Boy dunks during halftime of girls game....
 

Technical?

Ignore ...
 

Absolutely not. Ignore (shouldn't you be in the locker room for most of the intermission?)

NO!! Unless he was a member of the girls' team.

MTD, Sr.

If The News Fits, Print It ...
 

Dog bites man. Not news.
Man bites dog. News.

Boy dunks during halftime of girls game. Not news.
Girl dunks during halftime of boys game. News.

Only if he is part of the coaching staff.

Transgender ...
 

While Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. was being facetious here, this is a very serious issue here in Connecticut.

By state law, passed by our legislature, and signed into law by our governor, transgender students can play on the gender team that they identify with.

Now it's not quite as simple as that, the identification must be confirmed by parents, social workers, psychiatrists, psychologists, endocrinologists, etc. (not by surgeons).

We had two transgender girls winning sprint events at our class and open girls state track championships last spring, with complaints by several parents.

Right now it's only track, but it will eventually cross over to team sports, including basketball.

When it comes to most social issues, I'm pretty liberal, and when it comes to civil rights, I'm right there standing up for all minorities, gender, race, religion, age, sexual orientation, sexual identify, etc.

As a retired teacher, I realize that transgender students have a lot on their plates, bullying, depression, suicide, alcohol, drugs, etc., and that playing on the gender team that they identify with may be a positive influence on their life, but something still bothers me about this, something about a level playing field and fairness.

It's going to take much smarter people than me to figure this out.

A big thumb's up to Billy.

MTD, Sr.

Thanks for responses. Just curious. Didn’t happen in my game but question was asked. I said I’d ignore it if I saw it, but would prolly tell player to stay off rim. In Tennessee, GV plays first, then boys. Not far fetched here for a crew to come out with 3 minutes left and boys be shooting around. Apparently this situation happened somewhere in our association tonight. Wanted to be sure to ignore it.

When people want to penalize this I always ask them how they plan to record the technical in the score book.

Why does this come up every few years?

I would ask the officials what they would do if a spectator dunked during halftime.

"Son, off the court, please."

Great Post!

Wasn't there a poster who wrote one time that his state requires a technical foul for this, or am I mis-remembering?

As far as I'm concerned (the rules don't explicitly state this), my jurisdiction for the second game of a DH doesn't start until I come out to observe warm-ups following the end of the first game. Anything that happens prior to the end of the first game is not my issue.

But, somewhere out there is "that guy" who would assess a T for this without any guidance from his state to do so. :rolleyes:

10-4-3 says a player may not dunk a dead ball.
10-5-1-i says bench personnel may not dunk a dead ball.
Unless the boy is a coach, manager, or statistician, he is not held to these rules during a girls game.

The note in 2-8-1 gives officials authority to assign fouls to team attendant or followers, but it also advises that discretion should be used. Unless this dunk was done in some kind of unsporting manner or interfered with the progress of the game, I don't see this rule as being applicable.

As SC Official points out, if this boy is playing in a later game, 2-2-2 could be used by an official who witnessed this to claim jurisdiction in that game and assess a technical foul. Failing advice from your HSAA or similar organization, I don't think this is a wise course of action.

Our state told us to T up the girls team as the players are still representatives of the school/team/program. I have not seen it called.

If the "boy" is a player on either boys varsity team scheduled to play after the girls varsity game - YES. Issue the T.

And we have found "that guy."

I wouldn't, either. In fact I likely wouldn't see it. I'm in the dressing room at halftime and by the time I come out for second half warmups, both teams are already out 95% of the time and non-participants are off the court.

Fair enough....I guess..... But, I'm interested in your reason for supporting the setting aside of rule Rule: 10.5.1?

10.5.1 SITUATION E:

Fifteen minutes before the game is scheduled to start, team member A1 dunks. Two minutes later A2 dunks.

RULING: A1 and A2 are both charged with a technical foul. In addition, the head coach is charged indirectly with a technical foul for each act. The two fouls are team fouls for purpose of reaching the bonus. When dunking occurs during the pregame practice period the official notifies the team member and the head coach, but does not sound the whistle. If the game is played in a state which utilizes the optional coaching box, the coach should be informed that he/she has lost the privilege of using the coaching box for the entire game. (10-5-1i)

Don't Be A Plumber …
 

Reason? The officials jurisdiction, prior to the game, begins when they arrive on the floor at least fifteen minutes before the scheduled starting time of the game. The "team members" that dunk appear to be a actual participants in the game that the officials have jurisdiction over, and whose names will probably appear in the book in about five minutes.

With apologies to Freddy, "Don't be a (retired) plumber".

The Cowgirls Cry A Yippy Yi ...
 

Or, as our good friends in Texas do, hide behind the bleachers and sound a whistle.

I know the pregame dunking rules, but thanks.

My jurisdiction for the second game of a back-to-back doesn't start until I come out to observe warmups following the conclusion of the first game. I'm not going to preside over two games at once. The only people I care about at halftime are the participants of the current contest.

"What rule supports that?" Well, I could just as easily ask the same question regarding why someone would issue a T.

AFAIC, this falls under Rule 2-3. If your state issues guidance to the contrary, great, but thankfully mine does not.

How is this setting aside a rule? Your example is 15 minutes before game time and when you as an official are on the court (by other standards and expectations in the rules). The OP was a situation during the halftime of another game. Now if you feel that is the intent of the written rule, what about if the crew is not working the girl's game or the game before their game and they happened to be in the stands and see a player in their game dunk? What is some guy that you do not know is on either team dunks? You penalizing that too? Is that the spirit of the actual rule?

The rule does not say anytime during the pregame whether that be an hour or 20 minutes before the game. This all applies when the officials have jurisdiction over their game. Halftime of another game has nothing to do with the game the players are playing in. I guess you would also require the players to remove jewelry, illegal equipment or tell them to take off certain color sleeves or items that do not fit the color restrictions during the halftime of the previous games as well? And when they do not comply, are you going to not allow them to play or give them a technical foul if they do not follow your instructions?

Peace

Do you also T a player for Friday who dunks on Tuesday?

Ditch the attitude. My questions aren't designed to challenge your competency. A lot of people read this forum that are seeking information that will likely never take the time to register and request. Discussion beneficial. That's why this forum exists.

Back to the topic at hand - If an official is early for their game and is watching JV or GV officials working the 2nd Qtr of their game and halftime arrives...as they are walking to the locker room, BV players run onto the court for a quick shoot around. They observe a player(s) dunk. Is it the consensus here that they ignore it?

Preside ...
 

Nice post. Common sense. Short. To the point.

None Of My Business ...
 

I can't speak for the consensus, but I'm totally ignoring, but only on days that end in "day".

(Assuming no overriding edict from the Grand Poobah.)

Well, you did (wrongly) say I was setting aside a rule by not issuing a T.

Yes.

lol

Does that include today, yesterday, the other day and any day?

If I'm in the stands, watching an earlier game, or on my way to the locker room, my jurisdiction has not yet begun.

Wear Out My Welcome ...
 

That brings to mind one of my favorite Beatles songs. Wait. I'm being told ... Too much? Too soon? Never mind.

Exactly. And I would, in my case, add "or officiating the first game of a DH" since games are assigned as pairs here.

Checking It Twice ...
 

I enjoy watching my friends working state tournament games. I usually arrive early to get a seat away from crowd, and don't go into the locker room thus interrupting their pregame. When they come out onto the floor I always greet them and tell them that I've got a list of the pregame dunkers. I get a lot of funny replies and a few fingers, and it's usually not the finger that tells me we have less than one minute left in the period.

On a more humorous note or: "And now for something completely different."
 

One of not so numerous problems of officiating in either AAU or YBOA Girls' Nationals was younger brothers wanting to shoot around at half time. I would ask the boys if they shaved their legs every day. The answer was always a resounding NO! I would tell them that the only people that could shoot around were those that shaved their legs every day. That kept them off the court.

MTD, Sr.

I Know, I Was Once One Of Them ...
 

Here in Connecticut we call these "gym rats". They come out of the woodwork any time the court is free.

The state I work in has adopted it's own rule. From an official online message to all basketball officials:

"Players may not dunk during the pregame warm-up before their game or during the half-time of the preceding game. Administration and coaches are responsible to make sure players do not dunk during these periods. Once officials arrive on the court if dunking occurs the penalty is a technical foul. The foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach and the coach loses his/her coaching box privilege for the remainder of the game. This rule is outlined in the basketball manual and is to be followed by all schools during the regular and post season."

When The Grand Poobah Talks, People Listen ...
 

The Grand Poobah has spoken.

The Wizard of Oz, as it were.

Listen (Chicago Transit Authority, 1969) ...
 

Or E.F. Hutton.

https://youtu.be/2_ygqPepLjM

Still (based on the text above), the officials for the game are not yet on the court for that game. Before that, it is on the administrators to deal with it.

Not My Game ???
 

Yes, but once they're on the court they may still be responsible to enforce illegal dunking for personnel who aren't actually in "their" game, especially for officials in a game previous to a boys varsity game.

Is the technical foul charged in the illegal dunking game or in the following game?

If in the illegal dunking game, is there a penalty for adding a name to the scorebook?

Is the indirect technical foul charged in the illegal dunking game or in the following game?

Who sits, the illegal dunking coach, or the following game coach?

Are the technical foul free throws taken in the illegal dunking game, or in the following game?

Many questions, few answers.

I'm glad that I can just ignore.

We are told by the state, in no uncertain terms mind you, that we officials are to take note and penalize any pre-game dunking during the half time of the preceding game if we see it happen. We are not to ignore.

Does this situation happen? Yes. I've personally witnessed it occur during an off night for me while watching a crew work my hometown team two seasons ago (no I wasn't off duty "whistle blowing" on the player that dunked - just an observer). BV dunked during the half time of the preceding JV game. V officials happened to see it.

The state reminds us of this prior to every season during our rules meeting or during an area meeting.

Details, Details ...
 

When in Rome ..., so please answer me these:

Then you needed to state that in your post where you basically accused those of not applying the rules. This is what your state does, not what everyone else does necessarily. That is a big piece of the puzzle or conversation you left out. But for the record, your reference in the casebook does not apply to this. I have never been told to penalize a player for pre-game activities of any kind during a game I had no jurisdiction over or that was not during the game or pre-game in question.

Peace

I didn't accuse. I asked if they/he/whoever supported it.

The answer was "no" along with some commentary.

Good enough for me.

Well you said that those were setting aside the rules in this situation. But I am good if you are good with the current answers.

Peace

Billy Mac:

Is the technical foul charged in the illegal dunking game or in the following game?
A: It is charged to the team and indirectly to the coach whose player dunked and is administered in the following game.

If in the illegal dunking game, is there a penalty for adding a name to the scorebook?
A: I don't know. Was there a name illegally added to the roster?

Is the indirect technical foul charged in the illegal dunking game or in the following game?
A: The following game in which the player who dunked will be participating.

Who sits, the illegal dunking coach, or the following game coach?
A: The following game coach.

Are the technical foul free throws taken in the illegal dunking game, or in the following game?
A: Following game.

Details ...
 

Thank you. Sounds like a plan.

If the first game player (who is not actually a team member in the second game) illegally dunks during halftime of the second game, does the penalty carry over to the next game in which he is a team member?

According to my state, the answer is yes IF, he is a player in the game that follows the half time of the game in which he dunked.

Have Your Act Together ...
 

Thanks. Very often when states screw around with NFHS rules they leave specific situational questions unanswered. It sounds like you guys have your act together, and have covered all the bases.

LMAO..sometimes we ain't dealing with geniuses!

Billy:

Are you channeling Uncle Miltie and stealing my jokes that I stole from others? LOL!

MTD, Sr.

I love when state governing bodies make up stuff that directly goes against playing rules.

Rant/Vent
 

If you are old enough and have been doing this long enough, you probably were schooled in an entirely different officiating philosophy than today's, which is dominated by automatics, required calls, limited discretion, and central office micromanaging. The situation that began this discussion is illustrative.

Sid Borgia, I believe, once said, "I don't call fouls, I dispense justice." Applied to school ball, that's an exaggeration, but the idea remains valid, embodied in notions like advantage/disadvantage and preventive officiating. When I began, we were taught to apply common sense to the rules and mechanics, then allowed to use our judgment and discretion in maintaining good game management.

Now, discretion is discouraged, and automatic calls of all sorts are mandated. I, for one, do not see this as improving the quality of officiating or of the flow of the game itself.

OK, I got that out of my system. I'm calm, now.

I disagree with the blanket statement that "discretion is discouraged."

The reason the "automatic" fouls were implemented was because officials were repeatedly ignoring points of emphasis and directives to clean up hand-checking because it "doesn't affect anything." Additionally, judgment in what was an "advantage" varied so widely by official that it was impossible for coaches and players to adjust. And quite frankly I still see and work with plenty of officials that don't call 10-1-4 (NFHS ref?) fouls as diligently as they should. The codifying of these fouls wouldn't have been necessary if officials had followed the directives to start with.

But on drives to the basket or violations, for example, discretion and judgment of advantage/disadvantage are still encouraged and taught as far as I'm concerned.

And in the OP, that's simply not a technical foul by rule unless one's state has issued guidance to the contrary.

Consistency ...
 

Now that I'm reaching the end of my officiating career I'm reminiscing about the guys I observed when I first started. The best guys back then (1980) didn't have perfect mechanics, couldn't figure their way through the proper rules for odd plays (correctable errors, etc.), and made up signals as they went along, but they could make the tough calls and fairly officiate and manage the game (there were some guys back then who could call a game and who had good mechanics, rule knowledge, and signals, some, but not many).

A long time hard ass coach (whose players, in three sports, would never say a disrespectful word to officials) recently passed away and was remembered at our last board meeting. An encounter was described between this coach and one of our old time veterans, who also since passed away. In the incident described the veteran just tossed the coach out of the game, no technical foul called, no free throws, he just tossed him out of the gym, and moved on with the game.

Today it's all about consistency, we can often be described as "robots". I'm all for consistency, it helps the game, but it has also taken much of the fun out of officiating basketball.

SC Official, your experience is different from mine. YMMV, so I will amend my remarks to address only the world I know, here in SE PA.

Around here, the only officials who talk about advantage/disadvantage and discretion are old-timers like me. At chapter meetings, we are much more likely to get, "This is what is required."

"Consistency" becomes chimerical and complete uniformity is impossible to mandate. Even taking into account the tendencies (or limitations) of individual officials, the game is simply too fast, too fluid. POEs are fine, but when the same points must be reiterated every season, maybe that's because they simply can not be met to anyone's satisfaction.

Would the flow and quality of the game (to borrow a phrase from another thread) really be improved by calling every two-hand touch, for example? Are we to apply advantage/disadvantage on drives to the basket but not to a player dribbling laterally at mid-court without advancing? In this world of mandates and POEs, if you accept some notion of discretion, you are already contradicting mandates.

Officials with good game management skills will often ignore meaningless automatics, in the interest of letting the game flow. Perhaps consequently, a bureaucrat will then decide, "We need to re-issue this POE because people aren't calling it."

What I see here is a conflict between pseudo-objective "consistency" and good game management. Good officials, with good judgment, don't need mandates and automatics; mediocre officials, with poor judgment, won't be improved by them.

I'm a crotchety, cynical old man: I much prefer "teach, then trust."

Blame coaches. They are the ones who write the rules and clamor for "consistency," leading to the black-and-white adjudications that you don't care for.

And again, blame officials who were ignoring POE's for years.

Also technology. When the film shows that one official is calling two hands on the ball handler and the other is "letting 'em play," that's a problem. Hence the implementation of automatic fouls.

This is what I heard someone say one time...

Between the free throw lines = RSBQ, automatics
Drives to the basket = start, develop, finish

I think this way when I officiate.

I have a buddy whose captain's meetings always contain the statement "from free throw line to free throw line keep your hands off the ball-handler".

I've been very frustrated this season and last in getting partners to clean up handsy on-ball defenders. It is really detrimental on smaller high school courts where the ball-handlers have less room to operate and in games where ball-handlers aren't as skilled.

I did that in a HS rec game this past spring. Coach said something personal to me that most definitely crossed the line, but was only heard by me, the table personnel (who are employees of the city rec department), and the normal HC who was acting as an assistant. I told the dude he had to go. No tech, no explanation to my partner, no reporting to the table.

Takin' Care Of Business (Bachman Turner Overdrive, 1973) ...
 

Respect man. Respect. Take care of business.

Why is your buddy making a statement that boxes one into a corner? Just go out and officiate the game. There should not be any hands on the Ball Handler.

MTD, Sr.

Ok, I gotta give you guys credit you are way to patient with Mr. #olderthanklook. I had to go get my boots on after post #38 where he posted the text from the alleged guidance issued by his state. I’m calling BS on it.

I have two questions I’d like answered about this :

1. What state issued this guidance?

2. Give us the name of the person who penned this guidance so it can be verified.

For the rest of the group, I’d love to hear someone else from whatever this state occurred in to verify this too.

I’m sorry, I just don’t buy it. I mean really, can anyone here imagine walking into a gym on a Friday night and starting a game with two shots and the ball because a player in that game had dunked during halftime of a game on Tuesday night in which they were not a participant? Really?!?!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To Each His Own ...
 

To each his own, and when in Rome ...

I've got my pregame speech down to the bare minimum. After the handshakes, fist bumping, kissing, and introductions: Players legally equipped. Players wearing uniforms properly. Practice good sportsmanship. Got anything else (partner). Have fun.

Period.

You'd have to have that conversation with him. I've never felt boxed in.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Well, that is not the actual rule where it says "no hands" on the ball handler at all.

And I would not feel boxed either if that is the way to convey to the players what they should not be doing.

Heck I say "hands, hands, hands" when a player even gets close to a ball handler. I only call a foul when the rules say it is a foul. And no I do not give a darn if the coach hears me either.

Peace

F no.

Close the thread, mods.