Euro Step - Legal or illegal? Why either way? (Video)
 

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Peace

Easily legal in real time.

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Hard to tell in real time, but in slow motion, he picked up the ball with his right foot still on the ground at the top of the circle. He stepped left (making the right the pivot), then stepped right again. Travel. Live, probably missed.

If that's a travel, then every euro step is a travel

Forget just the Euro Step, any move to the basket like this is a travel. His left foot to me is without question the pivot foot. He never plants it and puts it down again.

Peace

No call. Without slowing it down, it would be a guess.

slowing it down to freeze frame, it is absolutely not a travel. I was always taught if you were really quick to see violations like travel and 3 seconds, you wouldn't last long at higher levels. You should be liberal with the gather. In any event, freeze frame this, he hasn't picked the ball up in 2 hands before the step that would need to still be down for it to be a travel, is already off the floor. This is as clean as they come.

The video shows the exact opposite of what you claim. Freeze frame and you see the ball being held in his hand(s) with the right foot down and the left foot up. You may not want to call it, but it is there.

It also doesn't take 2 hands to hold the ball. One under it is holding the ball and when the travel rule begins.

It doesn't, but I would not split hairs here. Again if you have to slow it down to determine that, then you would be a better official than me to catch that during live action.

Peace

I've got a freeze frame, left hand on the ball, both feet in the air, right foot has left the floor, left foot will be next. no College official, or High School official for that matter worth his salt, would call that a travel

I have nothing in real time. Slowing it way down...as slow as I can..it looks to me that his left hand goes under the ball (ending the dribble) with right foot on floor at top of key making it pivot. I can’t see it well enough to be sure. In any event, as I said I have nothing in real time. It doesn’t help your game to be the only person on the floor calling travel.

I've got that freeze frame too and several others that don't shot the point of interest. The one before that, however, shows the hand in the same place with the right foot still on the floor.

Yes, it is SO close I am sure I would never call it. But, if you're talking absolutes, it is a travel, just one that can't be confidently judged in real time....thus no call should ever be expected on it.

I imagine we are seeing the same thing, I'm seeing the left hand on the side of the ball and the right-hand not on it, well some of you others are seeing that left hand under the ball and saying the dribble has thus been stopped. That hand isn't under the ball, it said about two-thirds of the way up the ball. I need to see that right hand also grab the ball before I would say the dribble is stopped. If you don't interpret it that way, you're going to see a whole lot more travels than I do in every single game.

I have his dribble ended (gather complete) with his left foot down. He doesn't put that foot back down prior to releasing his try.

That's why it is called "judgment".

This is not a travel. When you try to nit pick this into a travel you make a long night for your crew.

Legal.

I read something somewhere about thinking of the end of the dribble as a process (i.e. the gather) rather than a single moment in time. Using this philosophy, it's clear to me that the gather ends with the left foot as the pivot, and it doesn't come back down before the ball is released.

Is it good for the game to split hairs and rule these plays travels? Not for me.

That isn't the rule. If you reach a point where another dribble would be a carry (one hand under the ball or the ball coming to rest in one hand), the dribble has ended at that point...that is why it would be a carry. There is absolutely no requirement that two hands be on the ball to end the dribble, otherwise, you could catch the ball in one hand and run down the court. Once that has occurred, the travel rules are in effect.

I agree with your description...that is judgement. But, the rules (which are not judgement) do not require the "gather" to be complete. In fact, there is no such thing in the rules. The travel rules apply when the ball is held in even ONE hand...which occurs before the "gather".

That said, I'm never going to call this one because I wouldn't be good enough to see it and be sure of it. But, that doesn't make it not a travel. It just means it is too close to see clearly.

There is no requirement for two hands to be on the ball to end the dribble, that is very true. But you are assuming without any evidence that the dribble officially ended with only one hand. There are some things that actually have to take place for the dribble to end with only one hand and that is not clear on the video or clear by the actions of this player, this took place. The dribble does not simply end because the ball is not put back on the floor. The dribble ends when the player grabs the ball in a way that they are either completely under the ball with his hand or have grabbed the ball with one hand which players do not try to do very often. Most of the time players are trying to grab the ball with two hands and not one because that is how they are taught fundamentally.

You try to sell us on this notion every time I post one of these videos. But we have to guess what we see in your situation rather than see what is clear on the video. And we have to slow it down to even come close. Sorry, I see nothing on this video that the ball handler got any control with one hand. The ball could be spinning or not come to rest until both hands come to the ball. And I am not calling that a violation that close or in real time or in slow motion.

Peace

My comments are on what the rules require, not on what you or I see in this video. People should not be making up their own rules.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.

Saying a player hasn't "gathered" is the equivalent of saying a player wasn't set or over-the-back. It is establishing requirements that are contrary to what the rules say.

I don't have a travel there...left foot appeared to be pivot and it never came back down. Nice video...

From spending time at a pretty high level shooting camp a few years back...That's a good video showing what the Euro is. I try to tell guys all the time, all a "Euro" is...one step at the defender and the next out to the side/away...why is that so hard to comprehend.

These players out here poorly executing illegal jump stop where they get up in the air then land 1 - 2 and get banged for travel, then trying to say "euro step" crack me up. Euro or American, pivot foot allowances don't change! :cool:

I did not read that anyone was trying to have a deep rules conversation on when or how a dribble ends with one or two hands. I think people were judging that the dribble did not end until he grabbed the ball with both hands. That is not making up their own rules, that is seeing what happened in the video and saying that is what they are ruling.

There is no magic 3rd state of player control between dribbling and holding. When the dribble ends, holding begins...that is how the dribble ends, by rule. Unless you're saying the player lost control and there was a window in which you would not grant a timeout, you have only two choices: dribbling or holding. As such, if it reaches a point where you'd call another dribble a carry, you have, by rule, deemed the player to be holding the ball.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, but no one is trying to split hairs other than you in this situation. And even you are saying you would not call this a travel. I have seen players without moving to try to catch a pass with one hand and not do it so cleanly. So it is possible that everyone is saying it is not clear that he stops his dribble until the ball is in both hands. And if there is a benefit of the doubt every given, that is my philosophy on this or many other kinds of plays. If it was clear he had possession with one hand, I have no issues going with that. But you are talking about a carry in the context of this play where it does not really apply. A carry is usually a move to hesitate or deceive in a way to make your defender think he/she is stopping their dribble. Not exactly the case here.

I disagree, but again we are not going to agree on this like the other times. Nothing new to see here.

Peace

There has to be some sort of measure as to whether or not the dribble has ended. The term most officials use is "gather" to describe that action on normal plays, because that is what the dribbler is doing, gathering the ball. It is not the equivalent of saying a player needs to be set to draw a charge.

“Gather/gathering” is a horrible term. Makes people think two hands are required. Not the case. Not in any rule book. If you use the term “gather” just tells me you havnt been doing this very long.

Yet, term is not accurate, rules-wise. The rules consider the dribble to end before the ball is "gathered" regardless of what a lot of officials use. A lot of officials used to use being "set" too and incorrectly call players for blocks based on the incorrect understanding of the rule. It has taken years to get that misunderstanding mostly eliminated but progress has been made by insisting on proper terminology and understanding. This isn't really any different.

That's a bunch of nonsense. A lot of very good, long time officials use the term.

It’s a bad term. Using it doesn’t mean you can’t referee or be “very good” at it. I could have said it differently. I’m not sure when the term came in but I’ve never liked it..

The term "Euro-Step" is also not a rulebook term, but it is used all over the game by people associated with the game. The term describes a specific action or attempt at a specific action, just like "gather." And at least in the NF case, they used the term "Euro-Step" to describe an action addressed in the traveling POE this year.

People need to stop IMO with the brow-beating of things that are not specifically covered in the rule. I get it if we are talking about things that completely bastardize the rule or misinform. But neither "gather" or "euro-step" does either. They both describe an action that explains a moment or movement that we have rules to suggest either legal or illegal actions.

Peace

I have the same thing...no travel.

In a recent game, I was at Trail and had a player come from my primary and his move to the basket looked pretty much exactly like this. The C came over and got a travel. I didn't make a big deal of it, but I really didn't think he needed to come get it, and felt like he did simply because it looked funny.

Well I used the term dribble ended also in my post. And the dribble ended when he gathered the ball on this play. Thus I put gather in parentheses. A defender doesn't have to be set to take a charge, that's why it's incorrect to use that term. Instead of using the term gather, I'll say the dribbler caught the ball to keep everybody happy. On this play the dribbler caught the ball with his left foot down as the pivot foot.

Whether I say gather or catch, it doesn't change my ruling on this play.


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Still, gather is used by many to mean two hands on the ball and what is necessary to end the dribble. That is simply not correct, by rule.

I base my judgement on the rules, not some made up term that as is commonly defined and used is in contrast to the rules.

I think you are widely incorrect in this statement. I have never heard the term to have anything to mean 2 hands only as when a dribble ends. If that was the case then you could not have a carry violation. And there was a time when it was taught to do a layup without every putting both hands on the ball. Never have I used or even suggested that only the gather took place with two hands alone. But I think it is the most common way to end a dribble is when players clearly stop their dribble, they do it by trying to secure the ball with both hands. Kind of the same way a player catches a pass. In this case, the player clearly tried to do just that, catch the ball with both hands on the ball. Also by rule the dribble ends with both hands touching the ball. With one hand you need the ball to come to rest or by interpretation, "Be more than a handshake." I do not see that clearly in this video.

So does most people here. And since you are so worried about a term, well in this play I do not see any sign that the dribble officially ended with one hand. And if I am going to make sure a ruling, I also have to have some visual evidence that took place. Maybe in other videos there is a dribble that ended with one hand, but this is not the one IMO.

Peace

I can't control what others think, interpret, misinterpret or are too lazy to look up themselves. And I definitely know the rules, how they apply, when to apply them, and which actions apply to a rule. Anytime you see me type the word "gather" know it is a synonym for "catch" in regards to the dribble ending.

I'll reserve my comments in regards to your holier than statement about judgment and rules application.

That's Camron projecting his definition and interpretation of the word on the rest of the officiating world. I've never had a discussion with an official who assumed that gathering a dribble requires 2 hands. And I've never heard even the most adept rules knowledge officials use the phrases "catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands" or "palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands" or "simultaneously touches the ball with both hands" (4-15-4) when discussing scenarios and plays. Every competent rules knowledge official I have worked with or had a discussion with uses the phrases "gathered the dribble" and "ended his dribble" interchangeably in discussions about this type of play and nobody ever gets confused.

I'm glad I was following this thread. Last night in a BV game, A1 made exactly this move and this really is a hard thing to catch live if it looks like this one on film. I was watching the defender because he had already drawn 2 charges, and I noticed the kid had started to go into a layup motion, he took one giant step, jumped off that foot, and made the bucket. My partner asked me about it at half time, but I judged his pivot foot to not have returned to the floor and watching this video about 10 times to see whether I thought it was a travel (I don't) definitely benefited me in this situation.

No. I've seen it used that way many times on this forum. It isn't me projecting anything. I'm just pointing that out. Some are now denying they used it that way, but it doesn't change history.

I can't account for your discussions and the people with whom you interact. I discuss rules with officials who have common sense and understand the context of "gather"-ing the ball in regards to when a dribble ends.

There are people in this world that misrepresent all kinds of things and words. Because you interact with people that do not understand basic jargon or definitions does not mean they represent everyone that uses the jargon properly. And I cannot think of anyone on this site that suggested that only 2 hands meant a "gather."

Peace

Two Hand Gather ...
 

I'm not a big fan of the word gather, it's not in my NFHS rulebook, and my interpreter never uses it, but when in Rome ...

I've have seen kids in the pregame right side layup lines only bring the ball up with their right hand and then shoot with only their right hand, the ball never touching their left hand. The dribble had to end somewhere. Players seldom dibble into the basket.

Yup, gather does not equate to only using 2 hands. Players make one handed layups/shots all the time without ever touching the ball with 2 hands. Also, NBA and some college players "gather" for shots by palming or cupping the ball with only one hand. lastly, we have all seen alley oops caught, gathered, and dunked with only one hand. (although many of you might not equate "gather" with being done in the the air):rolleyes::rolleyes:

If that is the standard of using words of the game, we would not use half the words we use to talk about anything in the game with coaches or players. Sorry this self-righteous position that we only use words that appears to be in the rulebook is rather silly and rather stupid. The term "flop" is not in the rulebook but I do not see anyone moralizing that is something we should not use. Just got a email from a supervisor addresing how we handle flopping and it is in no rulebook. And it is moralizing when you are picking and choosing what words are and issue when other words we use without anyone giving a damn.

Peace

Coincidence ...
 

Talk about coincidence. Tonight I had a player dribble down right side of the lane and bring the ball up with only his right hand and then shoot with only his right hand, the ball never touching his left hand.

He missed the layup.

Box Out Or Block Out ...
 

Agree, but some words are colloquial in nature and may vary between local areas. Here in Connecticut I have never heard the term "gather" to describe whether a play was a travel or not.

It appears that the NFHS wants us to tighten up on these local colloquial expressions with their Officiating Professionalism And Use Of Proper Terminology Point of Emphasis this year.

Good luck with that.

I can't speak for other parts of the country, but here in Connecticut, officials often refer to a baseline, we count the basket, we call jump balls, the basket has a rim, some timeouts are full timeouts, players establish legal guarding position, and we work games.

When in Rome ...

Doesn't look his pivot foot (left) returns to the floor before the ball is released for the try in real time.

The slo motion portion of the video leaves off the transition from dribble to gather, so it's difficult to really analyze. But, based on the slo mo that's given...same as real time. Legal movement.

I see too many officials blindly calling a travel when someone executes a poor jump stop and lands 1-2. Landing 1-2 is not a travel as long as the dribble ended when both feet were off the ground. Many times the "gather" or ending of the dribble at the high school level is as close as you see in the video from OP. Unless I can determine for certain, I let it go. I think many guess and just call a travel. That's just my 2 cents on the 1-2 landing.

I never said you need two hands on the ball for it to be a gather, if you're going to call I gather with just one hand on the ball, the hand better not be two-thirds of the way up the ball. It's got to be very clear that the ball is come to rest in the hand in the hand is under the ball. That is In no way happening in this video. Bottom line. If you are trying to move up and really good at getting travels that you have to watch in slow motion to call, you're not going to move up very fast. This video could serve as a great example of what a euro-step move actually is LOL.