Vid request: Duke vs Army - shooter loses control and touches again
 

We have had discussions/debates about a shooter that loses control of the ball and is the first to touch again. At about 1:40 remaining in the Duke/Army game, Duke player (Jones I think) rises to shoot, loses control, he lands, and then jumps and touches the ball again in a tip. Travel? No call? Fumble? Illegal Dribble? I do not recall what the consensus ruling was on the forum.

NCAAM issued a ruling that there is no violation on this play.
NFHS has an old interp from about 2000 that this is a traveling violation.

I cannot find that play. Is that the second half?

Peace

Can Always Pick Up A Fumble, Guess Not ???
 

Goes against the rules that they have in place for a description of a fumble. Who is paying attention to this ruling now? Is it still in the book? If not, I am not calling traveling for a fumble.

Peace

Dueling Interpretations ...
 

This above is not the same as this below:

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor. No fumble here, just a purposeful, deliberate, intentional drop, that becomes illegal when the player touches the ball again after it hits the floor.

I agree with JRutledge. Has the NFHS confused the two situations above?

Does the NFHS believe that officials can't tell the difference between a fumble and purposeful, deliberate, intentional drop?

But there's the NFHS 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1 Situation #1 interpretation in black and white, for all to clearly see, until the NFHS changes the rule, or the interpretation, which, as far as I know, it hasn't.

Of course the NFHS never gets confused, and never makes a mistake. Never. Ever.

Who are we to question the Great and Powerful NFHS?

Wait, who did Toto find hiding behind the curtain?

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.p...=0&w=177&h=172

Bang Bang (My Baby Shot Me Down) (Cher, 1966) ...
 

For the good of the cause, here are situations similar to what's being discussed in this thread:

The shooter can retrieve his or her own airball, if the official considers it to be a shot attempt. The release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked, is unable to release the ball, and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball.

If, in a similar situation, the defender simply touches the ball, the airborne shooter maintains control of the ball, chooses not to release the ball, and returns to the floor holding the ball, it’s a traveling violation.

If, in a similar situation, the shooter loses control of the ball because of the block, then this is simply a blocked shot, the release ends team control. It is not a violation for that player to start another dribble at that point.

When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and touches the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor.

These are often bang bang plays that need to be ruled correctly. Be ready. They do happen.

Note: I'm not adding the NFHS 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1 Situation #1 to my list until the NFHS comes down from Mount Sinai with it engraved on a stone tablet.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.e...=0&w=310&h=175

Sorry, I believe it was in the first half with about 1:40 remaining.

Without the video, I am envisioning the ball going upwards perhaps towards the rim/backboard since the player then jumped up to try to tip it in. If so, the player simply botched a try for goal and the subsequent touching is perfectly legal.

This came up at our association meeting last night and the instructor posed the question of when this becomes a held ball. He contended that it was when the upward momentum of the shooter has been stopped by the opponents hand on the ball. What is the consensus here? Does the defender have to have his hand on the ball until the shooter returns to the floor? Until his upward momentum stops?

I think "until returns to the floor" used to be an NCAAM rule -- don't know if ti still is.

For NFHS and NCAAW, the "upward momentum" seems like a good guideline -- basically, any contact that affects the shooter AND doesn't cause the ball to come immediately loose is, form a practical standpoint, a held ball.

Simply look at definition for held ball. It tells you and no, there neither nothing in there about upward momentum nor returning to the floor.

No, this was about a 16 foot jump shot.

You Can Look It Up ...
 

No there isn't, but one needs to establish some criteria for what is enough to prevent a player from releasing the ball on the try vs. a touch of the ball that the shooter still has the ability to release.

Big Bucks ...
 

Paintguru: I see your point, but as is often stated here on the Forum, sometimes we just have to ref the game, that's why we get the big bucks.

Guess I am missing something then. Use the criteria of the ball in relation to the hand(s) (as far as article 2). I just basically use that, not any other part of the body, momentum, off the floor, etc. NBD.

Below is link to game. Poor quality. Fast forward to the 31:00 mark. Play occurs at about 1:40 in the first half.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LeSdhRTcJc

You better use that one, since it is required by the rule.

Indeed it will. So, there could never be a held ball as a result of a prevented shot from a shooter on the floor. Wonder why they put that in there, especially when the game originated with set shots. Must be historical aspect...Mr. DeNucci? (inner BillyMac coming out of me, sorry)

Speculating:

If the shooter hasn't left the floor, then the defense touching doesn't really cause a problem -- it's still "play on"

If the shooter is off the floor, and the defense's touching prevents a release, the the "result of the play" would be traveling -- and that's not really fair to the offense. So, go with the held ball.

Yes, makes sense. I can still envision, and have seen, someone try to make a pass while on the floor and the resulting defender hand on the ball resulted in a travel by the offense. Rare of course and not one makes a stink on that type of play. I have also seen, mostly in lower level girls play, someone, while on the floor, try to shoot, and the defender has her hand on the ball. Then the offensive player "tries" to jump, and does barely, all while the defender has her hand on the ball.

Rare instances and again, not a big deal. Your angle makes good sense.