Jump Ball - Start the game (Video)
 

Interesting play last night.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/y77M7Q8OZ7w" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

The jumper from white looks like he had a clear chance to grab the ball but seems like he thought that he couldn't. Should have been able to grab it though once it had touched another player. A good point though to be ready to officiate as soon as the ball goes up. I have had one or two unique situations this year right from the jump that caught me off guard.

Enough Is Enough ...
 

Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.

(A preemptive post to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.: Shut up.)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cart...070125_low.jpg

Jumpers are supposed to stay within their half of center circle til jump is over. Here, they both crossed division line before ball was touched by non jumper. The player in white was more obvious than red. Hard pressed to call these..
I don’t think red player had control...he did push ball down but not sure I see enough for control. Definitely a lot going on. Need to be ready...

For The Good Of The Cause ...
 

And, yes, you have to know this for the test.

RULE 6 SECTION 3 JUMP-BALL ADMINISTRATION

ART. 1 . . . For any jump ball, each jumper shall have both feet within that
half of the center restraining circle which is farther from his/her basket.

ART. 2 . . . When the official is ready and until the ball is tossed,
nonjumpers shall not:
a. Move onto the center restraining circle.
b. Change position around the center restraining circle.

ART. 3 . . . Teammates may not occupy adjacent positions around the
center restraining circle if an opponent indicates a desire for one of these
positions before the official is ready to toss the ball.

ART. 4 . . . The ball shall be tossed upward between the jumpers in a
plane at right angles to the sidelines. The toss shall be to a height greater
than either of them can jump so that it will drop between them.

ART. 5 . . . Until the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers,
nonjumpers shall not:
a. Have either foot break the plane of the center restraining circle
cylinder.
b. Take a position in any occupied space.

ART. 6 . . . The tossed ball must be touched by one or both of the jumpers
after it reaches its highest point. If the ball contacts the floor without being
touched by at least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss it again.

ART. 7 . . . Neither jumper shall:
a. Touch the tossed ball before it reaches its highest point.
b. Leave the center restraining circle until the ball has been touched.
c. Catch the ball before the jump ball ends.
d. Touch the ball more than twice.

ART. 8 . . . The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the
touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a
basket or backboard.

NOTE: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.
The jumper is also not required to jump and attempt to touch the tossed
ball. However, if neither jumper touches the ball it should be tossed again
with both jumpers being ordered to jump and try to touch the ball.

Interesting that this is implied in the 6-3 "Note," but not specifically among the jumper's restrictions in 6-3-7.

Hmm. Have we opened a Pandora's Box just like we did with the TI/TC debate? :rolleyes:

In general, though this was messy, I ultimately saw nothing I would whistle even in slow motion review. I thought when I first started watching the video I might be looking for a backcourt violation, but indeed I never saw definite player control until the dust had finally settled. So....play on.

Restriction Ends ???
 

ART. 1 For any jump ball, each jumper shall have both feet within that
half of the center restraining circle which is farther from his/her basket.

ART. 7 Neither jumper shall:
a. Touch the tossed ball before it reaches its highest point.
b. Leave the center restraining circle until the ball has been touched.
c. Catch the ball before the jump ball ends.
d. Touch the ball more than twice.

ART. 8 The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the
touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a
basket or backboard.

NOTE: During a jump ball, a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.

Article 8 tells us when the restrictions end for Article 7 (jumpers shall not: touch the tossed ball before it reaches its highest point, leave the center restraining circle until the ball has been touched, catch the ball before the jump ball ends, touch the ball more than twice) but the restriction for where the jumpers must have their feet (within that half of the center restraining circle which is farther from his/her basket) is in Article 1 (and the Note), and there is no indication of when the Article 1 (and the Note) restriction ends.

Interesting. Very interesting.

I say again:

I think this was a very well officiated play. Nothing IMO happened here. It was just interesting to watch the ball go back and forth over the division line and no one violated or called for a violation. The Jumpers did nothing wrong. The ball was touched by both of them it appears and they can leave the area. The NC Jumper did appear to feel he was not going to be able to touch the ball, but he could have. Then the ball goes back and forth being touched by Harvard, but no control appeared to have taken place until the player on the floor grabs the ball with both hands. The only issue might be if the player laying on the division line is touching the ball when it is controlled by his teammate. But the Referee or tossing official was standing right there to know for sure. I thought it was a very well done job and I have seen similar plays called violations in college games. At least the officials were on top of this or just did not see anything that stood out.

Peace

I believe Article 1 is meant to apply to where the jumpers start and must be until it is tossed and nothing more.

There is nothing to be called on this play. I looked at the possibility of a backcourt violation but red never gained PC in the frontcourt before it was deflected into thier BC where a red player picked up the ball.

Oh, That NFHS ...
 

Sounds like a plan, but why wouldn't the NFHS stipulate that? Wait ... I'm being told ... Oh, that NFHS? Never mind.

...the ball is touched.


NCAA-Men's Rule 9-8-Art. 1. It is a violation when:
b. Either jumper leaves the center circle before the ball has been touched by a jumper, catches the jump ball, or touches it more than twice.

I’m aware of that rule. Neither player here left the center circle. Red foot crossed over to NC side and NC player crossed into red side. Both still in circle. First portion of rule says each player to stay in their half of center circle. NFHS note says stay in your own half “during jump ball.” Jump ball ends when touches non jumper, floor etc...I certainly wouldn’t have a call here but I was looking for anything might be diffferent just based on way Jeff phrased it/question...

I don't see anything in the high school rule that Billy quoted that says when that restriction ends.

There is definitely nothing in the college rules that states when that restriction ends. Of course the college rule explicitly states what is a violation whereas the high school rules refer you back to 6-3.

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Hidden In The Note ...
 

NOTE: During a jump ball a jumper is not required to face his/her own
basket, provided he/she is in the proper half of the center restraining circle.

ART. 8 The jump ball and the restrictions in 6-3-7 end when the
touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a
basket or backboard.

Nice citation BigCat.

Durng The Jump Ball, When Does The Jump Ball End ???
 

I also thought so until BigCat showed me the light. It's hidden in the note.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Poorly written by NFHS (so what else is new), ending the restriction should be in the rule itself rather than a subsequent note.

I'm a basketball official, not a detective (with apologies to Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy).

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.N...=0&w=296&h=165

Nothing happened here. The ball was rolling around on the floor with no control by anyone, so there is no possibility of a backcourt violation here.

I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends. How many U1's are looking where the jumpers are landing?

Restriction Ends ...
 

So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

The only problem I see is their poor use of the English language in this video.
"Be ready to officiating from the start of the game"

AKA a "typo"

Does "their" = the officials on the game? I don't think the officials on the game posted this video or added the graphics.

The one thing I love about these videos is that people see things that I never even imagine would be thought about. If there is anything I hate about what people see, is they see things that no one would even think to care about.

I have never even thought that a player landing on the other side of the division line as a violation. It ever would have occurred to me that this was even thought of as something to call. I am more worried about if the ball was touched at the proper point and the clock starting properly. Yes, there are times when a player might move or run through the circle that is not a jumper, but still very rare. But never in my career, I can think of that I ever watched where a player landed between the jumpers.

Peace

I have nearly a 1000 videos on the site. If you would like to be the editor for all of them and make sure that every word is in place, I will gladly allow you to do so.

Each video takes about 30 minutes tops to make for a minute or more of content. Feel free to give your input on them.

Thanks for your interest in my YouTube videos. :D

Peace

For the past year or two, I have posted a "thank you" to JRutledge for these videos. It might be appropriate to jump the gun and do so now. Thanks!

10-4 Rut! I appreciate any content that can generate a discussion. And i appreciate all your hard work! I work in TV so things like that catch my eye. 28 years looking at newscasts will do that to you!

Common Jump Ball Violations ...
 

BigCat did come up with a valid (although poorly written and well hidden) citation.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Ever since the introduction of the alternating possession arrow, it has been my contention that many otherwise extremely competent officials either don't fully understand and memorize all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, and/or it's difficult to watch for all the many violations and many restrictions that can occur during the jump ball, especially in a two person game.

And we only get to observe various jump ball situations once (usually) a game.

As the umpire in a two person game, I'm watching for common violations, jumpers tapping the ball on the way up, jumpers catching the ball, or jumpers touching the ball more than twice, before the jump ball ends (touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, or the floor). I'll also watch for the ball hitting the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers.

Unless one of the nonjumpers does something really weird, I'm probably not going to observe any non-really-weird violations from them. To avoid some nonjumper violations, as the umpire (or the referee) prejump, I will warn nonjumpers standing within three feet of the jump ball circle not to stand three feet directly behind anybody.

To my point of otherwise extremely competent officials not fully understanding and memorizing all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, several times a year I hear otherwise extremely competent (state tournament late round) varsity officials saying, prejump, "Hold your spots" to all eight nonjumpers, or, "You can't stand behind him”, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, both whom are ten feet off the jump ball circle.

The jump ball is archaic, some jump ball rules are poorly memorized/understood and/or poorly enforced, and we should start games with some other method.

He's assuming, as I sometimes do, the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be---and usually is---vastly different.

BillyMac was a career educator and I seem to be (much to my chagrin) a career student. So I think this is just how we're wired.

Honest Input ...
 

Thanks for the offer to give you my honest input on your videos, I hope that you can handle it:

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.V...=0&w=300&h=300

Will This Be On The Test ???
 

Good advice.

It's Friday, good time for a jump ball quiz.

1) Jumper A1 touches the ball more than twice before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

2) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, with his catch being the first touch by any player. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

3) Jumper A1 taps the ball on the way up. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

4) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, his catch being after jumper B1 taps the ball. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

5) Neither jumper A1, nor jumper B1, touches the ball after it reaches its highest point and the ball contacts the floor. Nontossing official sounds his whistle so that the jump ball can be tossed again. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

I Prefer To Know Both ...
 

I also do it to try to come up with the correct answer (if the NFHS allows that to be possible), and to reinforce that answer in my own mind. When I'm preaching to the choir, sometimes the choir is me.

There are practical ways to view rules and interpretations, and there are "written test" ways to view rules and interpretation.

I prefer to know both. I know the difference between them, and I know how to apply what I know in a "real" game.

https://paulwilkinson.files.wordpres...ns-dot-com.jpg

I have never called it in 30 plus years of HS or college. Having said that, Jeff’s video asked something like “do you see anything wrong here...”. I didn’t see anything I’d call and the only thing close to wrong/different was fact that NC player went way in to other side of circle before jump over. I just happen to know that the rules say each jumper stay in his half of circle and note says “during jump ball.” Jump ball isn’t over until hits floor, non jumper etc. I pointed out what rule and note says.
Nothing more, nothing less. 6-3-1 and the note at the end of section 3.

Like many basketball plays, there are usually three officials and 10 players. Not every player can be watched simultaneously and this certainly applies to a jump ball, especially with one set of official's eyes on the ball. Yes, we only watch for common violations or will pick up extreme violations. Not sure what one poster meant about not crossing the division line ever as we are all familiar with someone stealing the tip by directly crossing the line, usually done when there is one tall and one short jumper. See example here at 20 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBpR8Y-U0M

But again, notice that this is an extreme breaking of the rules not one based on a slight angle of jump landing. I have had this twice in my career, one being crossing the division line and the other being leaving the back of the circle. Sometimes there are rules in place that are created to prevent egregious/rare/extreme acts but their wording also applies to lesser acts. Clearly, the jump-ball wording in the rule book needs amending. Of course, then we sometimes end up with rule books that are too big. The tax code is a good example of this, lol.

Bottom line is that there is nothing to officiate in the OP. Play on.


(Indeed, thanks JRUT)

Jumping Jacks ...
 

bucky, nice video, thanks for sharing.

I'm not one who shies away from analysis. My point is, regardless of the verbiage in the rule book (which I am not arguing), I do not think the NFHS wants or intends for it to be a violation for the a jumper to cross the division line prior to the jump ball ending. It they did intend for it to be a violation it would have been addressed at some point in some decade by a POE or in the preseason guide.

That's fine, but that note is in the NFHS rule book. There is no verbiage in the NCAA rule book that says a jumper cannot cross the division line prior to the end of a jump ball.

I can see where the college rule book has info regarding jumpers and their restrictions. Article 4 has their feet on their side in their half circle. That is a restriction that does not end until the jump ball ends, as in article 2.

Section 2. Jump Ball
Art. 1. A jump ball is a method of putting the ball into play at the beginning
of the game or any extra period(s) by tossing it up between two opponents in
the center circle.

Art. 2. A jump ball shall begin when the ball leaves the official’s hand. The jump ball and all jump-ball restrictions shall end when the ball touches a non-jumper, the playing court, basket, backboard, an official or when the ball becomes dead.

Art. 3. Jumpers are the two opposing players vying for the tip during a jump
ball.

Art. 4. For any jump ball, each jumper shall have both feet inside the half of
the center circle that is farther from his team’s basket.

Art. 5. Each jumper may face in either direction.

Art. 6. The referee or designee shall toss the ball upward between the jumpers in a plane at right angles to the sidelines, to a height greater than either of the jumpers can jump and so that the ball will drop between them. The jump ball may be repeated when these provisions are not met.

Art. 7. When the ball touches the playing court without being touched by at
least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss the ball again.

Art. 8. Teammates shall not occupy adjacent positions around the center circle when an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions before the referee is ready to toss the ball.

Art. 9. Players may move around the center circle without breaking the
geometrical cylinder that has the center circle as its base after the ball has left the referees hand(s) during the toss. A player positioned more than 3 feet outside the center circle shall not be subject to these restrictions.

NCAA-Men have 9-8 explicitly stating what is a violation. NFHS has 9-6 that refers back to rule 6-3 for violations.

[QUOTE=Raymond;1028175]That's fine, but that note is in the NFHS rule book. There is no verbiage in the NCAA rule book that says a jumper cannot cross the division line prior to the end of a jump ball.[/QUOTE

It isn’t worth this much of our time...

Not sure what your point is. If a jumper lined up next to the other jumper in the wrong half of the circle, you would enforce that because it is a restriction. You are not going to ignore it because it is not a stated violation. Well, maybe you would.

Or, your partner makes a poor toss, jumper A1 quickly runs behind jumper B1, who does not jump, ball comes down, and A1 slaps it to a teammate. Not going to address A1's movement? Just going to play on? Maybe you would.

How about Art 8? Aren't you going to address that restriction when the situation dictates? If an opponent wants a space to which they are legally obliged to have, are you not going to allow it?

It is as if you are arguing that you would only enforce items that are explicitly labeled as violations but I am quite confident that you would enforce restrictions, such as art 8. Why enforce one restriction but not another?

Are you getting choosy in your application of the rules?;)

[QUOTE=BigCat;1028195]True but I just can't stand lies. Huge pet peeve. Gotta let it go. Forgive me. Will stop now.

I'm going to tell the jumper to get back on his side of the division line so we can proceed with the jump ball. Maybe YOU would let him stand there and then call a violation.

I'm going to call the toss back, so all the subsequent action would be moot.

Again, addressed before the toss.

Remind me again about the time YOU called a violation for a jumper landing on the wrong side of the division line. ;)

Riddle Me This ...
 

Better question, how many officials have observed this and ignored it because they didn't know it was a violation?

Or, how about, how many officials have observed this, knew it was a violation, and ignored it?

Or the more general question, how many officials know this is a violation, including knowing when this specific restriction ended?

It's a violation. How come there has not been a point of emphasis yet to get us to call it correctly?

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Ooh, ooh, I know! Because it is monumentally inconsequential.


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Or because that's not the INTENT of the rule and it's just never been addressed because no one has ever called it. My point from the beginning.

I guarantee you if we all spent the rest of the season calling the violation as written, the next year the rule would be changed so that restriction would end when the tossed ball is touched.

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New Wording ...
 

Good, so at least you agree that there should be a point in time when this restriction ends and that this violation should be enforced as a newly written rule?

So under this new wording, it would be a violation for one jumper to cross the division line after the toss but before tap (which can only legally be tapped after it has reached its highest point)?

So the NFHS intended this restriction to end a few seconds before the present wording?

That's what we've been quibbling about in this thread, a few seconds?

Well, at least BigCat came up with the correct interpretation of the rule as it exists right now, before any NFHS changes due to a new intent interpretation.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

We can all agree that this is the present wording, right?

Isn't Aware ...
 

Maybe the NFHS isn't aware that you have been calling it incorrectly?

Every single referee is calling it incorrectly. Because nobody has called a jumper for landing on the other side of the division line.

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Look Up ...
 

Because if it's happened, and I'm sure that it has, as the nontossing official in a two person game I've got other things to keep my eye on.

I'm initially looking up to watch the tap at the highest point, to chop it in, I'm not watching the division line. Changing this restriction to end a few seconds before the present wording really isn't going to help me here, and may make it harder to enforce.

Just as nobody is calling multiple fouls...and there is even a very specific case play for that. Hey look, right back to my tag line. Add this play to the list.;)

You might not be "watching" it, but if a jumper, when the ball was tossed, sprinted across the division line, you would "see" it. All 3 officials would.

Extra Credit Question ...
 

How about this:

6) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. How does one start the game especially in reference to how one sets the alternating possession arrow?

I never said the restriction should not end at some point. Common sense tells us the restriction should end when the tossed ball is touched, because many times a jumper lands on the other side of division line. Common sense tells us that's how we are already adjudicating this play, as nobody in this forum has ever called that a violation.

One paragraph. Anything past that is you having a conversation with yourself.



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Silliness ...
 

I'm in Connecticut. Who is this "third" official you talk about?

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3775/...8029f778_m.jpg

Of All The Gin Joints In All The Towns (Humphrey Bogart, Casablanca, 1942) ...
 

Not sure why, but I would rather be the first official in the universe to call a division line jump ball violation than be the first official in the universe to call a multiple foul.

Nobody would be buying me an adult beverage at the local gin joint after the game if I called either, but if I called the jump ball violation my buddies may still allow me to sit at the bar with them.

The OP had 3. In your case, the scorer at the table.


So true.

Classic movie. Just watched Maltese Falcon the other day and caught end of The Caine Mutiny yesterday. Bogart no good in CM.

Friday's Quiz Answer Sheet ...
 

Time's up. Put your pencils down.

1) Jumper A1 touches the ball more than twice before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled? Keep at 7:58.

2) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, with his catch being the first touch by any player. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled? Reset to 8:00.

3) Jumper A1 taps the ball on the way up. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled? Reset to 8:00.

4) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, his catch being after jumper B1 taps the ball. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled? Keep at 7:58.

5) Neither jumper A1, nor jumper B1, touches the ball after it reaches its highest point and the ball contacts the floor. Nontossing official sounds his whistle so that the jump ball can be tossed again. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled? Reset to 8:00.

6) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. How does one start the game especially in reference to how one sets the alternating possession arrow? Team B gets the ball. Arrow points to Team A (reversing an earlier ruling ("lose the ball, lose the arrow") from when the alternating possession arrow was first introduced).