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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:02pm
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Dickhead Coach ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
... the coach is a %#$% ...
If he continues to be a dickhead, I've got another rule to pull out of my black tool belt that will take care of matters.

5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a
game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply
with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul
infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to
which the game is forfeited is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall
stand. If this team is not ahead, the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its
favor.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If he continues to be a dickhead, I've got another rule to pull out of my black tool belt that will take care of matters.

5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a
game if any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply
with any technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul
infractions or other acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to
which the game is forfeited is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall
stand. If this team is not ahead, the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its
favor.
If they adopt adopt a stupid rule that says they get 15 minutes, you can't forfeit the game because you take affront that he is taking that amount of time to designate his replacement.

I don't ref basketball, so I have no idea what the ground rules are around here for coach ejections without an assistant coach. My opinion on what the rule should be is simply my opinion. IF the school/team wants someone to be able to take over, IMHO, that person should be named as an assistant coach before the game. If they don't do that, it's on the team, not the ref.

(The local AYSO Area has a rule that if any coach is tossed the game is over and a forfeit--the only reason I wouldn't support that for all jr high games is that some refs just become reluctant to toss the coach if they have to abandon the game, too.)
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 04:21pm
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It's For The Kids ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
If they adopt adopt a stupid rule that says they get 15 minutes ...
The CIAC, the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, our state high school sports governing body, consists of both active and retired school superintendents, principals, assistant principals, and athletic directors that often make decisions with input of our Connecticut IAABO State Interpreter.

This learned group of educators probably figures that canceling an extracurricular school activity involving two teams of student athletes (one team traveling by expensive bus, that already left to return later in the afternoon for pickup), student athlete cheerleaders, student athlete fans, paid officials, and parents, due to the behavior of one adult who lost his temper and said the wrong word to an official, possibly in the first minute of a game, may not be the best educational plan for all involved. Why punish the many for the mortal sin of one? Why not give the coach (as long as he's not being a dickhead) some time to get a teacher, administrator, parent, police officer in the corner, custodian, or even the other team's assistant coach, to coach, thus allowing the completion of this educationally valuable extracurricular school activity? Isn't that preferable to sending everybody home and turning off the lights in the gym? When ten or fifteen minutes of time can possibly solve a problem?

When David saw the angel striking the people, he said to the Lord, “Look, I am the one who has sinned; I am the one who has done wrong. But these sheep, what have they done? Please, let Your hand be against me. (2 Samuel 24:17)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Forum members: What are the written guidelines in your state/conference/league/association, etc.?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Jan 29, 2019 at 04:41pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 05:14pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Clearances?

A tangential twist to this issue: if coaches need clearances, must the "coach out of the stands" be cleared? And if so, who checks? If he/she doesn't have clearances, then what?

There was a case where a game did not have a full crew of referees. A cop, who is a DARE contact in the township's high school, is a referee, but HR said his clearances were not on file, so he could not work the game. I may have missed some of the nuances or details of the case, but that's the gist.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 05:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
....

Forum members: What are the written guidelines in your state/conference/league/association, etc.?
Don't know, don't care.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 05:34pm
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Nobody Does It Half As Good As You (Carly Simon, The Spy Who Loved Me, 1977) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Don't know, don't care.
Just trying to show so cal lurker that the Connecticut guidelines may not be perfect, but at least we (now) have some guidelines that other states may not have at all. Or that Connecticut guidelines stink, and other states do it much better.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 05:49pm
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Legal Liability ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
A tangential twist to this issue: if coaches need clearances, must the "coach out of the stands" be cleared? And if so, who checks? If he/she doesn't have clearances, then what?
This was the final piece of the puzzle, asked for by my local board. According to the CIAC, the substitute coach doesn't have to have state certification (usually all nonteaching coaches in the state have to have a state issued coaching certificate), so we don't have to ask; can't be a student; must "look like they're at least eighteen" (exact CIAC words).

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
There was a case where a game did not have a full crew of referees. A cop, who is a DARE contact in the township's high school, is a referee, but HR said his clearances were not on file, so he could not work the game.
Ever since I've been officiating we've been strongly warned not to ever officiate with anybody who is not IAABO certified (Connecticut is 100% IAABO for high school basketball, but there are a few recreation level non-IAABO officials out there with Foot Locker jerseys), even if it means working a one person game (which is allowed in Connecticut, we even have written mechanics guidelines in place). I've been told that it's for legal liability reasons.

Of course, the usual caveat, when in Rome ...
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 06:28pm
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How could a police officer not have his clearances on file? AFAIK, PA officials have to have a background check from the police department, so I would be surprised that a police officer would not have a police background check done on him every year. Or maybe it is just the PIAA misplacing his records (he is a member of a PIAA chapter in good standing?).
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 06:52pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Officials file their clearances with the central PIAA office, but schools here want them sent directly, rather than having to access them on-line through the PIAA website, and some school district HR departments are OOO.

When we are assigned a game at a school for the first time, we email our clearances to the AD, athletic department secretary, and everyone listed on arbiter as a school contact. We then hope that they get to and are accepted by the school district's HR office.

The officer is indeed in good standing, and an excellent official. I'm speculating that he never submitted his paperwork to that school because he would likely never get assigned there because of working in that township and going to the school as the DARE officer.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 29, 2019, 09:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Forum members: What are the written guidelines in your state/conference/league/association, etc.?

Michigan's Rule:
Quote:
If a coach is ejected from a contest and an assistant coach or an assigned school representative is not available to continue as coach, the event is terminated and forfeited to the opponent. Only assistant coaches or school representatives (verified by the Superintendent or Principal) may act in place of the coach. (MHSAA Regulation V,Section 3(B)).
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 30, 2019, 09:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoomerSooner View Post
I'm curious as to why you arrive at the conclusion that the coach is implying the officials are cheating or trying to affect the outcome. I don't think the officials in the Saints/Rams game were cheating or trying to affect the outcome of the game, nor have I seen any serious attempts to suggest they were. The only thing close was the story about 4 of those officials living in Southern California, and even the article I read was more focused on the perception issue.

That said, my conclusion is that he's implying that calls are being missed (most would agree that is what happened in the Saints/Rams game) and/or he feels the officiating is poor. In either case, I don't immediately put this in the "automatic" category. Tone and body language are missing from the OP (and hard to convey via this medium anyway), so there is a chance this requires a T, but I'd actually lean toward a warning for the initial comment and follow that with the T when he loudly says, "You can't be serious". Based on the OP, I think the coach was trying to be humorous more than anything and think the OP handled the situation well.
In "fan" speak which coaches fall into. The implication that "that's why the Saint's lost" because many people "believe" that the officials wanted the Rams to win and Saints to lose. This implies bias. This is the meaning behind saying this.

"This is why the other team is winning." = The refs are showing favoritism.

I have 0 patience for this BS and any official at any level that T's a coach up for this type of behavior, in my experience, is backed by their assignor. At this youth, play for fun, level it's different because there aren't any real expectations. But the meaning behind what was said is very clear.

I can see a coach trying to be humorous with saying things like this. But they usually say it to your face in a joking manner and it's framed with other content.

As a standalone it's a T in my book.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 30, 2019, 09:23am
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Coaches in our high school league have to complete some certification offered the the over seeing high school sports association including awareness of their mission, sportsmanship, etc. For whatever that means. No staff can be on the bench who has not completed that training.

We do not need to check for training but assume league and AD have done their diligence and no one down as a coach or staff does not have it.

If anyone gets ejected only coaches on sheet and/other bench staff can replace them. If no such adult exists game is forfeited.
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Coach: Hey ref I'll make sure you can get out of here right after the game!

Me: Thanks, but why the big rush.

Coach: Oh I thought you must have a big date . . .we're not the only ones your planning on F$%&ing tonite are we!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:55am
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Certification ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Coaches in our high school league have to complete some certification offered the the over seeing high school sports association including awareness of their mission, sportsmanship, etc. For whatever that means. No staff can be on the bench who has not completed that training.
Same thing here in Connecticut for non-certified teachers: eighteen years old, high school graduate, criminal background check, forty-five hour hour course, Sports Psychology, Care and Prevention of Athletic Injuries, Legal Aspect of Coaching, Management Styles, Interpersonal Skills, Physical Conditioning, Practice Design, CIAC Eligibility Rules, CIAC Out Of Season Rules, CIAC Chemical Health Policy, Revocation, Harassment and Hazing, Appropriate Use Of Electronic (Social) Media, Dealing With Parents Of Athletes, Impact Of Ethical Standards On Youth. Cost is $375 and one needs to additionally take concussion protocol, first aid, and CPR. Renewed every five years (fifteen hour class renewal, $100), plus concussion protocol, first aid, and CPR renewal. Even certified teachers have to take the concussion protocol, first aid, and CPR training periodically.

Certainly a lot of hoops to jump through.

Which is why I was surprised when our state high school sports governing body recently came up with: can't be a student, must "look like they're at least eighteen".

Possibly an immediate knee jerk reaction to very recent problems, perhaps they will come up with a more formal guideline in the future.

I'm also surprised that this hasn't come up previously in Connecticut.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Jan 30, 2019 at 12:33pm.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 30, 2019, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
In "fan" speak which coaches fall into. The implication that "that's why the Saint's lost" because many people "believe" that the officials wanted the Rams to win and Saints to lose. This implies bias. This is the meaning behind saying this.



"This is why the other team is winning." = The refs are showing favoritism.



I have 0 patience for this BS and any official at any level that T's a coach up for this type of behavior, in my experience, is backed by their assignor. At this youth, play for fun, level it's different because there aren't any real expectations. But the meaning behind what was said is very clear.



I can see a coach trying to be humorous with saying things like this. But they usually say it to your face in a joking manner and it's framed with other content.



As a standalone it's a T in my book.

Exactly. In a HS game I'm chuckling as I'm whacking the coach. Cause he should know it's coming. I got the Seahawks line the season of the Fail Mary and the coach got whacked and sat without saying a word.

In a rec game? Please. We're shooting FTs (or awarding 2 and the ball) before the coach knows what hit him.


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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 30, 2019, 12:38pm
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Call more Technicals. They are a part of the game. We need to make them less "Taboo".

I see too many officials take too much crap. Especially in sub-varsity games.
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