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Kansas Ref Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:49pm

Pregame festivities
 
Invariably during the pregame an official will say such things as:

1. "this is an extension of the classroom, so we expect....[blah blah blah]". I never say such a thing as this because the athletic competition is nothing like a classroom where the expectations are different.

2. "who are the speaking captains for your team?". I never say this, I always refer to them as "team representatives". For the simple reason that, I don't know what a "speaking captain" is, and I will never remember the number of said individual player. Also, does the "speaking captain" [if you can remember the jersey numbers of them] have any rights that are above that of the regular players? During a game I will address any player's question--regardless of their status.

3. a coach looking off into space during the pregame conference and/or nodding their heads in a manner to suggest "let's just get on with this game ok".

**One thing I have done/said in pregame is: "don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game". I do this because players and coaches know they can "get away with one infraction" and the Rule for allowing one instance is so abused. I did admin a T during the season and neither coach nor player complained, not even a murmur---all though I did hear a fan yell--don't they get a warning?!

BillyMac Tue Feb 05, 2019 01:28pm

Short And Sweet ...
 
Here's mine:

Players legally equipped.
Players wearing uniforms properly.
Practice good sportsmanship.

New IAABO (for IAABO members only) mechanics (but the NFHS rule hasn't changed) have pretty much done away with the need for a "speaking captain" (unless one gets a rare request for a "lineup").

Jump Ball. The Referee or tossing official checks for readiness with table and partner (no longer checks for readiness with the captains).

#olderthanilook Tue Feb 05, 2019 01:29pm

My pre-game:

1. Are your players properly and legally equipped?

2. **

3. Do you have any questions for me or the crew?

4. Good luck to both of you.

**I reserve this spot for a statement related to any type of NFHS and/or local emphasis i.e. coaching box, uniform requirements (which is somewhat redundant given statement 1, etc. I may or may not choose to add one of those...just depends.

genetoy71 Tue Feb 05, 2019 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
...**One thing I have done/said in pregame is: "don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game". I do this because players and coaches know they can "get away with one infraction" and the Rule for allowing one instance is so abused. I did admin a T during the season and neither coach nor player complained, not even a murmur---all though I did hear a fan yell--don't they get a warning?!

NFHS rules require a delay warning to be recorded in the scorebook and for the head coach to be notified.

BillyMac Tue Feb 05, 2019 01:30pm

Toto, I Have A Feeling We’re Not In Kansas Anymore ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
... don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game ...

Kansas rules?

Raymond Tue Feb 05, 2019 01:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
Invariably during the pregame an official will say such things as:

1. "this is an extension of the classroom, so we expect....[blah blah blah]". I never say such a thing as this because the athletic competition is nothing like a classroom where the expectations are different.

2. "who are the speaking captains for your team?". I never say this, I always refer to them as "team representatives". For the simple reason that, I don't know what a "speaking captain" is, and I will never remember the number of said individual player. Also, does the "speaking captain" [if you can remember the jersey numbers of them] have any rights that are above that of the regular players? During a game I will address any player's question--regardless of their status.

3. a coach looking off into space during the pregame conference and/or nodding their heads in a manner to suggest "let's just get on with this game ok".

**One thing I have done/said in pregame is: "don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game". I do this because players and coaches know they can "get away with one infraction" and the Rule for allowing one instance is so abused. I did admin a T during the season and neither coach nor player complained, not even a murmur---all though I did hear a fan yell--don't they get a warning?!

1) I've now starting introducing the crew (first names in college/Mr. Lastname for HS) and tell the players to approach us just as they would a teacher/professor.

2) I ask for numbers just out of ceremony of acknowledging the speaking captains. Not doing so would make me stick out from every other referee I work with, both college and HS.

3) With coaches, I shake hands and give them my first name. No other conversation except maybe a reminder about the coaching box if I have coach who's a known wanderer.

**Your pregame warning is no less extraneous than any other statements you consider as "blah, blah, blah" by other officials, plus is against the rules concerning DOG warnings. Plus the message is not going to get to the other players. You get a coach who knows the rules and you will have a problem that will not be defensible to your assignor/supervisor/state association.

bob jenkins Tue Feb 05, 2019 03:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
lso, does the "speaking captain" [if you can remember the jersey numbers of them] have any rights that are above that of the regular players?

No. But, it is the player to whom I will go first if I need to address something about another player.

And, in my experience, if you use the captain's first name, then every other player thinks you know all the first names, and the behavior improves when they think you know them as a person and not just as a uniform number.

SNIPERBBB Tue Feb 05, 2019 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1029838)
1) I've now starting introducing the crew (first names in college/Mr. Lastname for HS) and tell the players to approach us just as they would a teacher/professor.

2) I ask for numbers just out of ceremony of acknowledging the speaking captains. Not doing so would make me stick out from every other referee I work with, both college and HS.

3) With coaches, I shake hands and give them my first name. No other conversation except maybe a reminder about the coaching box if I have coach who's a known wanderer.

**Your pregame warning is no less extraneous than any other statements you consider as "blah, blah, blah" by other officials, plus is against the rules concerning DOG warnings. Plus the message is not going to get to the other players. You get a coach who knows the rules and you will have a problem that will not be defensible to your assignor/supervisor/state association.

You'd fit in fine down here where I'm at if you don't ask for speaking captains...that's pretty much my pregame. Only the 30+ year vets and their sycophants still do so.

Raymond Tue Feb 05, 2019 04:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1029840)
No. But, it is the player to whom I will go first if I need to address something about another player.

And, in my experience, if you use the captain's first name, then every other player thinks you know all the first names, and the behavior improves when they think you know them as a person and not just as a uniform number.

My last college crew chief game I asked for the captains names (each team only sent 1 player). I also use either the coach's name or the team's name when doing my 1st horn notifications. (1st horn Lakers; 1st horn Luke)

And if I know a player's name I will use it in communications with not only that player, but his teammates and coaches. "That's 5 fouls on TJ"; "Hey, can you ask Paul to tuck his shirt for me please?"

HokiePaul Tue Feb 05, 2019 04:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
Also, does the "speaking captain" [if you can remember the jersey numbers of them] have any rights that are above that of the regular players? During a game I will address any player's question--regardless of their status.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1029840)
No. But, it is the player to whom I will go first if I need to address something about another player.

The captain can request a defensive matchup if there are 3 or more substitutes. Never seen this used until this year when we had the HC coach tell us before the game that his captains would be requesting a matchup (the team he was playing was known to roll 5 subs every few minutes). In addition to the speaking captain, we allowed the other 2 players who joined the pregame conference to request a matchup when the speaking captain was on the bench.

Kansas Ref Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:24pm

thanks so much for the insights.

bas2456 Wed Feb 06, 2019 01:01am

1: Are your players legally equipped?
-It's here I'll address any uniform issues I wasn't able to get beforehand or just spotted.

2: This may be just Illinois, but we're required now to ask if there's a trainer on site, and if the visiting team hasn't brought their own trainer (they never do), if they're ok with the home trainer treating an injured visiting player (uh DUH!!)

3: Coaches please let us know full or 30 on timeouts and have them ready to play by the second horn

4: Players...good sportsmanship and please help us get the ball if it rolls away

5: Have fun, good luck.

It took me about 6 times as long to type that as it does to say all of it. I don't ask for speaking captains because I won't remember who they are ten seconds after they've left the huddle.

Nevadaref Wed Feb 06, 2019 01:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
**One thing I have done/said in pregame is: "don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game". I do this because players and coaches know they can "get away with one infraction" and the Rule for allowing one instance is so abused. I did admin a T during the season and neither coach nor player complained, not even a murmur---all though I did hear a fan yell--don't they get a warning?!

By rule, the team gets one warning for an action such as this. Skipping that with a statement during the pregame is incorrect and overstepping your role as a game official. Just because you don’t like the way that the delay warnings work doesn’t mean that you get to eliminate them from the game.

frezer11 Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by HokiePaul (Post 1029843)
The captain can request a defensive matchup if there are 3 or more substitutes. Never seen this used until this year when we had the HC coach tell us before the game that his captains would be requesting a matchup (the team he was playing was known to roll 5 subs every few minutes). In addition to the speaking captain, we allowed the other 2 players who joined the pregame conference to request a matchup when the speaking captain was on the bench.

Let's say that Team A has 2 players designated "captains." If they happen to both be on the bench, does that team forfeit its right to request a defensive matchup? I think if placed in this situation (and I think I've only had a defensive matchup request once or twice ever), I would honor a request from anyone.

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

That leads me to believe that regardless of a captains meeting, and who attends/doesn't attend, or is designated/not designated, one player on the floor must be considered the captain. (If there are multiple, then the speaking captain serves as captain during that time).

SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 09:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
**One thing I have done/said in pregame is: "don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game". I do this because players and coaches know they can "get away with one infraction" and the Rule for allowing one instance is so abused. I did admin a T during the season and neither coach nor player complained, not even a murmur---all though I did hear a fan yell--don't they get a warning?!

Sorry, but you were wrong and the fan was right. You ignored the rule and overstepped your bounds. If I was your partner I would have come to you to rescind the T, and if you stuck with it I'd call the assigner and not defend you to the coach, either. You can't give a pregame warning for delay.

As for my pregame dog-and-pony show, it lasts 15 seconds max (we do one meeting here with captains and coaches together). I'm one of very few officials in my area that doesn't ask who the "speaking captain" is, and I couldn't care less. The only thing I say to the coaches other than "have a good game" is the stupid "properly equipped" question because it's required by rule.

Officials that think they're impressive because they recite the entire rule book in their pregame meetings are generally miserable to work with and get a few eye-rolls from the coaches, as well.

BillyMac Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:11am

Still Valid ???
 
I pulled these off my hard drive. I don't know if they're still valid, all three are several years old.

The National High School Federation and your state association require officials to enforce sportsmanship rules. High school athletics emphasize positive values. All of us have worked hard to create a sense of teamwork, respect, responsibility and perspective. We remind you that we expect good behavior and will quickly penalize misconduct. We encourage and appreciate your help. Let the competition reflect mutual respect among participants and officials. Coaches please certify that your players are legally equipped and uniformed according the NFHS rules. Good luck and have a great contest! (New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association, Kentucky High School Athletic Association)

"PIAA requires all registered sports' officials to enforce the sportsmanship rules for coaches and contestants. Actions meant to demean opposing contestants, teams, spectators and officials are not in the highest ideals of interscholastic education and will not be tolerated. Let today's contest reflect mutual respect. Coaches please certify to the contest official(s) that your players are legally equipped and uniformed according to NFHS rules and PIAA adoptions. Good luck in today's contest." (Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association)

To captains: The FHSAA requires officials to enforce all rules regarding unsportsmanlike conduct by players and coaches. Violators will be ejected. It is strongly suggested that you remind your teammates and coaches of this policy. Additionally, this is a simple reminder that jewelry is not allowed, and jerseys must be tucked in during play if they are designed to be worn in. To coaches: Coaches, do you certify that your players are properly equipped and will demonstrate sportsmanlike behavior during today’s contest? (Florida High School Activities Association)

sdoebler Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:42am

Players:
1. Respect Us
2. Respect Each other
3. Respect the Game
Good luck, have fun

Coaches:
Let us know if you want a 30 or 60 so we can let the other coach know
Please respect the coaching box
Good luck, Have fun

#olderthanilook Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:48am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bas2456 (Post 1029858)
1: Are your players legally equipped?
-It's here I'll address any uniform issues I wasn't able to get beforehand or just spotted.

2: This may be just Illinois, but we're required now to ask if there's a trainer on site, and if the visiting team hasn't brought their own trainer (they never do), if they're ok with the home trainer treating an injured visiting player (uh DUH!!)

3: Coaches please let us know full or 30 on timeouts and have them ready to play by the second horn

4: Players...good sportsmanship and please help us get the ball if it rolls away

5: Have fun, good luck.

It took me about 6 times as long to type that as it does to say all of it. I don't ask for speaking captains because I won't remember who they are ten seconds after they've left the huddle.

Yes...this.

I do address the players first before my 25 seconds with the coaches...

Pre-amble: Players, play with sportsmanship. Stop playing when a whistle sounds. Hand the ball to an official. Any questions (We never get any)? You can go back to your warmup. Commence 25 second talk with coaches.

Total pre game: < 60 seconds.

Play ball!

SE Minnestoa Re Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:24pm

Introduce us by Mr. Last Name
Tell the captains that they may respectfully ask us questions
Tell the captains that we expect good sportsmanship from their team
Ask coaches if their team is legally equipped.

Let them continue to warm up.

JWP Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:46pm

If you do junior high games, you often find yourselves in quirky gyms. I use the pregame meeting to cover anything weird with the court, such as auxiliary baskets that are hanging on the edges of the court. Or if there is limited (or in some cases, no) room on the sidelines/baselines, telling both teams they will have to provide a little extra room for the inbounder.

Locally, we are phasing out the captain's meetings and instead meeting with the coaches, giving them quick reminders on letting us know what size of time out they want, coaching boxes, breaking the huddle at the first horn, etc. Seems to be helping.

Scooby Wed Feb 06, 2019 03:17pm

While the are differences between the the classroom and sports, they are not totally separate. This is from the NFHS website, so they appear to believe that sports is an extension of the classroom.

"It is understandable that the first responsibility of principals and superintendents is to hire the best possible person for classroom instruction. However, many also agree that the playing field, gym and auditorium are extensions of the classroom. This means a coach’s selection, preparation and continued professional development is equally as important as novice teacher preparation."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref (Post 1029830)
Invariably during the pregame an official will say such things as:

1. "this is an extension of the classroom, so we expect....[blah blah blah]". I never say such a thing as this because the athletic competition is nothing like a classroom where the expectations are different.

2. "who are the speaking captains for your team?". I never say this, I always refer to them as "team representatives". For the simple reason that, I don't know what a "speaking captain" is, and I will never remember the number of said individual player. Also, does the "speaking captain" [if you can remember the jersey numbers of them] have any rights that are above that of the regular players? During a game I will address any player's question--regardless of their status.

3. a coach looking off into space during the pregame conference and/or nodding their heads in a manner to suggest "let's just get on with this game ok".

**One thing I have done/said in pregame is: "don't interfere or toss the ball to me after it has gone thru the net, this is delay of game, and this pregame warning serves as your official warning, it's a T if done in the game". I do this because players and coaches know they can "get away with one infraction" and the Rule for allowing one instance is so abused. I did admin a T during the season and neither coach nor player complained, not even a murmur---all though I did hear a fan yell--don't they get a warning?!


SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 03:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 1029897)
While the are differences between the the classroom and sports, they are not totally separate. This is from the NFHS website, so they appear to believe that sports is an extension of the classroom.

"It is understandable that the first responsibility of principals and superintendents is to hire the best possible person for classroom instruction. However, many also agree that the playing field, gym and auditorium are extensions of the classroom. This means a coach’s selection, preparation and continued professional development is equally as important as novice teacher preparation."

Great, that is for the coaches and administrators to adhere to. That statement is as much political theater as it is reality. Sport is sport, at the end of the day.

My expectations of sportsmanship are not based on any sort of "the court is an extension of the classroom" lip service. And I wouldn't be caught dead saying that in a pregame meeting.

To each his own.

BillyMac Wed Feb 06, 2019 04:35pm

Co-Curricular School Activities ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1029898)
My expectations of sportsmanship are not based on any sort of "the court is an extension of the classroom" lip service.

It's not just lip service here in Connecticut. On court, on field, unsporting conduct is not only handled by the on court, on field, officials, and the state interscholastic sports governing body, it's also handled by the school principal, or assistant principal, which in severe cases, can lead to a student athlete being suspended not only from an athletic contest, or a sports team, but also suspended from school, or subject to some other school disciplinary actions outside the realm of athletics.

Same thing can happen to kids on the debate team that violate curfew on overnight trips, or kids in the fishing club that decide to have a few beers on a fishing trip. Or the French club, or the drama club, etc.

These are extracurricular school activities, "extra", but still school activities, paid for out of the Board of Education budget. Some school systems call these co-curricular school activities.

After over thirty years in the classroom here in Connecticut, involved with both sports, and non-sports, school activities, these activities are definitely an extension of the classroom and the school day.

Compare the sportsmanship shown by coaches and players in interscholastic games to the sportsmanship shown by same in recreation, travel, AAU games, etc. Not even close.

Of course the usual caveat, when in Rome ...

SC Official Wed Feb 06, 2019 05:36pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029901)
It's not just lip service here in Connecticut...

But it still has nothing to do with how I enforce sportsmanship. In the rare event I work "offseason" ball I'm just as, if not more, strict on misbehavior. If a principal/AD doesn't like the way a player or coach is acting, that is not my problem. So that phrase isn't really relevant to me.

Heck, you don't hear that phrase at the college level and on average I think college coaches behave better than high school coaches. At the very least they're more intelligent and know how to pick their spots and interact with officials. And college officials are less hesitant to issue technical fouls than high school officials, in my experience.

ODog Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:27pm

In my state, we're lucky on two fronts:
1.) We don't have 30-second timeouts
2.) Coaches aren't involved in the captains' meeting

Mine is …
"Mr. X, Mr. Y and Mr. Z. No taunting, no BS, if you have questions during the game, let's talk to each other just like we're talking right now. Any questions (never)? Anything partners want to add (never)? Have fun."

20 seconds max.

frezer11 Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 1029921)
In my state, we're lucky on two fronts:
1.) We don't have 30-second timeouts

I didn't know this was true in any state at any level. What state are you in? How does the timeout structure work?

SC Official Thu Feb 07, 2019 09:13am

I don't do the "let us know 30 or 60" thing during pregame. The coaches know all that stuff already, and me reminding them isn't going to all of a sudden make them better about it if they tend to forget.

"Everyone legally equipped? Have a good game."

Raymond Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1029935)
I don't do the "let us know 30 or 60" thing during pregame. The coaches know all that stuff already, and me reminding them isn't going to all of a sudden make them better about it if they tend to forget.
...

They'll remember the first time they get charged a full (errr, 60 second) time-out when they only wanted a 30. :D

I tell my younger charges that instead asking over and over again, just pay attention to what the players do when they get to the bench area. If they sit, charge a full (my bad, 60), if they stay standing, charge a 30. Too many officials are in a rush to report the time-out; let the teams clear each other and use some common sense. It's also why I keep track of what type of time-outs the teams have remaining. Once they've used up their 30's, no need in me asking or wondering.

LRZ Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:58am

At a recent middle school game, my partner: "Purple line all around."

BillyMac Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:15am

Guardians Of The IAABO Galaxy ... ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1029939)
... a full (errr, 60 second) time-out ...

Our interpreter wants us to verbalize, "Sixty", rather than, "Full".

Why? He wants us to be "professional", and "consistent".

He's been on this for several years, well before the 2018-19 Officiating Professionalism And Use Of Proper Terminology NFHS Point of Emphasis.

I think that he got a message from the International IAABO Grand Poobah after our guys were observed in state tournament games.

It's a small thing to ask, so I'm trying, with a lot of success.

He also wants our guys to stop signaling the sixty as a double foul, with fists rather than open hands. No problem for me, I've always done it the correct way.

ODog Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1029923)
I didn't know this was true in any state at any level. What state are you in? How does the timeout structure work?

Massachusetts. Five 60-second timeouts for high school.

May sound like a lot, but in my experience at other levels that have them, 30-second timeouts are bogus and all end up being pretty close to "full" anyway.

RedAndWhiteRef Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1029942)
Our interpreter wants us to verbalize, "Sixty", rather than, "Full".

Why? He wants us to be "professional", and "consistent".

He's been on this for several years, well before the 2018-19 Officiating Professionalism And Use Of Proper Terminology NFHS Point of Emphasis.

I think that he got a message from the International IAABO Grand Poobah after our guys were observed in state tournament games.

It's a small thing to ask, so I'm trying, with a lot of success.

He also wants our guys to stop signaling the sixty as a double foul, with fists rather than open hands. No problem for me, I've always done it the correct way.

I'm in no position of authority, but that is one of my biggest pet peeves.

"Sixty" versus "Full" is splitting hairs IMO.

bas2456 Fri Feb 08, 2019 01:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 1029993)
Massachusetts. Five 60-second timeouts for high school.



May sound like a lot, but in my experience at other levels that have them, 30-second timeouts are bogus and all end up being pretty close to "full" anyway.



Only if you let them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Raymond Fri Feb 08, 2019 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ODog (Post 1029993)
Massachusetts. Five 60-second timeouts for high school.

May sound like a lot, but in my experience at other levels that have them, 30-second timeouts are bogus and all end up being pretty close to "full" anyway.

Only if officials aren't doing their jobs.

ilyazhito Fri Feb 08, 2019 09:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedAndWhiteRef (Post 1029994)
I'm in no position of authority, but that is one of my biggest pet peeves.

"Sixty" versus "Full" is splitting hairs IMO.

It isn't. In men's college games without media, a long timeout (a full timeout) is 75 seconds, unlike HS or NCAAW, where a full timeout is always 60 seconds, media or no media. NBA full timeouts that are not mandatory timeouts are also 75 seconds, and mandatory timeouts are either 2:45 for games on local television or 3:15 for games on national television. For coaches who played in college before coaching high school, it is important to show and tell about the correct high school rules, thus "60 second" timeouts. I even had a freshman and JV girls coach not know she had to sit after she received a technical foul. I told her that in high school rules, a coach who receives a technical foul automatically loses the coaching box. This is the explaining I sometimes have to do about high school rules.


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