Nine second rim hang = no call
 

I am sure most have seen it by now. Lebron James dunked a ball and hung on the rim, with no one around him, for 9 seconds. Yes, he was clearly drawing attention to himself. ESPN timed it and questioned the no call of a technical foul. I wonder if the refs would have acted the same if Alex Caruso had done that? NBA, gotta love it, lol.

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 

I've got the videotape:

https://youtu.be/8z8SpgmF0sA

I Thought It Was Both Humorous And Spot On ...
 

Can I nominate myself for Post O' The Month?

Thanks for keeping us abreast of the situation.

Fast forward to the 1:00 mark.

https://youtu.be/5N2XdRsrMeo

Last two-minute report

This would be illegal in an NFHS or NCAA game, because he continues to hang long after he completes the initial act of the dunk, and there is no injury risk caused to him or others if LeBron lets go. Perhaps the NBA rule is different, but under the codes that most of us work, this play is illegal.

You clearly don't get it. The NBA is about providing entertainment to make $. The league doesn't give a damn about player behavior, sportsmanship, or rules. They want butts in the seats, people watching on TV, and advertisers paying for commercials. The attitude is that people aren't watching to see the officials call traveling. Now why would you think that the league admins would want officials calling techs on the most talented players for hanging on the ring when everyone is watching to see those guys do exactly that.

Someone already posted the L2M report from the NBA, so everyone's personal speculations are rather moot at this point.

As the report said, he wasn't taunting and it was during a TO. Who cares?

On the top 10 list of things an NBA ref has to worry about, this is #93.

They 100% care about these things, albeit mostly in relation to making dat $$$. Although it's pretty clear they also care about respect for the referee more than any other sport with the number and amount of fines they dish out for technicals, criticizing referees performance, etc. which doesn't have any direct monetary benefit for them.

Any Time During The Game ...
 

Who? Those of us who may not officiate NBA basketball, who may only officiate high school basketball, and who want to understand why this situation my be legal in an NBA game, and not legal in a NFHS game.

In a NFHS game, the timeout, the not taunting opponents, and the not delaying the game aspects of the NBA ruling have little to do with the NFHS rule (players clearing the area under the rim is relevant in NFHS rules. I'm not sure what the NBA means by it's legal because it's during a dead ball, doesn't most ring grasping take place during the dead ball period immediately after a dunk).

NFHS: A player shall not: Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent injury.

Any time during the game could mean pregame, halftime, postgame (before officials leave the court), intermissions (all by bench personnel), or during dead balls, or timeouts.

Coaches, players, and fans will see this legal NBA play on television and wonder why it's illegal in a high school game.

That's why some of us care. Goodnight moon.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.r...=0&w=300&h=300

How is hanging on the rim related to the game? I understand making a dunk, but hanging on for a long time is showing off, and is not an effective form of defense. I want to be an NBA official, because I believe that these guys are the best in the business, and I want to challenge myself to be at their level.

Well, if you care, then you should have read by now the post from Altor that states why it is legal in the NBA. So my point stands that all the personal speculation is moot. We have a ruling and a source. The rest is just the normal b!tching and moaning about the NBA, and in your case, a failure to read the pertinent post.

Read All About It ...
 

I read all about the NBA rules making this ring grasp legal. Now we have all been reminded why this is illegal in NFHS rules.

If I failed to read the pertinent post, how would I know this:

If I'm allowed to speculate, what does the NBA mean by it's legal because it's during a dead ball, doesn't most ring grasping take place during the dead ball period immediately after a dunk?

From the NBA: The ball is dead and he is not taunting opponents or delaying the game.

Does the NBA define dead ball differently than the NFHS? I guess that that is possible.

Damage And Injuries ...
 

Damage to the rings/backboards, and injuries to the players.

Throughout the history of the game of basketball, certain players have held enormous physical advantages that completely changed the way the game was played on both offense and defense. These players were so dominant that they caused many rule changes, rule changes that were supposed to reduce the dominance of these gifted players to make their style of play a bit fairer to other players. Most of these rule changes were originally instituted in NCAA, or NBA games, but these changes eventually trickled down to NFHS rules.

When Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) (UCLA 1966-1969, NBA 1969-1989) started playing basketball for UCLA Bruins, NCAA officials felt that the seven foot, two inch All-American center, being especially tall and athletic, could place the ball over the rim and throw it through the hoop with ease. This feat of athleticism which we all know as the dunk and seems so routine was not so routine back in the mid-1960’s. It was considered unfair that he could do it so easily. So the NCAA banned dunking in 1967. This was called the “Alcindor Rule”. Another reason dunking was outlawed was to prevent injury and equipment damage. A distorted rim could delay a game. As a result of the rule, Alcindor developed a great hook shot, the “Sky Hook”, which he used effectively during his playing days in college, and in the NBA. After multiple issues with the new rule and the invention of the breakaway rim the NCAA allowed the dunk to be legal again during 1976-1977 season which was shortly after UCLA Coach John Wooden's retirement. The “Alcindor Rule” eventually trickled down to NFHS rules. In 1967, the NFHS banned dunking in high school basketball games. In 1970, the NFHS also prohibited dunking during pregame warmups. Like the NCAA, the NFHS reversed itself in 1976 and a rule change allowed dunking during the game but not during pregame warmups, nor during intermissions, and with a later rule change in 1978 outlawing dunking a dead ball.

Darryl Dawkins (NBA 1975-1989), the Philadelphia 76ers six foot, eleven inch, 251 pound center, in a game against the Kansas City Kings at Municipal Auditorium on November 13, 1979 dunked and broke the backboard sending the King’s Bill Robinzine ducking away. Three weeks later he did it again, this time at home against the San Antonio Spurs at the Spectrum. Thus, Dawkins became famous for his backboard shattering dunks and is credited for being the player to cause the NBA to introduce breakaway rims. Breakaway rims are now an essential element of the game of basketball. A broken backboard or distorted rim could delay a game for hours. In 1981 the NFHS adopted specifications for breakaway rims.

Shaquille O'Neal (LSU 1989-1992, NBA 1992-2011) a seven foot, one inch, 325 pound center, was one of the heaviest players ever to play in the NBA. O'Neal dunked with so much power that he broke the steel supports holding backboards during games against the New Jersey Nets and the Phoenix Suns while playing for the Orlando Magic during the 1992–93 NBA season. This prompted the NBA to increase the strength and stability of the backboard supports and change the stanchion design for the following 1993–94 season. The NFHS added backboard support specifications to the rules in 1996-97.

It means the ball wasn't live and he wasn't hanging on the rim while other players are trying to shoot or something like that.


You've been given an explanation and you're still not satisfied, that's the problem. I don't see anybody else here confused as to what the ruling would be in their own games. Why do you feel like other officials in this forum don't know the rules and how to apply them to their own games?

Did anybody here give an indication that this would be legal in one of their games? Anybody here say they don't know the rule in one of their own games?

Your constant speculation does more to confuse new officials than help them.

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Education Is the Key To Success ...
 

One single explanation (from Raymond, above, "or something that"). Not a single explanation regarding the NBA "dead ball" statement before Raymond's. And who says that I'm not satisfied after getting the single explanation?

Why do you assume that everyone who views this Forum, both members, and nonmembers, are officials? We have players, coaches, and fans that get sent here after posing a question on a search engine. Some decide to join just to ask questions (long time lurker, first time poster).

Why do you assume that every official on this Forum is experienced, knows all the rules, knows all the interpretations, knows all the mechanics, knows all the differences in rule sets, etc. Officials have to be beginners at some point in their career, they're not born as great officials that never have any questions.

I view one of the purposes of the Forum to be educational. Maybe I'm in the minority? Maybe I'm biased because of my thirty-plus year teaching background, my service on training committees for both rules and mechanics, and the publication of several of my educational basketball officiating articles in magazines?

Teaching is in my blood, whether it's teaching science, or teaching basketball officiating.

I've been officiating for almost four decades, and I've been a Forum member over a dozen years, and yet, I learn something on the Forum all the time. And if I don't learn something new, I'm often reminded about things that I already know, things that are reinforced in my mind. Repetition is an important part of learning. Most people don't learn something well by learning it only once.

I view it to be educational also. And I also view it to be tailored towards basketball officials. You throwing in stories about Lew Alcindor, Darryl Dawkins, and James Naismith doesn't help a new official or a lurking fan understand the rules. It just throws in a bunch of extraneous thoughts in their mind that have nothing to do with the rule they are trying to learn.

If you want to know the NBA rule, look it up and provide us the information, instead of waiting for someone else to do your legwork. You have the same access to the NBA rules as anyone else in this forum.

And I'll ask you again, do you seriously think anybody in the forum doesn't know this would a Technical Foul in the rule set they officiate?

Not The Sharpest Tool In The Shed ...
 

Officials? Absolutely not. They all know it.

Coaches, players? They probably know it also.

Fans? Often not the sharpest tools in the shed.

Me? NBA? Still not sure about the dead ball thing, but believe that it was the correct no-call based on the NBA's followup. Regarding NBA rules, other than whetting my innate curiosity, like our beautiful First Lady, I really don't care, so I won't pursue it.

Note: I guarantee that ilyazhito will never again wonder why hanging on the ring is a bad thing. It's all about context. Am I right ilyazhito?

Does "CNC" mean correct no call? I presume that it does. Curious about a couple of items:

1) Do they acknowledge all "CNCs"? Wouldn't there be many within the last two minutes? There are many cases (like several every play) of contact where a foul is not called. I am guessing that they do not so why would they acknowledge this one? (IMO, because everyone questioned it)

2) The provided rational seems illogical. Does their explanation mean that any player can simply grab and hang onto a rim during a dead ball with no one around as long as they are not taunting or delaying the game? I am guessing not. What about say, the backboard? Could they grab the rim, pull up, and climb to the top of the backboard as long as that given criteria is met? Also, guessing not. Could they swing like a pendulum from the net for the duration of the timeout given said criteria is met? Guessing not. Ergo, the explanation is a slap in the face as far as I am concerned. Again, I know it is about money/entertainment/etc. Additionally, hanging on the rim with the same criteria has been called a T hundreds of times. What makes this play different, especially since the hang is so long?


Draymond Green (see below link) does same thing (TO called as he hangs) but gets a Technical. Also, LBJ does it and NBA confirms that it was an incorrect no call. Sooooo, it does not get more contradictory, inconsistent, and hypocritical than that. Unless of course...... something changed between then and now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Wd6vk3--0

Maybe you should take all these questions to the people that actually run the NBA and the officiating program. i.e. none of us

At the end of the day, NBA officials do as they are instructed by their powers-that-be. It really is no different than what high school or college officials do, or what we all do in our full-time jobs. Yet for some reason high school officials love to bash on NBA basketball and its officials, who are the best in the world at their career.

Illogical ...
 

From the NBA: The ball is dead and he is not taunting opponents or delaying the game.

Since you brought it up, the only part that I found illogical was, paraphrasing here, "It's legal because it's a dead ball", explanation. Doesn't most illegal ring grasping take place during the dead ball period immediately after a dunk?

Everything else can be logically explained as, "It's the NBA. Rules are different than in other rule sets".

I'm not looking for any further explanation, like our First Lady, I really don't care.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.I...=0&w=216&h=163

Yes

I would think this is where the evaluator and editor have to make decisions about what needs to be included. Putting in a bunch of "CNC - This is not traveling because the player is dribbling the ball" would not be beneficial to anybody.

Maybe in your next lifetime.

I know refs with NBA potential. You do not begin to measure up.

I hope you are Buddhist:)

You act as if these questions have not been taken to those that run the NBA and the officiating program. They do not have transparency so one tends to take them elsewhere with hopes of clarification. Bashing is fun when against all hypocrites. Funny how consistency is probably a high goal for all officials (at least all of the thousands I have encountered) but yet here is a prime example of the "best in the world" being extremely inconsistent, to the point of having it documented. Sometimes being inconsistent and considered the best is not that great....wait, unless you are in that group, then it is OK.;)

Now, where did Billy leave his keys...

Goal Oriented ...
 

I want to get through my subvarsity doubleheaders without my bone spur locking up my right ankle, without my left knee acting up, without having another heart attack, and without waking up the next morning on the wrong side of the grass.

The early bird gets the worm. I don't want the early worms to get me.

How about those for lofty goals?

I'll Turn The Garden Hose On Them ...
 

They're probably with my reading glasses.

I don't have time to look for them because have to yell at the neighbor kids to get the hell off my front lawn. I haven't stored my garden hose away for the winter yet.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/lowres.cart...cn4561_low.jpg

NBA refs have more accountability than anybody who posts on the board, including you and me. Bashing is petty and bullsh!t.

I think the hostility towards our college-aged poster is unwarranted. Nobody here knows him personally or has seen him officiate.

Years ago Jurassic was equally dismissive of and combative towards a young poster who went by the handle of "btaylor64". Three guesses what the "b' stands for and where he is working now.

Please don't misapprehend good-natured ribbing as hostility.

I have done my part in encouraging and grooming young officials.

Would not venture to counsel our young friend solely based on his bombastic public utterances.

Triumph The Insult Comic Dog ...
 

Here in my little corner of Connecticut, we thrive on yanking each other's chains. If one isn't getting their chain yanked, one should wonder what they're doing wrong.

When I work with a partner that I haven't worked with in a long time, he says, "It's been awhile.", I reply, "Yeah. I told (our assigner) that I didn't want to work with you any more".

I would never say that to a partner who I really didn't want to work with.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.m...=0&w=176&h=169

Actually, I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian. So I won't have this next life you speak of, just an opportunity to possibly referee basketball in Heaven after I die, if that is what the Lord wills.

I guess btaylor is in the NBA now

Yes, that would be Ben Taylor, who has a reputation as one of he top rules knowledge officials in the NBA.

Perhaps ilyazhito and btaylor64 will have games together sometime in the next decade. It looks like there is a lot in common between me and him: both of us are rules aficionados ;).

LeBron SchmeBron, you hang I bang. The rules are not written differently for the stars than they are for the role players, so it makes no sense to give "star calls".

"SchmeBron, you hang I bang. The rules are not written differently for the stars than they are for the role players, so it makes no sense to give 'star calls.'"

You might have to rethink this when you get to the big show.

So you are totaling ignoring the L2M report posted at the beginning of the thread?

Comments like these are the ones that are causing forum members to be rubbed the wrong way by you.

It is fine to have goals and aspirations; it is another thing to be showy and overconfident. Intentional or not, that is how you come off often on this forum.

It has already been posted that the L2Ms can be contradictory/inconsistent. And there are L2Ms that suggest a T should have been called and was not.

L2M's always explain the rationale behind the decision and there is only one L2M report for that play, so I don't know what you're basing your comment on.




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Sorry, I can't force you to read/understand. The inconsistencies in L2Ms have already been demonstrated/shown. Given that, your question about ignoring them would be illogical.

Now, respond to this with some weird comment so you can have the last word and the topic can resolve itself from its momentum.


(the last 5 words are for you Seinfeld fans)

SCOfficial, I know that there is a color for sarcasm, but is there a color for humor? I was obviously joking, but maybe I missed putting another smiley after the first sentence ;).

I still stand by my original opinion that LeBron James should receive a technical foul. If I was working a game with him, I could tell him to get off the rim, but if he doesn't listen, he's earned his technical foul, whether for hanging on the rim, or for refusing to comply with the reasonable request of a game official. The same could apply to any high school all-star that might happen to be playing in any of my games, or to a regular player on either team.

Raymond, if the L2Ms are inconsistent, I won't rely on them. What I can rely on is what is written in the rulebook and casebook, and either of those would say that hanging on the rim is illegal, if not a part of a basketball play or done to avoid an injury. Hanging on the rim for 9 seconds after a dunk is clearly excessive, as there is ample time for players to clear the area under the basket, and there is no further basketball play that a player can accomplish by hanging on the rim once a dunk attempt is complete. The consequence for violating the rule against hanging on the rim is a technical foul charged to the offender, so case closed.

Feel free to show me the conflicting L2M reports that address this play. It would be pretty stupid for the NBA to publish multiple L2M reports for the same game.

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Someone posted THE L2M entry for this play, did you read it?

http://official.nba.com/2018-19-nba-...inute-reports/

CNC = Correct No Call

Waiting for someone to post these other mystery L2M reports for the Lakers/Hawks game.

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Deemed contradictory by whom, persistent NBA haters who don't take the time to research the applicable rules?

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You won't be an NBA ref if you think you are going directly contradict NBA rulings.

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Bueller, Bueller?

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I've seen players grab the rim and pull themselves up as a pre game routine in the NBA (just before the tip off). If the league wants players to stop doing that I'm sure they'll let them know.

I've checked the NBA Rulebook, and Rule 12-IV-a says that "an offensive player who deliberately hangs on his basket ring, net backboard, or support during the game shall be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul". Thus, if LeBron James (an offensive player) deliberately hangs on his ring, by rule, I am correctly adjudicating the play if I assess him a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul. I don't understand how a player can accidentally hang on his ring for 9 seconds after a dunk attempt.

Lots Of Exceptions ...
 

a) unless it's after a timeout is called.
b) unless players have cleared the area under the rim.
c) unless the ball is dead.
d) unless the player is not taunting opponents.
e) unless the player is not delaying the game.
f) unless the hang time exceeds ten seconds.
g) unless the player is LeBron James.

Hanging to prevent injury is explicitly mentioned as legal in an exception, but none of the other scenarios are listed in the rulebook. Therefore, I could only apply the injury exception, which is not applicable here.

After the ball went through the net he was no longer an offensive player.

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The next section of Rule 12-IV states that a defensive player may not deliberately hang on the ring, so if LeBron ceased to be an offensive player, then he must have become a defensive player, as his team was no longer in control of the ball, and the other team received the ball at their disposal during the 9 seconds that LeBron James was on the ring (the other team gains control when the ball is at their disposal for the subsequent throw-in). Thus, this loophole doesn't make sense, either. If the NBA can rules lawyer their way out of giving LeBron a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul for hanging on the ring, and use this rules lawyering as justification for their decision not to assess this foul, I can do the same to argue that LeBron should be treated no differently than any other player in the league, and that he should be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul, especially when this technical foul does not lead to an ejection.
/
What is the consequence for calling such an infraction, when all that will happen is 1 free throw and the ball being put back at the point of interruption? It's not like HS, where technical fouls are 2 free throws and possession at the division line (a possible 5-point swing).

The ball bounced out towards midcourt and a timeout was called. The ball was never at anybody's disposal. The ball was dead and a timeout was called.

Now find the rule that states an NBA player can't hang on the rim during a dead ball or during intermission or during pregame.

And if you do make it to the NBA that philosophy of officiating you have right there will be squelched or you'll be back to doing college ball after a year.

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Well, Joe DeRosa went backwards and was successful in both the NBA and at the D1 level. Was there a reason that he went backwards after 22 years?

Unless a player is injured, bleeding, or loses a contact lens/glasses, timeout can only be called by a player or head coach of the team in control. How could timeout have been called if the ball was bouncing around to midcourt in nobody's possession?

My head explodes at the thought that dead ball = not during the game. According to the NFHS and NCAA rulebooks, during the game is any time from the initial jump ball to when the officials leave the visual confines of the playing area, including dead ball periods, when the officials have jurisdiction. Unless the NBA has a radically different definition of during the game, I'm not buying what the L2M said. (Head exploding)

So now you are telling us that after a made basket you have never seen the opponent call an immediate time out? Seriously? You are going to F' up a game with this "I know better" mentality you currently have.

How about you watch the video and see the play before bestowing your wisdom? LeBron dunked the ball, the ball hit his leg and bounced almost to the division line, and while this was happening the Atlanta Hawks called a time-out.

Also, no cares if your buying or not buying the L2M report, other than it shows that you are on course to the "yeah but" guy.

And I'm still waiting for Bucky to produce this conflicting L2M report he was talking about.

A classic "yeah, but" official. Bet you're a joy to clinicians at camps.

Dead Ball ...
 

"After the made dunk shot, James (LAL) remains on the rim after the timeout is called and players have cleared the area under the rim. The ball is dead and he is not taunting opponents or delaying the game."

Because I'm not familiar with the interpretation of NBA rules, I concede that the references to the timeout being called, the players clearing the area under the rim, the not taunting opponents, and the not delaying the game, may all be valid NBA interpretations for not charging a technical foul.

That being said, I'm having problems wrapping my head around the dead ball reference. I agree that the ball is dead. But do not all ring grasps following a successful dunk, illegally prolonged, or otherwise legal, occur during the dead ball period immediately following a successful goal? I understand how the ring grasp can occur during a live ball due to an unsuccessful dunk (ball clangs off of the ring), but how can one not have a dead ball immediately after every successful dunk?

Why did the L2M Report interpretation include that the ball was dead? What's the importance of that statement? Conceding that everything else in the Report my be a valid NBA interpretation, I'm having trouble understanding the logic (not the necessarily the interpretation) of the dead ball statement. I agree that the ball is indeed dead, but why is the dead ball comment pertinent to the no technical foul interpretation?

Live Ball ...
 

Maybe that's my answer (above)? But wouldn't that mean that an NBA player is allowed to hang on them ring for a prolonged period of time after every single successful dunk, since every single successful dunk is immediately followed by a dead ball period? Maybe that's the NBA rule? Maybe NBA players are only charged with technical fouls for hanging on the ring for a prolonged period of time during live ball situations, like an unsuccessful dunk attempt?

Or after the ball becomes live again which it never did in this situation

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Ball Is Dead, And Remains Dead ...
 

Because of the immediate timeout. Good point. So maybe the rule reads that an NBA player can hang on the ring for a prolonged period of time as long as the ball doesn't become live again during the prolonged hang? Maybe had a timeout not been taken, and if the ball had been at the disposal of the other team, thus live ball, it would have been a technical foul? So an NBA player can never be charged with excessively hanging on the ring as long as the ball is dead, and remains dead during the "hang time", and as long as there isn't taunting, or a delay of game?

If that's the rule, then the L2M Report seems logical.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.8...=0&w=203&h=163

Having never read the NBA rulebook in my life, but reading what ilyazhito has been saying about seemingly back-to-back sections of Rule 12-IV. This interpretation should be consistent with those rules. Unless there is another section about a player that is neither offensive nor defensive hanging on the rim, it would be logical that those two sections could only be applied during a live ball.

Put Them Toghether ...
 

Thanks ilyazhito and Raymond.

As a high school basketball official, I really don't care very much about NBA rules, but as a scientist, I do care about logic.

That dead ball comment from the L2M Report has been a bee in my bonnet since the original post of the L2M Report.

Hopefully the bee has moved on to somebody else's bonnet.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.D...=0&w=300&h=300

Basing your opinions on ilyazhito's thoughts will get you stung. ;)

He has yet to post a ruling that applies to this situation. Shoot, he didn't even know the ball never became live or that it bounded out towards the division line.

A Brain Hiccup ...
 

Didn't he post this: NBA Rulebook Rule 12-IV-a ... an offensive player who deliberately hangs on his basket ring, net backboard, or support during the game shall be assessed a non-unsportsmanlike technical foul ... a defensive player may not deliberately hang on the ring.

He may have had a brain hiccup on the made basket/dead ball/timeout situation?

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.9...=0&w=241&h=161

LeBron was neither a defensive player nor an offensive player; the ball was dead, which has been repeated by me ad nauseam. The ball being dead for a time-out has explicitly been stated as ONE of the reasons LeBron was not T'd up. Your buddy has yet to post a ruling concerning hanging on the rim during a time-out, intermission, or pre-game. What is so difficult to understand about that?

After the made dunk shot, James (LAL) remains on the rim after the timeout is called and players have cleared the area under the rim. The ball is dead and he is not taunting or delaying the game

My comment was based on what I assumed were fairly direct quotes from the NBA rulebook. Those were the only parts of his post that I took any credence in since they appeared to be from a source that wasn't ilyazhito ;).

Group Effort ...
 

It was a group effort to bring us all to the same interpretation.

bucky started the thread and provided the video:

Altor provided the Last Two Minute Report.

ilyazhito provided the NBA rule citations.

Raymond provided the very important clarification that there is a dead ball exception to the NBA rule posted by ilyazhito.

Yes, there were some wrong turns along our path, some initiated by me, but we eventually got to where we wanted to go.

It turned out to be an interesting trip.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.b...=0&w=240&h=181

Dovetailing Dead Balls ...
 

Yes it was, but there were two dovetailing dead ball periods, both leading to correct no-calls for possible technical fouls.

The first dead ball and correct no-call for a technical foul had nothing to do with the timeout but has to do with the dead ball immediately after the successful goal.

It was the timeout that prevented the ball from becoming live, continuing the status of the ball being dead, and thus the correct no-call for a technical foul.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.7...=0&w=300&h=300

Billy, please do not fall into the same trap as others. Always try to read all posts/information provided. (unless you are goading). Conflicting/inconsistent L2Ms have already been provided that answer your question. Regarding the same play(and player), the NBA indicates a T should have been called and in another it does not. That is one point of the entire thread. Where else will we ever see someone hang on the rim for 9 seconds (I liked how LBJ even looked around at one point) and T not be called? I am curious as to the what the longest rim hang has ever been during a play in a game. I have seen some good hang times with players tangled up or on the floor under the rim, but never something like 9 seconds.:eek:

This was merely what the NBA provided as a comment. Furthermore, as I have provided, the NBA has also commented where a T should have been called (during same dead ball period after made basket and TO) but it was not. Therein lies one of the inconsistencies. Fun isn't it?

Inconsistencies/Conflicts ...
 

Inconsistencies/Conflicts may be logical, or illogical, but they're still inconsistencies/conflicts, and therein may lie the underlying problem within this thread.

Provided? Where? Did I miss something? I would love to see some of these inconsistent/conflicting L2M Reports regarding the same play and the same player, and how the NBA explains the plays. I don't even need the same player, just the same play will do.

As an official, former coach, and a basketball fan, I don't like King James hanging on the ring for nine seconds, but if the NBA allows it by rule, and isn't just the interpretation of the NBA official on site that night, then there's nothing we can do about it, other than turn off the game on television (instead watch Crickey! It's the Irwins, my new favorite show), not attend the games, and not purchase anything that's advertised during the games.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIF.A...=0&w=300&h=300

Apparently I missed something also. Must be written in invisible ink somewhere, this conflicting L2M.

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And posting completely different plays where players do completely different things (a chin up where legs go parallel to the floor and next to the rim/a player trying to rip the rim out the backboard) that look nothing like what LeBron James did on this play is not a conflicting L2M report. It's just somebody who doesn't know how to admit they're wrong.

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Here is a video from the NBA Video Rulebook about hanging on the rim. Technical Foul, player hangs on the rim | NBA Video Rulebook
The transcript says that "Players are not allowed to pull themselves up on the rim, nor are they allowed to hang on the rim following a dunk attempt, unless they are doing so to avoid injury to themselves or another player. The NBA video rulebook does not mention a dead-ball exception, nor can I find one in the PDF version of the rulebook. Thus, hanging on the rim in the NBA rules is consistent with NFHS and NCAA.

Bucky may also be alluding to this video as the source of inconsistencies. If Bucky can bring up the L2M video where there should be a technical foul, we can have more of a conversation.

He retroactively posted videos of Draymond Green pulling himself and his entire body to rim level with his legs parallel to the ground and one of LeBron violently pulling the rim back and forth.

And you already posted that the NBA rules for hanging on the rim refer specifically to offensive and defensive players. During intermissions/timeouts/pre-games, there are no offensive or defensive players.

Timeout ...
 

So, in the original play, it wasn't the dead ball (immediately after the successful goal) that allowed the ring grasp, but it was the immediate timeout that allowed the ring grasp?

So, why did the L2M Report mention dead ball? From the ilyazhito's video it's obvious that a technical foul for a ring grasping can be charged during a dead ball.

In the original play he is allowed to grasp the rim until all players have cleared out beneath him, just like in high school and college basketball. And by the time all players had cleared out the time out was called.

And what rules citation did your buddy post directly from the NBA rule book that said you cannot hang on the rim during a dead ball? Seems like you are selectively reading to further your point. He posted directly from the rulebook when he tried to make a case that an offensive player and the defensive player can't hang on the rim. Please show me his post citing a rule concerning dead balls and hanging on the rim.

I used to defend your buddy, but he's showing that he's more concerned with being right at all costs. I guarantee you he will get cussed out at least one time by an observer at a college camp with that type of attitude.

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Bee In My Bonnet ...
 

While it doesn't show the important timeout exception, his recent NBA rule video seems to say that a technical foul can be charged for excessively grasping the ring during the dead ball immediately following a successful goal.

We're taking the circuitous route, with a lot of mistakes, and dead ends, and it hasn't been an easy path, but we're getting closer to the truth.

He didn't post a video, bucky did. And I'll repeat for the umpteenth time, those videos showed a complete chin up with legs near the rim and parallel to the ground and LeBron violently shaking the rim multiple times. Are you not capable of seeing the difference between those 2 plays and LeBron simply hanging from the rim?

NBA Video Rulebook ...
 

ilyazhito posted the video and just as importantly, the transcript:

From what I learned about NBA ring grasping from this thread, it is my belief that the following would have been more logical and clear L2M Report:

"After the made dunk shot, James (LAL) remains on the rim after the timeout is called. He is not taunting opponents, nor is he delaying the game."

The original references to players clearing the area under the rim and the ball being dead are irrelevant, superfluous, extraneous, not needed, and muck up the rationale for the correct no call, the simple rationale being it was during a timeout, and that there was no taunting, or delay of game. The ball being dead had nothing to do with the correct no call if Raymond is correct in that NBA players are allowed to grasp the ring during pregame, timeouts, intermissions, and post game.

on the rim

"This is an example of a Technical Foul for hanging on the rim. Players are not allowed to pull themselves up on the rim, nor are they allowed to hang on the rim after a dunk attempt, unless they are doing so to avoid injury to themselves or another player. The offensive player on this play pulls himself up on the rim and kicks his legs into the air following his successful dunk. This type of reaction is an immediate technical foul for hanging on the rim."


They are allowed to hang on the rim until all the players beneath them clear. That was addressed in the L2M report on this particular play.

NBA is not shy about telling us when an official gets plays wrong. If the officials in this game got that played wrong the NBA would have said so. And if your buddy thinks that he's going to go into an NBA game and call a Tech on this play while his 30-year veteran crew chief doesn't, he is truly not too bright when it comes to the world of officiating.

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Three Reasons ...
 

LeBron James was still hanging on the long after the players below him cleared. So why was he allowed to do so:

1) Timeout was immediately called.
2) He didn't taunt anyone.
3) He didn't delay the game.

"Clearing players" had a little to do with this correct no call situation, there were no players directly under James after the dunk, the closest one was there for only a second.

The "dead ball" had absolutely nothing to do with this correct no call situation and the mention of such mucked up the rationale and was irrelevant, superfluous, extraneous, and not needed in the L2M Report.

Once again here's BillyMac's L2M Report: "After the made dunk shot, James (LAL) remains on the rim after the timeout is called. He is not taunting opponents, nor is he delaying the game."

(if Raymond is correct in that NBA players are allowed to grasp the ring during pregame, timeouts, intermissions, and post game.)

Based on your extensive knowledge of NBA rules and the spirit and intent thereof? You have no idea if the ball being dead has anything to do with the ruling, because it is not explicitly stated in the rule book. It is addressed, however, in an official NBA communication concerning said play.

The L2M report for this particular game lists 4 incorrect decisions by the officials in a 42 second span. I guess this play's ruling is some nefarious plot or conspiracy by the NBA to protect the King. Geez.

Dead Ball Immediately After A Successful Goal ...
 

We've seen videos in this thread of players being called for this infraction during the dead ball period immediately after a successful goal. No apparent taunting. No apparent delay of game. That leads me to believe that excessive grasping is not allowed during dead balls.

Then, of course, we have this statement from the NBA: "Players are not allowed to pull themselves up on the rim, nor are they allowed to hang on the rim following a dunk attempt, unless they are doing so to avoid injury to themselves or another player".

It does list "unless" exceptions, but dead ball is not listed as an "unless" exception.

Absent taunting, or delay of game, I still believe that this correct no call was mainly due to the immediacy of the timeout.

Had there been no immediate timeout called, I believe that James could have been called for an excessive grasp of the ring, as we've seen by other players in other videos with no taunting, or no delay of game.

I do not have extensive knowledge of NBA rules, but I know how to read and how to logically understand factual information that is presented to me.

The Plot Thickens ...
 

Though I facetiously posted about this, I actually believe that the no call was correct, a small part of the rationale was illogical and unclear, but the no call was correct, NBA players are probably allowed to grasp the ring during pregame, timeouts, intermissions, and post game.

That might make sense if the NBA is an entertainment league (travels are frequently overlooked, NBA officials use mechanics that are not listed in the signal chart, and that look lazy, IMO), but NBA officials are still very accurate when it comes to play calling. I'd put an NBA crew on a D1 men's college game, and a top D1 crew on a G-League or NBA preseason game, just to see how they perform, though :-P.