Throw-in hits basket
 

Team A has a throw-in from under their basket. A1's throw-in hits the bottom of the basket ring and is deflected toward an area of the court where it remains untouched inbounds. The administering official stops play, points to the ring, and signals for a Team B throw-in at the original spot. Correct procedure?

Correct procedure for a violation? Sure.

Correct ruling? Hmmmmmm

No. Just let the ball sit there...That would have been the thing to do...

It's a violation for the throw-in to ENTER the basket, but not to HIT the basket.

How do I know? I kicked it my first year. The coach questioned it, but didn't really know either. I looked it up in the locker room after the game and apologized to the coach.

Always Listen To bob ...
 

Similar question, when you have a partner kick a call like this what are your options? I had a very similar play earlier this year where an inbounds pass hits under the backboard and carried into the court. Partner blows dead, calls it out of bounds and gives it to the other team. No one in the gym seemed to know or care. I knew that was not the right call. So what are my options? And what should I do?

I can tell you what I did; I did nothing for fear of showing up my partner. This happened in the first quarter so I even forgot to discuss in the locker room post game even though I made a mental note to do so.

Can Go A Few Ways ...
 

You can always just ignore it and possibly discuss at halftime, or after the game, or ...

Immediate private on court conversation.

You: "What did you see on that?"
Partner: "Ball hit the back of the backboard. Out of bounds violation".
You: "Good call".
Play on.

You: ""What did you see on that?"
Partner: "Ball hit the bottom of the backboard. Out of bounds violation".
You: "Are you sure about that interpretation?"
Partner: "Yes"
Play on.
Possible discussion at halftime, or after the game.

You: ""What did you see on that?"
Partner: "Ball hit the bottom of the backboard. Out of bounds violation".
You: "Are you sure about that interpretation?"
Partner: "Not really"
You: "Only the back and supports are out of bounds, front, sides, top, and bottom are inbounds."
Partner: "Thanks. Inadvertent whistle. New throwin".
Play on.

You: ""What did you see on that?"
Partner: "Ball hit the bottom of the backboard. Out of bounds violation".
You: "Are you sure about that interpretation?"
Partner: "Yes. Screw you. Don't mess with my calls."
Play on.
File partner's name in memory to not offer help unless it's game breaker.

It's a rules issue. I'm at least getting together to see what my partner has. depending on the partner and level, "getting together" might be as simple as a questioning look, or it might be going right up to him/her. And, it might just be asking, and it might be "strongly suggesting" that we change it.

Thanks all. I agree with your assessment of the OP which happened in an 8th grade game I was watching last night from the stands.

Billy brings me to my next question. Is the part in bold the correct procedure?

If no one had legally touched the ball, the throwin has not ended. The POI would be another throwin for same team. Not the arrow in play you describe.

And if the ball bounded directly into somebody's hands rather than not being touched, the POI would be a throw-in for the team with possession at the time of the IW.

Good job everybody. Gold stars all around.

A Do-Over ???
 

So the violation (soon to be reversed), the dead ball, and the whistle don't matter?

It's like do-over?

Is it truly an inadvertent whistle or a whistle later determined to be a mistake and then rectified?

Is the point of interruption the violation, dead ball, and whistle; or the error correction?

Seems to me you are making this way too complicated.

What stopped play? Can't be a violation as there wasn't one. So it has to be the whistle.

The whistle was a mistake--hence inadvertent.

What was the status when it blew? That's the POI: a not completed throw in.

Exactly!

Quit confusing people. If the officials get together and determine the whistle should never have been blown, it becomes an inadvertent whistle. When the did the inadvertent whistle occur? During a throw-in that had not ended. POI is the throw-in.

May I ask why it was thrown UNDER the basket ? Shouldn’t it have been spotted outside the backboard “lane,paint ? Jus curious

It was. I assumed a forum full of officials would understand "under the basket" means at the throw-in spot just outside the lane.

Fair Or By The Book ???
 

Seems like a fair resolution, but is it by the book?

Who has team control just prior to the inadvertent whistle?

Nobody.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

4-36: Point Of Interruption
ART. 1 Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent
whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6,
a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and
4-19-10.
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. A jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team
is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is
involved when the game is interrupted.
ART. 3 When the ball remains live after a violation or foul (as in 4-19-
8) during a try for goal, the point of interruption is determined to be when
the ball becomes dead following the violation or foul.

Since neither team has team control at the time of the inadvertent whistle, I suggest that, by rule, the officials should go to the alternating possession arrow.

Now I will agree that that doesn't sound fair, but I believe it's by the book.

Cite the POI rule.

Play The Whistle ...
 

Seems simple, but is it by the book?

What if nine players responded to the whistle by doing nothing and only one responded by grabbing the ball?

Sounds a little (but not exactly the same) like when incorrect instructions are given by the officials on a free throw and some players react in one manner and others react in another manner.

8.6.1 SITUATION: A1 is about to attempt the first of a one-and-one free-throw situation. The administering official steps in and erroneously informs players that two free throws will be taken. A1's first attempt is unsuccessful. The missed free throw is rebounded by: (a) B1, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; (b) A2, with all other players motionless in anticipation of another throw; or (c) B2, with several players from both teams attempting to secure the rebound. The officials recognize their error at this point. RULING: In (a) and (b), the official's error clearly put one team at a disadvantage (players stood motionless and didn't attempt to rebound). Play should be ruled dead immediately and resumed using the alternating-possession procedure. In (c), both teams made an attempt to rebound despite the official's error and had an equal opportunity to gain possession of the rebound. Play should continue. (2-3; 2-10)

How often do coaches and officials tell kids to play the whistle?

Now I will agree that that doesn't sound like the simplest way to handle this, after all one player has possession of the ball, but I believe that, by rule, the officials should go to the alternating possession arrow.

Post the POI rule 4-36-2b. This rule actually says the poi is a throw in when the IW or whatever “occurred during this activity.” This is why the ball goes back to the other team in this play. The throw in had not ended. 4.19.8f also.

Interpretations ...
 

Throwin, but no inadvertent whistle:

4.19.8 SITUATION F: A1 releases the ball on a throw-in, and before it is legally touched, A2 and B2 commit fouls against each other. RULING: When a double foul occurs, play is resumed at the point of interruption. Since Team A’s throw-in had not ended, the point of interruption would be a throw-in by Team A. (4-36-2b; 10 Penalty 1c)

Inadvertent whistle, player control, team control, no team control:

7.5.3 SITUATION: An official sounds his/her whistle inadvertently: (a) while A1 is dribbling and in player control; (b) while the pass is in flight from A1 (in A’s backcourt) to A2 (in A’s frontcourt); (c) while A1's unsuccessful three-point try attempt is in flight; or (d) while A’s successful try attempt is in flight. RULING: The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. In (a), Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was inadvertently sounded. In (b), since the ball is being passed among teammates and is in flight, it retains the same location as when it was last in contact with A1 in Team A’s backcourt. Therefore, Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where A1 was when the whistle was sounded. In (c) and (d), the ball does not become dead until the try ends. In (c), since there is no team control when the ball becomes dead, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure at a spot nearest to where A1 was last in contact with ball when the whistle was sounded. In (d), since a goal has been scored by Team A, the ball is given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. (7-4-4; 4-4-3; 4-12-3,6; 4-36)

Quit confusing people who are here trying to learn. Not all of your internal arguments need to be spilled into a post...SMH :rolleyes:

What is it about this portion of your citation that you do not understand?

This Activity ...
 

Nice post. I did spot this before I posted it but wasn't sure what "A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during this activity or if a team is entitled to such" meant.

In this specific case, does it mean that play resumes by a throwin because the inadvertent whistle interruption occurred during a throwin that never ended because it wasn't touched by another player?

If that's the case, I stand corrected.

So for inadvertent whistle interruptions during a free throw, or a throwin, it's not about team control? Correct.

Thanks BigCat and Raymond.

Possession 9/10's Of The Law ...
 

Is this incorrect, correct would be to have a throwin do-over?

What was the status of the ball at the time of the IW? Start there for every question you have about this subject.

Learn Something New Every Day ...
 

A few minutes ago I would have thought it had everything to do with team control, or lack of team control. Now I know that that is not true regarding free throws, or throwins.

I knew I shouldn't have put that in there. Bad move on my part and just added confusion. I did it because I was originally going to make this point and decided to be more pithy:

If the inadvertent whistle from the OP occurred
a) before any player touched the throw-in, the POI is a throw-in for Team A.
b) after a player touched the throw-in in bounds but before any player controlled the ball, the POI is the arrow
c) after a player controlled the ball, the POI is a throw-in for the team in control.

Please Confirm ...
 

I'm thinking that they're all throwins for Team A, but I've already been wrong in this thread, so could someone please confirm?

4-36: Point Of Interruption
ART. 1 Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent
whistle, an interrupted game, as in 5-4-3, a correctable error, as in 2-10-6,
a double personal, double technical or simultaneous foul, as in 4-19-8 and
4-19-10.
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.
c. A jump ball or alternating-possession throw-in when neither team
is in control and no goal, infraction, nor end of quarter/extra period is
involved when the game is interrupted.
ART. 3 When the ball remains live after a violation or foul (as in 4-19-
8) during a try for goal, the point of interruption is determined to be when
the ball becomes dead following the violation or foul.

Billy, it is exactly as Altor laid it out in post 28. IW, double foul...Before throwin legally touched then back to A. After ball legally touched but not controlled by player then arrow.(HE didn’t tell us who arrow was favoring so I do t know if A gets it) If it Rebounds to players hands, then whistle....Throwin is over and a team is in control. Whatever team that is gets the ball. If you have other qs plz pm me. I’ll try to explain more but I don’t think this is helpful...

Inadvertent Whistle Interruption ...
 

Legally touched? After a violation (later reversed), a dead ball, and a whistle?

Isn't the inadvertent whistle for the ball hitting the ring the point of interruption, not something that happens after the inadvertent whistle (touch inbounds, player control, team control, etc.)?

Point Of Interruption: Method of resuming play due to an official's inadvertent whistle,
ART. 2 Play shall be resumed by one of the following methods:
a. A throw-in to the team that was in control at an out-of-bounds spot
nearest to where the ball was located when the interruption occurred.
b. A free throw or a throw-in when the interruption occurred during
this activity or if a team is entitled to such.

There was no team in control (team control during a throwin only applies when a member of the throwin team fouls) when the ball hit the ring, and the ball had not yet been touched, nor possessed (controlled), by another player when the ball hit the ring.

Nobody had player control and/or team control and nobody had touched and/or possessed the ball (after throwin release) before the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring.

Since the ball was dead, wouldn't the only things that may have mattered after the violation (later reversed), dead ball, and inadvertent whistle when the ball hit the ring be intentional and/or flagrant fouls?

Player control, team control, ball touched, etc., should be ignored because they all came after the ball became dead.

If a player caught the ball after it hit the ring and made a layup would you count the basket?

Wanted Dead Or Alive ...
 

I think that I see the problem. In my opinion the ball is already dead when the whistle is sounded, dead in error, but it's still dead.

Basketball Rules Fundamentals 16. The official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

7-7 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown
ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs

Are you saying that it was the whistle that caused the ball to became dead, not the violation because the violation was called in error?

If so, that's an interesting take.

I'd like to see some more discussion regarding such.

The “inadvertent whistle” is the inadvertent whistle. The whistle makes the ball dead in this play. In Altor’s first example no one had touched the ball. Thus the throw in had not legally ended and the POI rule says team A gets another throw in.
The second example has the ball hitting the underside of the rim, immediately deflecting off a player inbounds. Then the whistle. Again the “IW” is the IW. At that moment no team has control inbounds. I know what you are thinking...the reason you blew the whistle was because you thought ball hitting underside of rim was violation. So should you determine the situation from that moment in time? I would tell you no..because you haven’t “interrupted” the game yet under the rules.
As to your question, if a player caught the ball and made a layup..would I count the basket? Absolutely...1. Because I know hitting underside of ring is nothing. 2. If for some reason I thought it was a problem but didn’t interrupt the game until after the layup...the rules require it....The End.

Keep in mind we are now talking about the timing of the whistle. Because of the odd and unexpected occurrence (throw-in hitting the rim), the whistle was not immediate. The official in the OP took a moment to process what he saw and then made a bad decision to stop play. The POI is determined by the status of the ball when the IW occurred, not when the ball hit the rim.

And the IW is one of those "seldom causes".

Whistle While You Work ...
 

I get it. Not sure I agree, but I get the logic and the rule language behind it.

Because it's not a real violation, the "violation" doesn't cause the ball to became dead, it's the inadvertent whistle that causes the ball to become dead and the whistle may be slightly delayed (as it always is).

I would like to see further discussion before I change my mind, especially the part about counting the basket (after the ring hit but also after the sound of the whistle).

If everybody's going to count that basket, then I better think about backing up the truck and moving in another direction.

Good discussion guys. I can certainly see your logic.

Maybe Basketball Rules Fundamental 16 isn't as clear as I once believed.

The Moon Does Not Exist If Nobody Is Looking At It (Albert Einstein) …
 

If a violation falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, is it still a dead ball?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...llen_tree2.jpg

Again, it depends on the status of the ball when the inadvertent whistle occurs. If the IW occurs after the defender gained possession, his team gets the ball because they had team control. If the player was in the act of shooting but the ball was not released-same result. If the try was released and then the IW occurs we use the arrow if the try was unsuccessful. If the try was good the basket counts and play resumes from there. See 7.5.3

Dead Ball ...
 

Another vote for dead ball at the whistle rather than the violation (error).

7.5.3 SITUATION: An official sounds his/her whistle inadvertently: (a) while A1 is dribbling and in player control;(b) while the pass is in flight from A1 (in A’s backcourt) to
A2 (in A’s frontcourt); (c) while A1's unsuccessful three-point try attempt is in flight; or (d) while A’s successful try attempt is in flight. RULING: The ball is put in play at the point of interruption. In (a), Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where the ball was when the whistle was inadvertently sounded. In (b), since the ball is being passed among teammates and is in flight, it retains the same location as when it was last in contact with A1 in Team A’s backcourt. Therefore, Team A is awarded a throw-in at the nearest out-of-bounds spot to where A1 was when the whistle was sounded. In (c) and (d), the ball does not become dead until the try ends. In (c), since there is no team control when the ball becomes dead, the ball is put in play by the team entitled to the throw-in using the alternating-possession procedure at a spot nearest to where A1 was last in contact with ball when the whistle was sounded. In (d), since a goal has been scored by Team A, the ball is given to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the end line. (7-4-4; 4-4-3; 4-12-3,6; 4-36)

Nice citation billyu2. Thanks.

Wow. Shatters the image I've accumulated...