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Kansas Ref Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:52pm

Mechanics Creep
 
I often see NF level officials who use non-NF mechanics/signals during a game. For example,

1) when chopping in the clock a ref will make a 'fist' and snap it in hemi-circle, instead of vertically stricking an open-hand downward. I have seen NBA and NCAA refs do this; however, to my limited knowledge this is not NF-approved?

2) when signalling a "Block" I frequently see NF level refs bouncing their closed fists off their hips several time s in a rather animated fashion; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to place both open hands on your waist between the index and thumb area.

3) when a FT attempt misses the ring entirely, I frequently see NF level refs hold up an index finger and swirl it several times; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to sound your whistle, raise your arm with an open hand, and point in the other direction [optional to say "no ring/no rim"] and indicate that we're heading the other direction.

4) when and "and 1" [player scores on an offensive rebound and gets fouled so we're shooting 1] I frequently see NF level refs do a "fist punch" signal to indicate the action; however, in my limited knowledge Ibelieve the NF mechanic is to simply hold up two fingers and strike down, then 1 finger to indicate next action [i.e., one FT is to be attempted next].

I could go on but I'll just end it here...

Aside from a 'purist' point of view, is there anything troubling about these observations?

AremRed Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
I often see NF level officials who use non-NF mechanics/signals during a game. For example, 1) when chopping in the clock a ref will make a 'fist' and snap it in hemi-circle, instead of vertically stricking an open-hand downward. I have seen NBA and NCAA refs do this; however, to my limited knowledge this is not NF-approved?

2) when signalling a "Block" I frequently see NF level refs bouncing their closed fists off their hips several time s in ar ather animated fashion; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to place both open hands on your waist between the index and thumb area.

3) when a FT attempt misses the ring entirely, I frequently see NF level refs hold up an index finger and swirl it several times; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to sound your whistle, raise your arm with an open hand, and point in the other direction [optional to say "no ring/no rim"] and indicate that we're heading the other direction.

Aside from a 'purist' point of view, is there anything troubling about these observations?

No. Any other questions?

Kansas Ref Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:02pm

ohhArem...

JRutledge Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
I often see NF level officials who use non-NF mechanics/signals during a game. For example, 1) when chopping in the clock a ref will make a 'fist' and snap it in hemi-circle, instead of vertically stricking an open-hand downward. I have seen NBA and NCAA refs do this; however, to my limited knowledge this is not NF-approved?

OK, it is not necessarily a college mechanic either. And no one cares but those that have nothing better to say point this out IMHO. If you go to any high level camp and someone is pointing this out seriously, they really are just nitpicking you. Never been to a college camp or worked a college game and this was ever pointed out there as not using the right mechanic. I wonder why?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
2) when signalling a "Block" I frequently see NF level refs bouncing their closed fists off their hips several time s in ar ather animated fashion; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to place both open hands on your waist between the index and thumb area.

Sorry, but to me this is one of the dumbest things people worry about. It looks silly if you give the signal at the time with "open hands." And the college mechanic (at least men's) shows the very same picture.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
3) when a FT attempt misses the ring entirely, I frequently see NF level refs hold up an index finger and swirl it several times; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to sound your whistle, raise your arm with an open hand, and point in the other direction [optional to say "no ring/no rim"] and indicate that we're heading the other direction.

Aside from a 'purist' point of view, is there anything troubling about these observations?

You realize that there was a time when kicking violation was not in the book either. Everyone used the "kicking violation signal" before it was put in the book. No one cared. This is something I do not care about either.

Peace

Rich Wed Feb 06, 2019 03:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
I often see NF level officials who use non-NF mechanics/signals during a game. For example,

1) when chopping in the clock a ref will make a 'fist' and snap it in hemi-circle, instead of vertically stricking an open-hand downward. I have seen NBA and NCAA refs do this; however, to my limited knowledge this is not NF-approved?

2) when signalling a "Block" I frequently see NF level refs bouncing their closed fists off their hips several time s in a rather animated fashion; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to place both open hands on your waist between the index and thumb area.

3) when a FT attempt misses the ring entirely, I frequently see NF level refs hold up an index finger and swirl it several times; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to sound your whistle, raise your arm with an open hand, and point in the other direction [optional to say "no ring/no rim"] and indicate that we're heading the other direction.

4) when and "and 1" [player scores on an offensive rebound and gets fouled so we're shooting 1] I frequently see NF level refs do a "fist punch" signal to indicate the action; however, in my limited knowledge Ibelieve the NF mechanic is to simply hold up two fingers and strike down, then 1 finger to indicate next action [i.e., one FT is to be attempted next].

I could go on but I'll just end it here...

Aside from a 'purist' point of view, is there anything troubling about these observations?



I hope someday assigners and supervisors who are so anal about this stuff are gone from the game. Nobody should care. I hire for a lot of schools. I don't.

Stuff like this is #26 on my top 25 criteria for hiring someone.


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Paintguru Wed Feb 06, 2019 07:57am

I'm pretty sure I do all four to some degree. Signals are meant to communicate information. IMO, as long as that information is being communicated, most should be fine with it. Obviously there are mechanic sticklers out there, but as others have said, I'm not sure why anyone should care unless it impacts the actual game in some way.

I'm more worried about both referees on a 2-person game being on the same side of the court multiple times, as I saw last night.

Raymond Wed Feb 06, 2019 08:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
I often see NF level officials who use non-NF mechanics/signals during a game. For example,

1) when chopping in the clock a ref will make a 'fist' and snap it in hemi-circle, instead of vertically stricking an open-hand downward. I have seen NBA and NCAA refs do this; however, to my limited knowledge this is not NF-approved?

2) when signalling a "Block" I frequently see NF level refs bouncing their closed fists off their hips several time s in a rather animated fashion; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to place both open hands on your waist between the index and thumb area.

3) when a FT attempt misses the ring entirely, I frequently see NF level refs hold up an index finger and swirl it several times; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to sound your whistle, raise your arm with an open hand, and point in the other direction [optional to say "no ring/no rim"] and indicate that we're heading the other direction.

4) when and "and 1" [player scores on an offensive rebound and gets fouled so we're shooting 1] I frequently see NF level refs do a "fist punch" signal to indicate the action; however, in my limited knowledge Ibelieve the NF mechanic is to simply hold up two fingers and strike down, then 1 finger to indicate next action [i.e., one FT is to be attempted next].

I could go on but I'll just end it here...

Aside from a 'purist' point of view, is there anything troubling about these observations?

The only time I worry about any of these things is if I'm working a camp game in front of a purist/older observer.

I don't use the fist for an And-1 because I don't want it confused for a punch (TC or PC foul).

I do use an open hand to chop the clock b/c I think it looks better than clenching my fist and b/c it is a pet peeve of my highest level supervisor.

I use fists to the hips for block calls b/c I don't like the open hand to the hips signal.

For airball free throws and shots that end up over the backboard or hitting a suspended object, I simply do the open hand violation signal and verbalize "violation".

I do or don't do all these things based on what I think looks best for my presentation. If you are hustling, getting into position, managing game situations, and getting plays right, those things you pointed out are not an issue to most supervisors/assignors.

SNIPERBBB Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:12am

#2 looking like a gorilla banging your hips repeatedly will probably get you yelled at in postseason play here in Ohio.

Rich Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB (Post 1029865)
#2 looking like a gorilla banging your hips repeatedly will probably get you yelled at in postseason play here in Ohio.



One bang of the hips at the spot. One gentle one at the table.

Hands on hips is a terrible mechanic that should have been modified years ago.


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SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:26am

Kansas Ref, do you give a preliminary on every foul you call and verbally inform the fouler? Aren't those things in the manual?

In my experience the people that get bent out of shape about this stuff couldn't care less about play-calling and game management. All they care about is that everything is done exactly by the book. Not surprisingly, they're not very good officials themselves. They're in the group of officials that likes to have 10-minute meetings with the captains and coaches.

At least 75% officials I work with at the HS level use fists and not open hands to signal a blocking foul. Who the hell cares that it doesn't exactly mirror the book? It's a much stronger signal that communicates the exact same message with more authority and confidence. The book also says to signal direction with four fingers; I work with very few officials that do it that way.

Officials (and assigners, quite frankly) that focus on this crap: get a life.

SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1029866)
One bang of the hips at the spot. One gentle one at the table.

Hands on hips is a terrible mechanic that should have been modified years ago.

Clearly it seems most states don't care, thankfully.

UNIgiantslayers Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:46am

This is an interesting thread from someone who gives a pregame DOG warning.....

BillyMac Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:42am

Proficient In All Aspects Of Officiating ...
 
My local IAABO board is all about education, it's our number one priority, the education of new officials, and the continuing education of veteran officials.

Mechanics is a part of that educational process.

After our new officials take our rules classes and pass the written rules exam, they have to take our mechanics classes and then pass the "floor exam".

After that, they are mentored by some of our best officials, and mechanics is a part, a small part, but a part, of the mentoring process.

During the season, all officials (new and veterans) are evaluated by their partners and also by trained observers, and mechanics make up 20% of the evaluation.

Evaluations lead to advancement, or sometimes, demotion.

We strive to have our officials be proficient in all aspects of officiating, rules knowledge, judgment, game management, teamwork, and mechanics.

Mechanics are often discussed at our meetings.

Sure, rules knowledge, judgment, teamwork, and game management are all much more important than standing the right spot during timeouts and intermissions.

But being a great official and having good mechanics are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Sure, we have some guys that have perfect "robot" mechanics but don't know if the basketball is stuffed or inflated, but these guys never see the light of a varsity game.

Almost all of our top guys, the ones working the state tournament, usually deep into the state tournament, are proficient in all aspects of officiating, including mechanics.

ilyazhito Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029850)
I often see NF level officials who use non-NF mechanics/signals during a game. For example,

1) when chopping in the clock a ref will make a 'fist' and snap it in hemi-circle, instead of vertically stricking an open-hand downward. I have seen NBA and NCAA refs do this; however, to my limited knowledge this is not NF-approved?

2) when signalling a "Block" I frequently see NF level refs bouncing their closed fists off their hips several time s in a rather animated fashion; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to place both open hands on your waist between the index and thumb area.

3) when a FT attempt misses the ring entirely, I frequently see NF level refs hold up an index finger and swirl it several times; however, in my limited knowledge I believe the NF mechanic is to sound your whistle, raise your arm with an open hand, and point in the other direction [optional to say "no ring/no rim"] and indicate that we're heading the other direction.

4) when and "and 1" [player scores on an offensive rebound and gets fouled so we're shooting 1] I frequently see NF level refs do a "fist punch" signal to indicate the action; however, in my limited knowledge Ibelieve the NF mechanic is to simply hold up two fingers and strike down, then 1 finger to indicate next action [i.e., one FT is to be attempted next].

I could go on but I'll just end it here...

Aside from a 'purist' point of view, is there anything troubling about these observations?

For point #1, I chop time in using an open hand.
For #2, I use open hands, but I bring both hands down forcefully on my hips.
I do not use the "swirlie", as the usage described is not even related to the way it should be used. The "swirlie" is an NBA signal for basket interference. For FT violations, I just use open hand, say what the violation is, and point the other way.
For #4, I drop the hand that was in a fist for the foul, and then show 2 fingers (or the touchdown signal, if a 3-pointer). I then show 1 finger for 1 shot. My "last-second shot scores" signal is similar, except it starts with ano open hand instead of a fist (and no free throws).

jeremy341a Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1029866)

Hands on hips is a terrible mechanic that should have been modified years ago.

Not disagreeing but why would fists be better? I also seen some saying hand behind the head for player control is a weak signal. I don't understand that either.

SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 1029879)
Not disagreeing but why would fists be better? I also seen some saying hand behind the head for player control is a weak signal. I don't understand that either.

Fists on hips is much stronger and less awkward than open hands. There's a reason you don't see very many officials using open hands unless they work in/for a micro-managing assigner/state.

#olderthanilook Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:08am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1029868)
Kansas Ref, do you give a preliminary on every foul you call and verbally inform the fouler? Aren't those things in the manual?

Based on the times I've seen Kansas officials work, he probably does most, if not all, of the time.

Freddy Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:18am

Hi, I'm Freddy, and I'm . . .
 
I'm no doubt the exception here. And I'm good with that.
I'm one of those who, by virtue of the position to which I've been appointed, teach and maintain prescribed and approved mechanics -- and signals -- as dictated by the ruling body of the code that prevails over those whose training I'm responsible for. And I'm good with that.
I understand that the preferences and interests of others in other areas and even of assigners and AD's and coaches -- and even some officials -- in our area here may differ. And I'm good with that.
I have learned that intelligent officials can pursue excellence in play-calling while at the same time prioritize using prescribed mechanics and approved signals asked of them. And I'm good with that.

jeremy341a Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1029881)
Fists on hips is much stronger and less awkward than open hands. There's a reason you don't see very many officials using open hands unless they work in/for a micro-managing assigner/state.

Do you feel that the fists mechanic makes it more likely the call will be perceived as correct or do you feel it makes the official seem more confident in their call?

SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy341a (Post 1029886)
Do you feel that the fists mechanic makes it more likely the call will be perceived as correct or do you feel it makes the official seem more confident in their call?

Both. Perception is a big deal. I can give off a more confident perception with fists than open hands.

I've never seen an official give an open hand preliminary block signal that looks good. I want to be strong in all my mechanics, irrespective of whether a call needs "sold" or not.

BillyMac Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:48am

Poor Mechanics ...
 
For thirty-seven of the past thirty-eight years I've worked with, and observed, an outstanding official. He could call the hell out of a game, manage the heck out of a game, and charm the pants off of any coach, player, fan, or partner. In his heyday, he was a state tournament official, and a college official. When he walked into a gym, everybody greeted him like he was the mayor. Even in his later years he could run rings around younger partners.

He ended his season every year by volunteering to officiate Special Olympics Unified Games, most of us volunteer at one site, he would volunteer for several sites.

His mechanics were far from perfect. Sometimes he made up signals (some quite funny looking) on the spot, and sometimes his rotations and switches weren't quite kosher (once spotted him doing a 540 degree switch, he just kept moving until he felt comfortable).

Everybody wanted to work with this guy, coaches wanted this guy in their games.

I learned a lot from him, not about mechanics, but about everything else regarding officiating basketball games.

After fifty years on the court, he retired last season. I miss him. He was a great partner. He was fun to work with. He was fun to watch.

I know that a lot of us, including me, take officiating very seriously, but it is, after all, a game, and we should be allowed to have a little fun, not a lot, but a little.

But his great official/poor mechanics was an anomaly, an outlier. Here on my local board, he was the exception, not the rule.

onetime1 Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:40pm

I call my block foul with closed fists and hit my hips about 7 or 8 times and do it simultaneously while hopping toward the score table. I do this because I think Joey Crawford looks really cool doing it.

SNIPERBBB Wed Feb 06, 2019 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by onetime1 (Post 1029893)
I call my block foul with closed fists and hit my hips about 7 or 8 times and do it simultaneously while hopping toward the score table. I do this because I think Joey Crawford looks really cool doing it.

That's basically what OHSAA doesn't want to see.

Freddy Wed Feb 06, 2019 04:09pm

The approved signal I teach here:
Block - Good Call, Good Signal, Good Report

deecee Wed Feb 06, 2019 05:24pm

If someone that has sway on your schedule says something to you, make an adjustment. Otherwise no one cares. I am yet to have an assignor go to me "hey the block signal is open palm, inner hand to waist. Not this closed fist nonsense." I've worked for about half a dozen in 15 years.

JRutledge Wed Feb 06, 2019 06:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1029905)
If someone that has sway on your schedule says something to you, make an adjustment. Otherwise no one cares. I am yet to have an assignor go to me "hey the block signal is open palm, inner hand to waist. Not this closed fist nonsense." I've worked for about half a dozen in 15 years.

I know I have worked for 30 or so different people in basketball alone and never had any of them complain about my mechanics in this way.

Peace

Stat-Man Wed Feb 06, 2019 08:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paintguru (Post 1029862)
I'm more worried about both referees on a 2-person game being on the same side of the court multiple times, as I saw last night.

Both the 2017-19 NFHS Officials Manual, 2 Person Crew Item 4.3.3 and the MHSAA-specific Mechanics Manual spell out instances where the lead may go ballside to cover a match-up.

I can't speak for whether this action was proper in the game you observed, but I wanted to point out that this is a mechanic in certain situations.

Rich Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paintguru (Post 1029862)
I'm pretty sure I do all four to some degree. Signals are meant to communicate information. IMO, as long as that information is being communicated, most should be fine with it. Obviously there are mechanic sticklers out there, but as others have said, I'm not sure why anyone should care unless it impacts the actual game in some way.

I'm more worried about both referees on a 2-person game being on the same side of the court multiple times, as I saw last night.


I assime you're not talking about going ballside here - if you are, I would be concerned with a crew whose lead never went ballside.


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ODog Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1029900)
The approved signal I teach here:
Block - Good Call, Good Signal, Good Report

Freddy, I'm glad you have a sense of humor.

That is seriously the most embarrassing thing I've seen, especially since his partner (whose call it was) was correctly about to call a PC foul.

That is unbelievable. And it sure looks like a varsity (2-whistle?!) game in California. Whoa ...

AremRed Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1029900)
The approved signal I teach here:
Block - Good Call, Good Signal, Good Report

That's the best sell of a call I've ever seen. In any sport. At any level. That guy is God-tier.

Freddy Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1029924)
That's the best sell of a call I've ever seen. In any sport. At any level. That guy is God-tier.

That wasn't you, was it? Nawwwwwww.

deecee Thu Feb 07, 2019 07:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1029900)
The approved signal I teach here:
Block - Good Call, Good Signal, Good Report

Lol and kinda embarrassing. To call so far out of one's primary. To be 100% wrong. To have a partner who is right there about to make the right call. Then to look goofy as all heck making said wrong call. If the actual call wasn't so bad and wrong this would have been funnier.

Paintguru Thu Feb 07, 2019 08:05am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1029915)
I assime you're not talking about going ballside here - if you are, I would be concerned with a crew whose lead never went ballside.


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Nah, they just both sat on one side, even as the ball came up the floor and was swung to the far side, away from them. Never switched once in the 1.5 quarters I watched. Granted, it was a middle school game, but still...

#olderthanilook Thu Feb 07, 2019 09:25am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1029900)
The approved signal I teach here:
Block - Good Call, Good Signal, Good Report

oh...my....goodness

deecee Thu Feb 07, 2019 09:50am

Although all this brings back a fond memory of a "veteran" official and what he said to me once. I was probably about 3 years in and was working a JV game. Vet walks in and starts talking to my partner and I and says "I can tell you guys did not communicate before the game."

I said, "What makes you say that." I knew we emailed but didn't talk. He responds with, "I carry 2 color shoe laces so I always match my partner, and your shoe laces don't match."

I gave him, what I imagine to be, the stupidest look in my life. I stood up and walked out while he was mid-sentence of some other nonsense.

That was the moment I realized that I cannot take everything any official tells me seriously, and I need to weigh what, and whom, is mentoring/coaching me.

The little mentoring I ever did, I always prefaced it with, pick what you want from what I tell you, but don't pick everything. It worked, kinda, for me, and I guarantee it all won't work for you. If it does, you're in bigger trouble then getting mentoring from me.

BillyMac Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:20am

Fisting ...
 
I've been fisting preliminary block signals my entire career. Hard to change. By the time I get to the reporting area I will often report with the correct hands on hips signal. At least I'm half right. Also half wrong.

constable Fri Feb 08, 2019 03:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1029866)
One bang of the hips at the spot. One gentle one at the table.

Hands on hips is a terrible mechanic that should have been modified years ago.


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+this

Freddy Sun Feb 10, 2019 02:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by constable (Post 1029997)
+this

My, How Hideous a Block Signal! :rolleyes:

Rich Sun Feb 10, 2019 03:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy (Post 1030040)



Weak mechanic for a weak foul?


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deecee Sun Feb 10, 2019 04:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1030043)
Weak mechanic for a weak foul?


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Not even sure that's a block. Illegal hands or push.

AremRed Sun Feb 10, 2019 04:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1030043)
Weak mechanic for a weak foul?

Nah looks like a foul to me. Body bump affects dribbler SQBR. Prob not a foul in a higher level game with better players.

Camron Rust Sun Feb 10, 2019 06:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1030044)
Not even sure that's a block. Illegal hands or push.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1030045)
Nah looks like a foul to me. Body bump affects dribbler SQBR. Prob not a foul in a higher level game with better players.

I agree this is often a foul since the dribbler was redirected as a result of the contact. However, it is one that some will pass on.

Block, push, doesn't really matter. It could be either. A lot of foul definitions overlap.

Raymond Sun Feb 10, 2019 06:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1030045)
Nah looks like a foul to me. Body bump affects dribbler SQBR. Prob not a foul in a higher level game with better players.

It's a foul for me at all my levels.

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Rich Sun Feb 10, 2019 06:47pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1030047)
It's a foul for me at all my levels.

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I wasn't saying it isn't a foul. Guess it sounds that way.

Doesn't even deserve a prelim. Whistle, turn and report.


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JRutledge Sun Feb 10, 2019 07:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1030047)
It's a foul for me at all my levels.

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Foul to me as well. But I would not have used that signal.

Peace

Kansas Ref Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:13pm

Now that was quite a "dainty" demonstration of that signal. Something tells me that most officials [notwithstanding those on this Forum] would signal that action in a more 'manly'/ 'stronger' manner.

Apologies in advance for anyone who may view the use of the term "manly" as sexist or erstwhile politically-incorrect:p as certainly that was not my intention.

zm1283 Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:12pm

FWIW, I saw Gerry Pollard give the "hands on hips" block signal at a D1 game today and didn't think it looked all that bad. I don't really like the signal but it's not as big of a deal to me as it is to others. My bigger gripe is our limited number of signals to use for fouls at the table.

Also, some states/associations require a preliminary signal at the spot of the foul. We have to do it and I don't have a problem with it except on shooting fouls. The "illegal use of hands" signal feels really awkward in that situation.

BillyMac Wed May 01, 2019 12:28pm

For IAABO Members Only ...
 
Just got the word today that IAABO has approved two of my signal change suggestions for the 2019-20 IAABO Mechanics Manual.

One is a slight change in the labeling of the five second closely guarded violation signal, and the other is a slight change in the labeling of the delayed lane violation signal.

I bet that you won't notice these insignificant (they're both academic, with no real world value) changes, but if you do, blame me.

Kansas Ref Wed May 01, 2019 02:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032604)
Just got the word today that IAABO has approved two of my signal change suggestions for the 2019-20 IAABO Mechanics Manual.

One is a slight change in the labeling of the five second closely guarded violation signal, and the other is a slight change in the labeling of the delayed lane violation signal.

I bet that you won't notice these insignificant (they're both academic, with no real world value) changes, but if you do, blame me.

*Congratulations! I'm glad they implemented your proposals; this proves that ''someone'' is listening and caring in the IABO leadership.
Maybe the NF will be as responsive. Have you also sent your proposal to them [NF]?
Again, congratulations!

Kansas Ref Wed May 01, 2019 02:22pm

for clarity...
 
Hay could you please describe / clarify how the accepted proposed changes look like? Any signal changes for the better--I'd like to read about.

BillyMac Thu May 02, 2019 11:04am

Are You Totally Underwhelmed ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1032606)
... could you please describe ... how the accepted proposed changes look like? Any signal changes for the better, I'd like to read about.

Sorry to disappoint you, but as I stated, the changes are just to the labels on the signal chart and are very insignificant (they're both academic, with no world real value) editorial-type changes.

Again, these are IAABO changes, not NFHS changes.

1) Changed “Delayed Lane Violation” to “Delayed/Withheld Whistle” label to allow for delayed free throw violations that do not involve a lane violation, i.e. distraction, or three point arc violation. Rationale: Previously, IAABO didn't have a signal labeled on the chart for delayed violations such as distraction, or a three point arc violation. They only had a signal labeled on the chart for a delayed violation on a lane violation.

2) Changed “Five Second Closely Guarded” to “Five Second Closely Guarded And Five Second Throwin Violation” label. Rationale: Previously, IAABO didn't have a signal labeled on the chart for a five second throwin violation. It’s the same signal for a five second closely guarded violation, but it wasn't specifically labeled for five second throwin violations on the signal chart.

Again, sorry to disappoint, just something odd that I noticed and seemed to be easy to fix.

Are you totally underwhelmed? If not, you should be.

BillyMac Thu May 02, 2019 11:20am

Stayed In My Lane ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1032605)
... this proves that ''someone'' is listening and caring in the IAABO leadership. Maybe the NF will be as responsive. Have you also sent your proposal to them?

As an IAABO member, we only use IAABO mechanics and signals (I don't even have a NFHS Mechanics Manual and Signal Chart), so I "stayed in my lane".

Because of the IAABO hierarchy (certainly a two-edged sword), and because IAABO International often has representation on the NFHS Rules Committee, we have a pretty good system in place to offer rule proposals to the NFHS. Rule proposals go up the chain of command, first to our local interpreter, then to our state interpreter, then to the IAABO International Co-Coordinators of Interpreters, and if all goes well, to the NFHS Rules Committee.

A lot of documentation is required: the new rule, the old rule, citation numbers, a rationale, needed changes to other rules (penalties), and all casebook plays involved must be cited, and changed.

I've had three rule change proposals accepted by the NFHS: 3-3-E Defensive Match-Up, 2003-04; 4-22 Goaltending, 2015-16; and 3-5-3 Compression Shorts, 2016-17, probably because my local interpreter has a leadership role in IAABO International, thus fast tracking my proposals.

As my neighbor, Frank, often tells me, "It's always great to know a guy".

ilyazhito Thu May 02, 2019 05:18pm

North and South Dakota have approved additional signals from the men's and women's college mechanics manuals, such as the punch on player control fouls, hit to the head, 2 hands, and hit on the arm signals. Because North Dakota and Minnesota now use the restricted area arc, they have also adopted the point to arc signal. Maybe more states are approving additional signals on their own.

JRutledge Thu May 02, 2019 06:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1032623)
North and South Dakota have approved additional signals from the men's and women's college mechanics manuals, such as the punch on player control fouls, hit to the head, 2 hands, and hit on the arm signals. Because North Dakota and Minnesota now use the restricted area arc, they have also adopted the point to arc signal. Maybe more states are approving additional signals on their own.

Mechanics are not a thing that the NF can regulate what states do. This is nothing new or even unique. My state adopted many differences because of what was observed and felt it needed to be changed in basketball and many other sports. Nothing new.

Peace

BillyMac Thu May 02, 2019 06:13pm

Smoke Filled Back Rooms ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1032624)
Mechanics are not a thing that the NF can regulate what states do.

JRutledge is correct, otherwise those states that use IAABO mechanics would lose representatives on the NFHS Rules Committees, and in regard to Connecticut, we haven't.

BillyMac Thu May 02, 2019 06:29pm

He Was Going For The Ball ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1032623)
North and South Dakota have approved additional signals from the men's and women's college mechanics manuals ...

This is a signal that I wanted added to the IAABO Mechanics Manual Signal Chart:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...04cd9e5f_m.jpg

I was told that although some on the four person IAABO International Co-Coordinators of Interpreters liked the idea, it was ultimately not approved, mainly because it was not an approved NFHS signal, and they wanted NFHS and IAABO signals to be as similar as possible.

Old timers here in my little corner of Connecticut were taught, and have been using, this signal for decades, but the young'uns are not being taught the signal.

Coach: "Hey BillyMac, he was going for the ball".

BillyMac: "Didn't you see my signal coach? The intentional foul wasn't for no play on the ball, or for a jersey grab, or a push from behind, or a bear hug, or for contact away from the ball with a player clearly not involved with a play, or for contact with an inbounder. It was for excessive contact".

Coach: "Thanks for the explanation BillyMac. You're doing a great job officiating tonight. By the way, did anyone ever tell you that you look just like George Clooney?".

BillyMac: "Thanks coach. And yes, I'm told that all the time".

bucky Thu May 02, 2019 07:36pm

You rally don't need the second part. Your arms will come down by default anyway.;)

Given your officiating prowess, I am surprised that the coach used the word "tonight" in your example.:D

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 09:42am

Strike A Pose ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032627)
You really don't need the second part. Your arms will come down by default anyway.

Not before one strikes a dabbing pose.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP._...=0&w=305&h=184

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032627)
Given your officiating prowess, I am surprised that the coach used the word "tonight" in your example.

I was having a good night for a change. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

https://live.staticflickr.com/7925/3...2e9a1b65_m.jpg

SC Official Fri May 03, 2019 10:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1032623)
North and South Dakota have approved additional signals from the men's and women's college mechanics manuals, such as the punch on player control fouls, hit to the head, 2 hands, and hit on the arm signals. Because North Dakota and Minnesota now use the restricted area arc, they have also adopted the point to arc signal. Maybe more states are approving additional signals on their own.

I'd be happy to see FED add more "approved" signals if for no other reason than to shut up the blowhards that whine about "unapproved" signals.

I do find it funny that people always talk about wanting the signals that college has. I don't think men's NCAA has many, if any, more "approved" signals than high school. I think people just don't lose as much sleep about it at that level.

At the end of the day, if states see it as a big enough problem, they will make a change on their own or just not care.

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 11:11am

Shooter Has Foot Touching Three Point Line ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1032632)
... states ... will make a change on their own ...

This is another signal that I wanted added to the IAABO Mechanics Manual Signal Chart:

https://live.staticflickr.com/7682/1...ba697fe8_m.jpg

Again, I was told that although some on the four person IAABO International Co-Coordinators of Interpreters liked the idea, it was ultimately not approved, mainly because it was not an approved NFHS signal, and they wanted NFHS and IAABO signals to be as similar as possible.

We've been using this "Connecticut Only" (Connecticut is 100% IAABO) signal for almost thirty years, pointing to the floor for two point field goal attempt when shooter has a foot touching three point line. Sure we could just not give the three point attempt signal (as we do for attempts that aren't close to the three point line), but this extra signal seems helpful to scorekeepers, coaches, and fans.

Raymond Fri May 03, 2019 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032633)
This is another signal that I wanted added to the IAABO Mechanics Manual Signal Chart:

https://live.staticflickr.com/7682/1...ba697fe8_m.jpg

Again, I was told that although some on the four person IAABO International Co-Coordinators of Interpreters liked the idea, it was ultimately not approved, mainly because it was not an approved NFHS signal, and they wanted NFHS and IAABO signals to be as similar as possible.

We've been using this "Connecticut Only" (Connecticut is 100% IAABO) signal for almost thirty years, pointing to the floor for two point field goal attempt when shooter has a foot touching three point line. Sure we could just not give the three point attempt signal (as we do for attempts that aren't close to the three point line), but this extra signal seems helpful to scorekeepers, coaches, and fans.

Been using that signal since day one as an official.

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 02:37pm

Personal Use ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032634)
Been using that signal since day one as an official.

Personal, or local association, or state association signal?

Raymond Fri May 03, 2019 02:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032635)
Personal, or local association, or state association signal?

Common sense communication.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 02:58pm

Common Sense ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032636)
Common sense communication.

I certainly agree that the signal is a good common sense communication tool, which is why I tried to get IAABO International to adopt it officially.

Is this signal taught to your new officials? Is is universally used (accepted) locally, and/or statewide?

I believe that you are an NCAA official, do you use this common sense communication signal in your college games (I don't believe it's a college signal, but I may be wrong, being extremely ignorant in matters of college mechanics)?

Raymond Fri May 03, 2019 03:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032637)
Is this signal taught to your new officials? Is is universally used (accepted) locally, and/or statewide?

I believe that you are an NCAA official, do you use this common sense communication signal in your college games (I don't believe it's a college signal, but I may be wrong, being ignorant of college mechanics matters)?

The person who got me involved in officiating was a college official, and additionally he was a military man like myself. Common Sense communications is what he taught me. I didn't care or seek out whether or not it was approved by others There were some who made comments about it, including one of my first mentors who is now a D1/D2 women's supervisor of officials. I have found that NCAA Men's officials are far less rigid than NCAA Women's officials about unauthorized signals.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

bucky Fri May 03, 2019 03:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032634)
Been using that signal since day one as an official.

+1 however I do not necessarily hold it for a great amount of time, maybe about a second. I just point, and in some cases, ever so slightly, bend/lean towards the location.

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 03:53pm

Teach It To Our Young'uns ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032638)
The person who got me involved in officiating was a college official, and additionally he was a military man like myself. Common Sense communications is what he taught me. I didn't care or seek out whether or not it was approved by others There were some who made comments about it, including one of my first mentors who is now a D1/D2 women's supervisor of officials. I have found that NCAA Men's officials are far less rigid than NCAA Women's officials about unauthorized signals.

Who can quibble about good communication, but I'm curious about how universally used (accepted) the signal is for high school games in your local area and/or state?

Every official in Connecticut uses it, we teach it to our young'uns.

I'm disappointed that IAABO International didn't approve of our state "approved" signal.

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 03:55pm

Universal ???
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032639)
+1

Same questions for bucky:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032640)
I'm curious about how universally used (accepted) the signal is for high school games in your local area and/or state?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032637)
Is this signal taught to your new officials?

Why doesn't this signal catch on more universally on the high school level, i.e. NFHS, IAABO, etc.?

Am I missing any negatives about the signal? It seems helpful to scorekeepers, coaches, and fans.

Rich Fri May 03, 2019 04:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032641)
Same questions for bucky:











Why doesn't this signal catch on more universally on the high school level, i.e. NFHS, IAABO, etc.)?



Am I missing any negatives about the signal? It seems helpful to scorekeepers, coaches, and fans.



I wasn't aware there were people NOT usimg this signal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 05:30pm

Busy Signal ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1032642)
I wasn't aware there were people NOT usimg this signal.

Then again, why doesn't this signal catch on more universally as "approved" or "official" or "accepted" on the high school level, i.e. NFHS, IAABO, etc.? And again, am I missing any negatives about the signal? It seems helpful to scorekeepers, coaches, and fans.

BillyMac Fri May 03, 2019 05:51pm

Hot Potato ...
 
I just checked online. While the Excessive Contact Intentional Foul signal is an official NCAA signal, the No Three Point Attempt Signal doesn't appear to be an official NCAA signal.

What does IAABO, the NFHS, and the NCAA have against this No Three Point Attempt communication (information) signal?

ilyazhito Fri May 03, 2019 10:20pm

I have no idea. I also use this signal on shots that are close to being 3-pointers, but are not, and I have been the butt of jokes about my adherence to approved mechanics. I think that it is a good and informative signal, just like the "not closely guarded" signal, and can alleviate confusion in situations that look like a 3-pointer is taken, but where there is actually no 3-point shot.

JRutledge Fri May 03, 2019 10:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1032632)
I'd be happy to see FED add more "approved" signals if for no other reason than to shut up the blowhards that whine about "unapproved" signals.

I do find it funny that people always talk about wanting the signals that college has. I don't think men's NCAA has many, if any, more "approved" signals than high school. I think people just don't lose as much sleep about it at that level.

At the end of the day, if states see it as a big enough problem, they will make a change on their own or just not care.

Actually, I found about 17 different signals that the NF did not have like "Cylinder fouls" or "Chucking." Now, this is splitting hairs as some of these are just based on some different rules that do not take place at the NF level like shot clock signals for either violation or resetting the clock to 20 seconds for a FC foul.

I do think people spend too much time worrying about what the other levels do and do not realize that what they do is more advanced for a reason. We have HS official that cannot do basic things right but they want more signals.

Peace

BillyMac Sat May 04, 2019 06:53am

It's Back ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ilyazhito (Post 1032645)
I think that it is a good and informative signal, just like the "not closely guarded" signal, and can alleviate confusion in situations ...

I believe that the Not Closely Guarded signal is an official IAABO International signal. Here in Connecticut we used it for a while (unofficially, Connecticut only signal), then were told not to use it (if one is not counting, there is no closely guarded situation), and then, unannounced, IAABO International made it an official IAABO International signal.

SC Official Sat May 04, 2019 10:23am

My “not closely guarded” signal is my lack of counting.

As for close 2-pointers, most tables can’t comprehend that “no touchdown signal = 2 points.”

BillyMac Sat May 04, 2019 03:50pm

Confused In Connecticut ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1032648)
My “not closely guarded” signal is my lack of counting.”

As was mine for the first half of my career, then we switched to a "unofficial" not closely guarded spread arms signal, the we went back to "not counting" as the "signal" (IAABO International slap on the wrist), and now were back to a not closely guarded spread arms signal, but now it's "official" (however it was unannounced).

Raymond Sun May 05, 2019 07:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1032648)
My “not closely guarded” signal is my lack of counting.


...

My "not closely guarded" signal is for one purpose, to keep coaches from asking/commenting about my lack of a 5 second count. I work with too many officials who don't count when they should.


Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

BillyMac Sun May 05, 2019 08:22am

Six Feet Not Three Feet ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032650)
I work with too many officials who don't count when they should.

Same problem here in Connecticut. We've been told that we're not rewarding good defense and have been shown various "six foot" distances with various lines on the court to use as a reference.

BillyMac Sun May 05, 2019 08:26am

Stop Complaining ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1032650)
My "not closely guarded" signal is for one purpose, to keep coaches from asking/commenting about my lack of a 5 second count.

Before the spread arms signal was "unofficial" or "official", I was using it for the same purpose, "Stop complaining coach, not quite six feet".

No complaints, no spread arms signal.

Rich Sun May 05, 2019 08:37am

Mechanics Creep
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032651)
Same problem here in my little corner of Connecticut. We've been told that we're not rewarding good defense and have been shown various "six foot" distances with various lines on the court to use as a reference.



Do you get paid every time you use the phrase "my little corner of Connecticut?" Oh, FFS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

BillyMac Sun May 05, 2019 09:14am

All Four Corners And Everything In Between ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1032653)
Do you get paid every time you use the phrase "my little corner of Connecticut?"

Fixed it.

Reviewed my post and found it to be not accurate.

"Not rewarding the defense" was not a problem only associated with my local board, it was pointed out by the IAABO International interpreter who observed officials from all of our Connecticut local boards at our state tournament semis and finals.

Throughout my career, two of my local interpreters have also been Connecticut state interpreters, sometimes making difficult to ascertain if an issue being discussed is a statewide issue, or a local issue.

The Connecticut tourism board sends me a check every time I mention Connecticut in a post.

Every little bit helps when one is retired and is on a fixed income.

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.F...=0&w=406&h=163

bucky Mon May 06, 2019 09:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1032641)
Same questions for bucky:


Why doesn't this signal catch on more universally on the high school level, i.e. NFHS, IAABO, etc.?

Am I missing any negatives about the signal? It seems helpful to scorekeepers, coaches, and fans.

I am one of the very few that point and by point I mean holding two fingers down towards where it occurred. Others will, when it is a two-point shot but close to a three, immediately and adamantly signal to the table that it was a two by pointing two fingers, like the peace sign.

I do not claim to be an expert but I will claim to be the best at trying to get better in any way. Around our area, officials do not have the same level of care. They do not strive to get better by attending training meetings, camps, etc. Very few are concerned with tests, POE's, rule/mechanic changes, etc. They simply do not have to care as there are not enough officials. There are no younger/newer officials either. It is very discouraging.

Use a new mechanic for clarity? Most around here do not use the current mechanics very well.:mad:

BillyMac Tue May 07, 2019 05:32pm

Double Check ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1032667)
... will, when it is a two-point shot but close to a three, immediately and adamantly signal to the table that it was a two by pointing two fingers, like the peace sign.

Many of us will do that (as well as an audible "Two") as a "double check" after we've already pointed to the three point line on a close two point the attempt.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.K...=0&w=300&h=300


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