Throw-In, or Not?
 

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

B1 releases a 'pop-fly' pass....in mid flight Team B calls a Time Out....B2 catches/possesses ball....after time-out B2 carries ball oob and completes throw-in.

I know it's not right, just trying to be funny...like BillyMac.

JV and above; high level AAU/rec ball: I can't see a situation where B1 is entirely OOB and I would allow those actions. I think it should be incumbent for coaches to properly train their players not to interfere with the ball if they are not supposed to be the thrower-in after a made basket.

Lower, less competitive levels, I would give them a mulligan.

I think it depends on what the defense is doing as well. If there is no press, and there is no doubt that B2 is the planned in-bounder, then I'm probably going to let this go. If there's a press on however, I agree with you, I don't see a scenario where I don't call it, I think that puts the defense at a disadvantage

You are both trying. Very trying. ;)

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

4-42-1: The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.
7-6-2: The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

Other than the reasonable discretion employed on a lower-level game, I'm trying to put all these together to come up with a reason not to call a throw-in violation.

That gets to the crux of this philosophical /theoretical discussion.

Is any "propelling" of the ball (I am trying NOT to use rule book terms) of the ball for OOB to IB a throw-in pass, or do we need to determine whether it's with"intentto get the ball in play (that's a rule book term) so as to advance toward and score a goal."

Freddy has given us the Rule citations to tell us what we have. B1 has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds. That means that the Ball is at Disposal of Team B and the Five-Second Count should have started.

Below JrHS I can possibly see cutting B1 some slack, but JrHS and above, Team B's Throw-in ended when it touched B2 and one of two things can happen as B2 moves toward the End Line. 1) B2 will commit a Traveling Violation first, or 2) B2 will cause the Ball to go OoB. In either case, Team B has committed a Violation and Team A will receive the Ball for a Designated Spot Throw-in nearest the Spot of the Violation.

MTD, Sr.

I believe that take fails to take into account the intent and purpose of the rules. We should always officiate with that in mind. We are not robots and we need to use some discretion when officiating.

I do not know about you, but when B1 is completely OoB with the Ball, I am starting my Five-Second Count. And I have to ask you: How do you explain to Team A's HC that there was no Travel or OoB Violations after B1 has taken the Ball completely OoB after A1's FG. There is nothing in the Throw-in Rules that allow for "intent".

MTD, Sr.

Starting the 5 count has nothing to do with the position of the player in relations to in or out of bounds. It has to do with the ball being at the disposal.

I would agree with intent. Say its the star PG in a close game with full court press OOB and the clumsy 8th man just in to give a player a 30 second breather. Pretty obvious they want their PG to be the one to receive the pass. It would have to be obvious that (1) the player inbounding is giving it up to the player inbounds who is (2) clearly on his/her way to be the actual inbounder. Anything short of that, possible violation depending on what happens.

deecee:

No where in the Throw-in Rule will one find the word "intent" nor will it be found in any NFHS Casebook Play or NCAA Men's and Women's Casebook Play or Approved Ruling. If B1 has PC of the Ball and is standing completely Out-of-Bounds the Ball is at Team B's Disposal and the Five Second Count had better be underway.

I can give you a Joe Willie "guarantee" that if you let Team B pull off this type of Throw-in that you will be "whacking" Team A's HC and A-HC has an absolute right to want to be beside himself.

MTD, Sr.

I have to quote Nevada here, although it pains me :D, and he's 100% correct.

Intent is implied in several scenarios in general in the rule book. You can elect to call this a violation, I may or may not depending on the circumstances. I won't loose sleep if we worked a game and you did.

Intent And Purpose ...
 

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ml#post1013862

One needs both the rulebook language and intent and purpose to interpret this situation correctly, which may be redundant because intent and purpose is part of the rulebook.

Is it implied in the definition of a throw-in pass: "an attempt to put the ball in play" (or something like that)? If the action was not such an attempt (e.g., it was just giving the ball to the person who was then to make such an attempt), it wouldn't be a throw-in pass and the restrictions wouldn't apply.

Good For Horseshoes, Good For Hand Grenades, Good For Throwin ...
 

^This

Not even necessarily an underhand toss.

A1 makes a FG. B1 takes the Ball completely OoB and is immediately Guarded by A1; the T starts a Five Second Count when B1 takes his position OoB with the Ball. B2, who is Inbounds starts toward B1 to become the Thrower and B1 tosses him the Ball and B2 catches the Ball while he is still at least three steps Inbounds as proceeds to walk OoB with the Ball. What do you have?

MTD, Sr.

When B2, with the ball, has moved beyond the limitations of a pivot foot, traveling shall be called.;)

This is correct, provided this:

An official who prematurely started a five-second count.

I passed on a potential violation tonight. Inner city girls team getting throttled by 20 in the second half. No press, girl has ball at disposal OOB after a made basket and I start my count. She hands the ball inbounds to a teammate who she wanted to be the thrower. Teammate with ball inbounds steps OOB and throws in the ball. Winning teams fans went nuts and started yelling how this isn’t 3rd grade anymore, blah blah blah. Technically a violation but I was ok passing on this one. Anything to wind up those fans (notorious for being bad). :cool:

Throw-Initis Interruptis
 

This happened last night:
Throw-In Foibles

Nice Video ...
 

Nice video Freddy. Thanks.

Perfect for this thread.

Didn't like his signal.

Either pass on the call (topic of this thread), or call a travel.

He didn't pass, not sure what he called?

He had started his count when the first player (barely) got out of bounds, so he ruled ball was at disposal.

Was his count (as Nevadaref stated) premature?

He was somewhat surprised in a momentary lapse of complacency by what occurred during the waning running minutes of a 50-point game. Verbalized, after a late whistle, that it was a traveling violation but didn't signal it. What was going through his mind was, "Hey, that's just about exactly what happened in that thread on the officiating.com forum we've been discussing this past week." You have all that going through your mind at that moment, you'd forget to signal too. :)
Not sure who the official is...

1) When is the Five Second Count to begin? When the Ball is at the Disposal of the Throwing Team.

2) What is one of the ways for the Ball to be at the Disposal of the Throwing Team? When a Player of the Throwing Team has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds.

3) A1's FGA is successful. B1 takes possession of the Ball and then takes the Ball and positions himself completely Out-of-Bounds behind Team B's Backcourt End Line. When is the Ball at Team B's Disposal? RULING: When B1 positions himself completely Out-of-Bounds behind Team B's Backcourt End Line. Also, see Item (1) above.

MTD, Sr.

Nice, But By Rule ???
 

Like, "When a Player of the Throwing Team has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds", but is this NFHS rule language based, or intent and purpose based?

4-4-7-d: A ball is at the disposal of a player when it is: Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.

Also like, "one of the ways", allowing for some odd occurrences (i.e., nobody shows up to make the inbounds pay).

Yes and yes.

MTD, Sr.

Can't tell if Nevada is serious? I am going to presume that he is joking. I doubt that Nevada would let B3 then do it, then B4, then B5, then B1 again, etc. for eternity.;)

I would venture to say he IS serious. Especially based on the video.

I would like to think we know a violation when we see one. I didn't see one in the video :eek:

I would also add, there is usually some verbalization going on which helps us determine when it is "@ the disposal". "I got it". "Jimmy take it out" etc...

I did not have a violation in the video. There is no doubt that the kid that initially had the ball was in the wrong place and the correct player was coming to administer the throw in. Both these kids look confused and it's way too obvious. If I had any inkling that it was a "trick" or a deceitful action I would have a traveling violation. This isn't what the intent or spirit of the rule is/was for.

Does not go completely Out of Bounds
 

This is from one of my games. I am not skilled on 'chipping out' a clip.
Go to 5:15 into the video. Player DOES NOT go OOB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStIAr_HnBQ

This raises an interesting (to me) question -- at what point did you decide it was intended to be a throw-in, and not just giving the ball to the player who was supposed to take it out of bounds? Suppose White 23 had taken the ball OOB -- would the play have been legal? If so, then White 12's pass was not a(n attempted) throw-in? And, if it wasn't an attempted throw-in, then what would you have if White 12 HAD BEEN out of bounds, throw the ball in the same manner to White 23 and White 23 then went out of bonds?

Are we talking about the same video? The one Freddy posted? The kid who "wanted" to take the ball out of bounds clearly wanted to be the in-bounder, but I think the one who actually did thought that his throw was the actual throw in. Not to mention, you have defenders right there who are confused by the move. The first defender in the key is going to guard the 2nd kid, if he thought that it wasn't a throw in, then he's probably chasing the other one up the court after he threw it.

Deecee, you bring up a great point though, the spirit and intent of the rule. If there is no question from EITHER team that it's not an in-bound attempt, fair enough, and I'd play on too, but if there is any doubt from either team, then I think it should count as the in-bound.

Real, Not Hypothetical, Situations ...
 

Nice video Zoochy. Thanks.

Perfect for this thread.

Once 23 passed to 3, the throwin violation had to be called. The original "throwin pass" may have been made in confusion, but the next pass was part of playing basketball.

I should have been more clear. I was referencing Freddy's video.

I have bigger fish to fry in every game so I will not nitpick at this. But rules are pretty clear. B1 picks up ball or it’s in his vicinity/ at disposal...count starts. That’s just the rule. He tosses it to B2 inbounds..B2 can pass it to someone else without going OB to do it.
Again, if it’s bang bang that close I’m not going to make a call just to prove I know the rule. On the other hand I don’t like rewarding dumbness...This is something taught in 3rd grade...

Same here!

Did anyone notice C official come in the screen signaling a travel?

That's because trail's whistle was so late due to the unexpected nature of the situation that happened, as explained in a previous post. Center saw it in his periphery and blew his whistle late when he identified that trail hadn't yet.

I watched the original video and felt the first kid never actually went out of bounds. He released the ball to the other kid and his and his left foot appears to still be on the inbound side. I think the ref should have simply continued his initial 5 second count. I believe that the ref did not look at the feet of the original inbounder. Now, presuming that the first thrower is out of bounds, then indeed, there is a violation.


Zoochy had a nice video and I would offer a suggestion. Notice the level of play and the amount of people in the gym. These kids are young and having trouble doing some very basic things. As a ref, you are a coach..for both teams. The rules almost have to be completely forgotten and this play is a perfect example. Clearly, the original kid was not trying to inbound the ball and wanted the receiver to inbound it. Clearly, the receiver thought the first kid did inbound it and began play. As I said, these kids confuse easily, especially with each other. This is the perfect time, as an official, to be aware of what is happening. Once you notice this confusion, just mutter to take the ball out. As I am watching the ball/player/confusion develop, I found myself saying "take it out white, take it out white." It does not have to be loud, just enough for the involved kids to hear. They would quickly react to this instruction and play would continue without a stoppage to the flow. No one will say anything. Do this in a V/JV game? No, but the lower the level the more of a coach you should become. The same goes for 3 seconds ("get out 23, get out 23"), 5 seconds, etc. During dead balls, reiterate something to the offender. The kids need help. it really is on a case by case scenario. Many times, even the coaches need help coaching at the younger levels.

I don't get paid enough to coach and officiate at the same time:)

Do you also help serve hotdogs at halftime?

A1 takes the Ball OoB. T correctly starts a Five Second Count. A1 passes the Ball to A2. The Throw-in ends when the Ball touches A2. A2 gains PC of the Ball and the T starts a Ten Second Count. A2 commits a Traveling Violation and then steps OoB with the Ball. The T correctly stops play for "a Violation" by Team A. I am not sure whether it was for Traveling or for Causing the Ball to go OoB. But the a Violation did occur.

MTD, Sr.

W1 commits a Throw-in Violation and the T calls it immediately.

There was a very long thread in this Forum a number of years ago (when our FB Friend was still active (:p, I am sorry but he was quite active in the Thread and if my memory serves me correctly he was instrumental in the NFHS issuing an official Rules Interpretation stating the this indeed was a Throw-in Violation) about this very same Play. And the NFHS issued the previously mentioned Rules Interpretation.

MTD, Sr.

I understand. Keep in mind however that adding a little coaching, at younger levels, decreases the amount of officiating. It actually results in more value for your dollar.;)

College game last night. V makes free throw H1 grabs ball and steps OOB for throw-in. H2 starts walking towards end line obviously wanting to be the thrower-in. H1 deliberately and quickly places the ball on the ground and H2 goes OOB, picks up the ball, and completes the throw-in.

They had obviously been coached how to handle situations where they wanted to switch the thrower-in after a made basket. It's the expectation I have for all the games I work.