you/opponent. Not even close to making that purchase.

I am done on this one. However, for those that are on the bubble, trust me, do not issue more than 2 technicals on a player as described in the OP. Let the player make headlines, not you.

Quit making stuff up.

If you have ANYTHING in the rule or case book that backs up your claim even remotely, I've love to see a citation rather than a bunch of rambling hot air.

Now you've done it. Here come another 1000 words.

Expletive Words ...
 

I don't count expletives. A player calling me a "f**k**g a**h**e" doesn't get a technical foul for each expletive word. I don't believe that that's the purpose and intent of the unsporting rule.

Never said anger/frustration (that, at minimum, would lead to a discussion with said player), I was describing an extreme injury situation. I seldom use the f-word, it's how I was brought up in my Irish Catholic family with a Lutheran raised mother, where my brother and I weren't even allowed to utter "Shut up" to each other, and where I once repeated a friend's curse using the f-word and got my mouth washed out with soap. Never once heard either my father or my mother ever use any curse word. Never. Not even once. Not even a "damn".

That being said, if I were to receive a blow to the face that resulted in a broken nose, or dropped a gigantic rock on my foot, or fell on some ice and broke a leg, I can assure you that the f-word would probably come rolling out of my mouth.

But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, he that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. (John 8:7)

(Note: I once confessed to my pastor that while stuck in my every day horrible traffic commute, that I would occasionally use the f-word and the word "God" in the same sentence. After asking where my commute took place, he said that it was completely understandable. No penance, but he suggested that whenever such a situation occurred, rather than swear, instead I should say a prayer that the other driver gets home safely. I followed his advice never swore again in traffic, said a few prayers, and had much more enjoyable commutes with a much lower blood pressure. My pastor is a wise man.)

I have done it a couple times. Once tourney and once varsity. If a coach fails to get his kid in order and the kid refuses to act with some form of civility here come some more T's. In both cases the coach had an assistant or whomever usher the kid out of the gym (smart on the coach). Not only do the rules support this, but I was never paid enough to put up with that level of excrement.