Halftime Questions
 

Is there any reason why an official would ask the official score keeper for foul counts on various players at halftime of a game. It would seem to me that this is not something an official would need or want to know at this point in the game.

Maybe the official might want to figure out who the problem players are, based on foul trouble. I don't know what other explanation could be there.

Are you asking as the scorer?


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I am asking as the Athletic Director who hired the official score keeper. She came to me after the game asking why an official would ask.

I am not trying to stir anything up. I just wanted to know if this is a common practice that I need fo be aware of.

Dirty Little Secret ...
 

We're all thinking it, and dancing around the topic, so I might as well say it out loud.

Some officials want to make sure that the star players on both teams don't foul out on "gray area" fouls near the end of the game, they want to be 100% sure that a star player's fifth foul is a "real" fifth foul.

It's a dirty little secret among some officials. Now if any Forum member tells anybody else, they'll have to kill them.

We all have officiated with officials who want to have that type of information. I do not want it and if a partner gave me that information I would let it go through one ear out the other. WAIT!! That is not what I meant to say. I would ignore the information. Officiate the game the way one would always officiate the game and let the chips fall where they may.

MTD, Sr.

I want to know who has 4 fouls, yes. I don't want to call any marginal fouls, but I want to be aware of who has 4. The other team, if smart, will try to get a fifth and for me it works both ways -- don't miss an actual foul, but don't put one on that player if it isn't deserved.

I also want to know if there are any GFUs and sometimes the foul list can help with that discussion at halftime.

Rich:


I respectfully disagree. Why? If it is a foul in the first thirty seconds of the game then it is a foul in the last thirty seconds of the game.


MTD, Sr.

It goes without saying that I'd rather not call any marginal fouls.

But I especially don't want to call a fourth or fifth on anyone, especially an impact player who will not either have to play differently or will be out of the game if it's not an obvious, necessary foul.

I'd just rather know. A lot of top officials I've spoken with and have heard speak agree with me. Others don't. I'm just telling you where I sit on this.

It's a good practice for an official to be aware of foul trouble, but not to explicitly ask. Later in games I will sometimes have the 2 scorers confirm they have the same players with 3 or more fouls.

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Special Players Getting Special Treatment ...
 

Special players getting special treatment isn't just an NBA concept.

That's not my bag, it doesn't seem like the intent and purpose of the rules, but I understand how it accepted by many others.

It's not special treatment, it's acknowledgement that a shitty call on an impact player is a much bigger deal than on someone who pops in to give a guy a 2 minute blow in the second quarter.

I want to know who has 3 at all times. Impact player, non-impact player, anyone. I won't hesitate to call those fouls when they're there.

Consistency ...
 

It most certainly is, you'll get no argument from me.

And neither would I. Throughout the game, in regard to calling fouls, I try to be consistent with my partner, consistent with what has already been called in the game, consistent with my local board's philosophy on advantage/disadvantage, freedom of movement, late game strategic fouls, etc., and I try to maintain that consistency for thirty-two minutes.

Is it inconceivable that consciously trying to avoid a "shitty call" in this situation could lead to a shitty no call?

Leads to increased concentration and certainty on my part.

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It might not be common practice, but I will and have asked questions about what is a stat or two that might explain the first half or give us some idea as to what might happen in the second half. There might be a reason they are asking because the coach might have made a big deal out of it. So they want to know so they are aware of what the coach is talking about. Honestly, if I ask those questions, I do not care why others might not care. I am asking for myself.

A few weeks ago I asked in a college game for what one of the teams shot in the first half. I was opposite the table and the stat guy was right next to me, so I asked him what was the percentage. It helped me figure out that that was not going to continue and we would have a much closer game in the second half. The team that shot the high percentage ended up losing. No one was in foul trouble, but I might have asked if it was a factor in the game. Any information a crew can have can help them tell figure out what is happening or what might happen.

Peace

I'll buy that. But for me I think that means I have a tendency to blow less whistles on anyone late in a close game, not just impact players. ("LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE THE GAME!!") Put me in the camp of never asking who has three or four fouls, but quite often we know anyway, whether we like it or not.

I just like to know so we can properly administer the fifth foul instead of having the table buzz us back. Plus we can sometimes figure out the offense and better judge any contact if we know who they might be "attacking."

A Final Four official said this to me at camp this year and it resonated with me because I used to hate when guys would mention that:
If you get a cheap 3rd foul in the first half or a cheap 4th/5th in the second half on the best player on that team, rather than having the best player on the floor, you’ve now got the 6th best player on the floor. Does that improve the flow and quality of the basketball? That has reshaped my philosophy, and while I will go get it if it’s there, if it’s marginal or 50/50 as to whether it’s a foul or who the foul is on, I’m going to choose wisely in an effort to preserve the quality of basketball being played.

Wow! Really? I find that rather absurd. The 6th best player is going to cause a big drop off in the flow and quality of the game? Virtually every game has stretches where play can get sloppy even with the best 5 players from each team in the game. Players 10-15 might certainly affect the flow and quality (but at that point the game has likely been decided) but the 6th player? I can't ever think of a time where I was even remotely concerned about the 6th player affecting the flow and quality of a game. I think sometimes we believe big-time officials are giving us nuggets when it's really only fools gold.

I honestly never would "ask" for this information. If our "game awareness" is good, we can pick this up from the announcer, the scorekeeper indicating or relaying it to the head coach or other scorekeeper when we report, or in some facilities, it is posted on the scoreboard. And I will admit, I generally liked knowing who was in foul trouble; but I never asked.

In a college game? Maybe. Not sure how much high school ball you do but that can be a big difference, especially in the girls game. It’s also not always a perfect sixth player for best player substitute situation. If the best player is a post player, it’s likely the next post in is probably going to be some big bruiser or a gangly kid who can’t handle the ball. Maybe he’s the 8th or 9th best player. Either way, the quality of the game, the flow, the fun aspect of officiating the game, etc all take a dip. Like I said, I was the same as most of you but it’s not a bad thing to manage a game. I mean no offense in saying this, but I’m much more apt to take my cues from Terry Oglesby than billyu2 from the internet message board. Just my two cents on how my game has evolved a bit this year.

I don’t care about who the best players on the team are. The “quality” of basketball taking a dip is not something I get bent out of shape over and quite frankly think it’s a myth that officials buy into for some reason. Not sure why we would let the fact that the best player is on the bench f*ck our game up.

I do, however, care about who the GFUs are, even if that includes one of the best players (if the best player is staring down an opponent every time he scores, I don’t need him in the game).

No offense at all. I enjoy the discussion. Terry is expressing from his experience as a big time official. From my experience of 30+ HS I can say most often the better players are better not just by skill but by aggressiveness and physicality. When they inevitably get into foul trouble and have to sit, the game often has better flow and perhaps lesser quality. Either way, I don’t consider that much of a priority. I’ve worked hard and had games with good flow and quality and games where there was no flow and little quality.

That's fair. I don't mean for it to sound like I'd protect anyone. I'm just going to make sure that it's an elephant if I'm going to get them for their 4th or 5th. I worked with a guy last week that called the 3rd on a kid when the offensive player ran into them and bounced off. Player was legal and was just bigger. Partner said he wished he had that one back. I'm just going to be absolutely sure it's a foul in that situation, no marginal stuff.

I ideally want no marginal fouls on any player at any point during the game. The time/score situation dictates the patience of my whistle and my processing of the play more so than who the player is. That is not to say that a foul in the 1Q isn't a foul at the end of the game, but it is to say that I need to have higher certainty in critical situations.

If it looks like I'm protecting a team's best player you can bet the other coach will let me know it, so I don't do that. There are some officials that basically stop one step short of teaching that protecting the best players is a good practice, and the foul needs to be a trainwreck to be called. To me that's a shameful way to officiate.

That said, if I have the opportunity to get a foul on a GFU that puts him on the bench and the film can support, I won't hesitate to grab it.

I see pros and cons. I like the idea of access to data that informs practice so getting info that helps me or my crew (my crew and I?) seems advantageous.

I've also been in games where I've seen/felt pressure to keep a kid in the game and started over analyzing situations or calls. Me problem not a philosophical concern.

Example from last years local regional playdown. My partner and I were working a quarter final game. (1 pair of officials for each quarters, regrouped for semi's, 3rd place, and final.) Late in a close quarter final game my partner has a conversation with the coach telling him to have his #8 be careful because she doesn't want to pick up her 5th on something reckless. He responded back that she only has 2. he goes to me and the the book next Time Out coach is correct. He had been giving her some leeway as he didn't want her fouling on on marginal calls.

Next game he gets in the semi her team is in and she gets 5 fouls in about 9 minutes of playing time.

Not criticizing either situation, just using it to illustrate the pros and cons. Having the right information can allow you to manage a game. Having misinformation or no information can allow you to mismanage. But having the information might actually impact how you see or deal with particular player or call. You have to be ok with that.

More knowledge or information always impacts perspective. You have to find your level of comfort with the amount of information and perspective you apply.

Never mind the numbers, I don't think there is any question that when a player leaves the game and a player of lesser ability comes in it can have a significant impact on the game. BUT, when a player gets into foul trouble it is the player who should be "more careful," not the official.

Not all players with high abilities make the game better, some make it worse and having them out makes the game go better.

Making the game go better is one example of significant impact.

Do What I Say, Not As I Do ...
 

Started my new life as a subvarsity official tonight. Girls junior varsity game. Within the first minute I call two easy rebounding fouls on White #44, White's tallest player, one down the offensive end and, after our switch, one down the defensive end. Not an especially rough player just wrong place, wrong time.

For some reason her coach doesn't take her out of the game. In the next minute White #44 and White #13 both push and "sandwich" an opposing player. I've got the whistle. In a split second I decide not to call a multiple foul (I never have called one, never seen one called, I'm not even sure how to penalize) and consciously, intentionally, and deliberately made a decision to charge the foul to White #13 instead of White #44.

I never even tried to think it over and figure out who, if anybody, fouled first, I just knew that I wasn't charging White #44 with her third foul in the first few minutes, all called by me.

I should practice what I preach, but I guess, sometimes I don't.

Multiple Foul ...
 

No try involved. Before the bonus (apparently not relevant):

Multiple Foul: One free throw for each foul: No try involved.

Really? Before the bonus?

That certainly would get everyone's attention.

Has anyone ever called a multiple foul?

In Fact It Was A Little Bit Frighting ...
 

Any coach who saw me do this couldn't help but to put me on their state tournament ballot as "fast as lightning". Probably wouldn't even wait for the game to end.

(Sorry, still got Carl Douglas's Kung Fu Fighting playing in my head).

Multiple foul plays happen every game and no one enforces it. Like my tagline?

50/50 Calling officials suck. No patience no great judgement. All of our calls should be clear and make the game better. If we have a crew making those calls the coaches and players have a decision to make. Play a lot cleaner or foul out. The kid has 5 chances to figure it out. If he fouls out he didnt adapt and we shouldn't have to track this.

Just my 2 cents.

Problem with multiples is that they really aren't by the book possible except for during a try. Second 'foul' on a non try would be a during the dead ball by definition so it would be ignored unless it bad enough to warrant a T.

Multiple Foul Defined ...
 

While I don't call them, nor have I seen anybody call one, I disagree.

In my previously posted situation where a Red player was sandwiched between two pushing defenders, White #44 and White #13, the two separate pushes happened at exactly the same time (by the naked eye, no slow motion video), no try was involved (it was a rebounding foul), and it fits the classic definition of a multiple foul: A multiple foul is a situation in which two or more teammates commit personal fouls against the same opponent at approximately the same time.

I don't what to be "that guy" and be the first person in the universe to call a multiple foul. With everybody's grandmother having a cell phone camera, it would be all over social media "as fast as lightning".

My theory:

The rules book legitimately has "double" and "false-double" fouls. And, it legitimately has "false-multiple" fouls. But, you can't have a "false something" without also having that "something." So, the definition and penalty was added just for completeness.

Well, you really wouldn't need to even define false-multiple if there were no multiple. The "false-multiples" would just be fouls.

Where was your co-offical(s) ? They were officiating the same game ? Your choice we’ve all made ..but you Crew has to be on same page and know they also have to step it up ..