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-   -   Violation??? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/104206-violation.html)

Scooby Mon Dec 17, 2018 04:48pm
Violation???
 
While administrating a spot throw-in. I gave the ball to A1 who put the ball on the ground, out of bounds and ran in-bounds. A2 came out of bounds, picked up the ball and threw it in to A3. This was done in under 5 seconds. Is this a violation?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Dec 17, 2018 04:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 1027328)
While administrating a spot throw-in. I gave the ball to A1 who put the ball on the ground, out of bounds and ran in-bounds. A2 came out of bounds, picked up the ball and threw it in to A3. This was done in under 5 seconds. Is this a violation?

Yes.

MTD Sr.

so cal lurker Mon Dec 17, 2018 05:35pm
Would it be legal if it were a post-score play after a TO?

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Mon Dec 17, 2018 09:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1027332)
Would it be legal if it were a post-score play after a TO?

No.

MTD Sr.


P.S. When I read So Cal Lurker's question I knew that he asked if the situation that he posted was "legal" but my brain read his question in the same connotation as the Scooby's question: "Is this a violation?" For which the correct answer is: No. But the correct answer to So Cal Lurker's situation as he asked it ("Is this legal?") is: Yes.

Since I retired from college officiating after the 2007-08 season I do not study the NCAA Men's and Women's Rules in detail every year as I did when I still officiated at that level. Therefore, I have a question for NevadaRef: Which of the two situations above in the thread does the A.R. apply and does it apply to both NCAA Men's and Women's?

MTD, Sr.

Nevadaref Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1027332)
Would it be legal if it were a post-score play after a TO?
Yes. MTD is incorrect.
The NCAA has an AR that putting the ball on the floor is not a pass and therefore this action is not allowed, which is nuts, butNFHS has no such ruling.

bob jenkins Tue Dec 18, 2018 08:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1027342)
Yes. MTD is incorrect.
The NCAA has an AR that putting the ball on the floor is not a pass and therefore this action is not allowed, which is nuts, butNFHS has no such ruling.
I agree with Nevada -- the OP is a violation; the revision (after a score) is not.

Raymond Tue Dec 18, 2018 09:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1027332)
Would it be legal if it were a post-score play after a TO?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 1027342)
Yes. MTD is incorrect.
The NCAA has an AR that putting the ball on the floor is not a pass and therefore this action is not allowed, which is nuts, butNFHS has no such ruling.
What A.R. is that? The only one I've seen that is close to that is A1 placing the ball on the floor because he loses his balance, steps onto the court, then returns OOB and picks up the ball.

LRZ Tue Dec 18, 2018 09:48am
Although I may be splitting an extremely fine hair, the answer to the second scenario may not be so clear.

Under 7-5-7, a thrower-in "may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) outside the boundary." Does "outside the boundary" modify "teammate" or "pass the ball along the end line"?

If the former, at the moment A1 set the ball down (assuming this is a "pass"), A2, who was in-bounds, was not "a teammate outside the boundary." If not, then 7-5-7 does not save Team A from a violation.

If the latter, then 7-5-7 would apply.

Unless there is a 15 year-old case, no longer in the book, that says....

Scooby Tue Dec 18, 2018 02:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1027349)
I agree with Nevada -- the OP is a violation; the revision (after a score) is not.
So what is the rule being violated, in NFHS? I do not know which it is?

Raymond Tue Dec 18, 2018 03:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 1027401)
So what is the rule being violated, in NFHS? I do not know which it is?
On a designated spot throw-in no teammates of the thrower-in may go OOB. And they sure as heck cannot swap out the thrower-in once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. Additionally, thrower-in may not leave the throw-in spot until the ball has been released as part of the throw-in.

Rules 4-42, 7-6, and 9-2 cover everything you need to know.

bucky Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027406)
On a designated spot throw-in no teammates of the thrower-in may go OOB.
Very close but not 100% accurate;)

justacoach Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027415)
Very close but not 100% accurate;)
OK, I'll bite.

What's the exception?

BillyMac Wed Dec 19, 2018 01:47am
Leaving The Court For An Unauthorized Reason ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027406)
On a designated spot throw-in no teammates of the thrower-in may go OOB.
This would be a violation for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason, it's not a throwin violation.

Correct?

BillyMac Wed Dec 19, 2018 01:56am
It's The Old Switcheroo ...
 
... the oldest trick in the book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 1027328)
While administrating a spot throw-in. I gave the ball to A1 who put the ball on the ground, out of bounds and ran in-bounds. A2 came out of bounds, picked up the ball and threw it in to A3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby (Post 1027401)
So what is the rule being violated, in NFHS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027406)
On a designated spot throw-in ... sure as heck cannot swap out the thrower-in once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. Additionally, thrower-in may not leave the throw-in spot until the ball has been released as part of the throw-in.
9-2-9: The thrower shall not be replaced by a teammate after the ball
is at the thrower's disposal, except as in 7-5-7.

9-2-1: The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until
the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

Raymond Wed Dec 19, 2018 08:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027406)
On a designated spot throw-in no teammates of the thrower-in may go OOB. And they sure as heck cannot swap out the thrower-in once the ball is at the disposal of the thrower-in. Additionally, thrower-in may not leave the throw-in spot until the ball has been released as part of the throw-in.

Rules 4-42, 7-6, and 9-2 cover everything you need to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027415)
Very close but not 100% accurate;)
We'll be waiting on your rules citation.

Camron Rust Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027426)
We'll be waiting on your rules citation.
I can't think of any real scenario, but I can think of about 8-9 teammates that can be OOB during a designated spot throwin...the ones on the bench.

I had initially thought that the restriction only applied to the boundary on which the throwin occurred but it seems the rule only references being OOB, not just on the throwin boundary line.

bucky Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:39pm
No waiting necessary, read your NFHS case book.

Raymond Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027448)
No waiting necessary, read your NFHS case book.
Either you have a citation or you don't.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

bob jenkins Wed Dec 19, 2018 01:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1027445)
I had initially thought that the restriction only applied to the boundary on which the throwin occurred but it seems the rule only references being OOB, not just on the throwin boundary line.
Correct, but I think that's the (obvious?) intent.

BillyMac Wed Dec 19, 2018 02:17pm
Confused In Connecticut ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1027445)
I had initially thought that the restriction only applied to the boundary on which the throwin occurred but it seems the rule only references being OOB, not just on the throwin boundary line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1027474)
Correct, but I think that's the (obvious?) intent.
I apologize in advance, I thought that I really had a handle on these situations, but somewhere along the way I became confused. I keep reading earlier posts to see if I missed something, but I'm still lost, so please bear with me.

What restriction (on any boundary) is Camron Rust and bob Jenkins referring to (citation please)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027406)
On a designated spot throw-in no teammates of the thrower-in may go OOB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027418)
This would be a violation for leaving the court for an unauthorized reason, it's not a throwin violation. Correct?
And could someone please answer my question (above), is my statement correct?

And if it isn't, why am I incorrect?

Also, bucky, I'm waiting with bated breath.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027448)
No waiting necessary, read your NFHS case book.
Please stop being a tease, I knew a lot of girls in high school like that (I watched Breakfast Club on television last night).

Thank you.

Raymond Wed Dec 19, 2018 02:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027478)
I apologize in advance, I thought that I really had a handle on these situations, but somewhere along the way I became confused. I keep reading earlier posts to see if I missed something, but I'm still lost, so please bear with me.

What restriction (on any boundary) is Camron Rust and bob Jenkins referring to (citation please)?





And could someone please answer my question (above), is my statement correct?

And if it isn't, why am I incorrect?

Also, bucky, I'm waiting with bated breath.



Please stop being a tease, I knew a lot of girls in high school like that (I watched Breakfast Club on television last night).

Thank you.
Rule 9-2-ART. 11

No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins

Rule 9-2 is "Throw-in Provisions".

What rulebook do you IAABO folks in Connecticut operate under? Does it not have this rule citation?

BillyMac Wed Dec 19, 2018 02:44pm
What Eleventh Article ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027481)
Rule 9-2-ART. 11 No teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins
Thank you very much. I knew it, but couldn't cite it (see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027481)
What rulebook do you IAABO folks in Connecticut operate under?
The Stupid BillyMac Rulebook where I stop at Article 10 before the long list of PENALTIES and not realize that there is an Article 11 hiding, all by its lonesome self, below the PENALTIES.

I hate it when some additional articles hide in plain sight. Damn cataracts.

BayStateRef Wed Dec 19, 2018 03:37pm
Conflicting throw-in rules?
 
As noted, 9-2-11 says no teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins. Penalty is ball awarded OOB at the original throw-in spot.

BUT....
it is a legal throw-in when a pass is caught by a teammate OOB. It is an OOB violation (and not a throw-in violation) and the new throw-in will be at the OOB spot where the pass was caught, not the original throw-in spot.

So...
If a teammate catches the ball while OOB, it seems he has violated the provision that says no teammate shall be OOB after a spot throw-in starts.

How do we reconcile these seemingly conflicting rules?

bob jenkins Wed Dec 19, 2018 04:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 1027497)
As noted, 9-2-11 says no teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins. Penalty is ball awarded OOB at the original throw-in spot.

BUT....
it is a legal throw-in when a pass is caught by a teammate OOB. It is an OOB violation (and not a throw-in violation) and the new throw-in will be at the OOB spot where the pass was caught, not the original throw-in spot.

So...
If a teammate catches the ball while OOB, it seems he has violated the provision that says no teammate shall be OOB after a spot throw-in starts.

How do we reconcile these seemingly conflicting rules?
By recognizing that the former is meant to address the situation where the inbounding team tries to switch inbounders, or act as if it's a "run the endline" type of play and fake (or make) a throw to someone else on the endline.

The latter is for the "normal" type of OOB violation.

BillyMac Wed Dec 19, 2018 04:33pm
Restriction Ends ...
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 1027497)
9-2-11 says no teammate of the thrower shall be out of bounds after a designated-spot throw-in begins.
When does this restriction (above) end?

Probably when the throwin ends, but there are other ending times for restrictions within the throwin rules:

The throw-in ends when:
a. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player inbounds.
b. The passed ball touches or is touched by another player out-of-bounds.

The thrower shall not leave the designated throw-in spot until
the ball has been released on a throw-in pass.

The thrown ball shall not be touched by a teammate of the
thrower while the ball is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in
boundary-line plane.

Nit picking? Guilty as charged. Consider it a written test situation.

bucky Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027451)
Either you have a citation or you don't.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
Either you can read or you can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027478)

Please stop being a tease, I knew a lot of girls in high school like that (I watched Breakfast Club on television last night).

Thank you.
I saw that and nearly stayed up to watch Pretty in Pink which followed.:rolleyes:


Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef (Post 1027497)
So...
If a teammate catches the ball while OOB, it seems he has violated the provision that says no teammate shall be OOB after a spot throw-in starts.

How do we reconcile these seemingly conflicting rules?
I do not feel that the provision was violated. When the ball is at the disposal of the thrower, a teammate could not be OOB (with one case play exception) as that would constitute leaving the court for an unauthorized reason. Now, during the throw-in, the teammate could end up (via say push or momentum) OOB. I do not see what there is to reconcile.

Raymond Thu Dec 20, 2018 08:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027516)
Either you can read or you can't.



I saw that and nearly stayed up to watch Pretty in Pink which ....
As usual you have nothing concrete, just a bunch word games. Great contribution to the conversation, you really cleared up that rule for the OP.

BillyMac Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:51am
Ginger Or Mary Ann; Betty Or Veronica ???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027478)
bucky, I'm waiting with bated breath. Please stop being a tease, I knew a lot of girls in high school like that (I watched Breakfast Club on television last night).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027516)
I saw that and nearly stayed up to watch Pretty in Pink which followed.
Molly Ringwald or Ally Sheedy?

WhistlesAndStripes Thu Dec 20, 2018 02:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027516)
I do not feel that the provision was violated.

The facts don’t care about your feelings. — Ben Shapiro


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bucky Thu Dec 20, 2018 08:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1027523)
As usual you have nothing concrete, just a bunch word games. Great contribution to the conversation, you really cleared up that rule for the OP.
The OP was cleared up with the first response..although maybe you did not read that part.

bucky Thu Dec 20, 2018 08:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1027537)
Molly Ringwald or Ally Sheedy?
Easy..Sheedy of course.

Raymond Sat Dec 22, 2018 09:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1027547)
The OP was cleared up with the first response..although maybe you did not read that part.
The original poster (OP) asked a follow-up question, which I answered with rules references that you said were not accurate, but you never provided the citation showing I was wrong.

So as I said, you have contributed nothing this conversation except a bunch of ballbusting.

Now back to the famous "faking to the face" throw-in case play that you'll never answer in the other thread.

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