Pre-tip off technical foul and non-starter shoots the free throw
 

If there is a pre-game technical foul, such as an administrative T or for dunking during warm-ups, the shooting team has the option for a substitute, A-6, to shoot the foul shots. Does this mean, as in 3-2-2a, that A-6 has been allowed to become a starter and that he/she must start the game? Or can A-6 shoot the fouls shots and return to the bench, allowing the regular starters to start the game?

Substitutes who become players are never required to "play a tick."

Confucius Says ...
 

Must sit a tick, don’t have to play a tick.

In my opinion, the substituted starter (let's call him A-5) has to sit a tick. A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not reenter (with rare exception) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. The clock didn't start on the free throw for the technical foul.

Since a player doesn't have to play a tick, A-7 can come off the bench to replace A-6, if the coach desires. "Allowing the regular starters to start the game" no longer applies because the game had already started when the ball became live for the free throw for the technical foul.

Note: The "with rare exception" above applies to situations where a team, due to disqualification, or injury, would be forced to play with fewer than five players.

I disagree. A5 hasn't been substituted for...the game hasn't started yet. The situation that we're discussing is the changing of a designated starter. Team A may change everyone 100 times before the 10-minute mark or even after at the cost of a T. None of those count. Until the game actually starts, the changes are not substitutions.

Once the FTs have been taken, there is a substitution opportunity and and A5 may come into the game.

The game doesn’t start with the free throws when there is a pregame technical foul?

Let's Get Ready To Rumble ...
 

Since the game hasn't started I guess that any points scored from the technical foul free throws don't count. Just like any points scored during the warmup layup lines don't count.

Seriously, the game started when the ball became live, when it's at the disposal of the free thrower for the first free throw for the technical foul.

Designated starter A-5 has to sit a tick.

Also, while I wouldn't grant a request for timeout before the ball became live when the tossed ball leaves the official’s hand during a "normal" jump ball "start" (game, or overtime), I would grant a request for a timeout in rfp's situation after the ball became live when it's at the disposal of the free thrower for the free throws for the technical foul (depending on who requests it, and when it's requested).

Yes, it does. How does that relate to my response?

At the time A5 is changed to A6, the game hasn't started yet. Then, the FTs happen. That starts the game, not the replacement of the designated starter. A5 can be substituted into the game after the FTs since A5 is not reentering...A5 was never in.

First Live Ball ???
 

Why hasn't the game "started", and if it hasn't "started", when does it actually "start".

6-2-1: The game and each extra period begins when the ball becomes live as specified in 6-1-2 for a jump ball, throw-in or free throw.

3-3-4: A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game shall not re-enter before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his/her replacement.

Once the game starts, the designated starter rule longer applies.

Replaced ...
 

Great point, but he was legally replaced as a designated starter.

First Free Throw ...
 

Isn't there a substitution opportunity after the first free throw has been taken?

After A-6 takes his first free throw attempt, can't A-8 replace A-6 and attempt the second free throw? And then, can't A-9 replace A-8 before the throwin?

Legal Substitution/Replacement ...
 

Another good point by Camron Rust. But this is a third situation. It's not before the ten minute mark, it's after. It's not at the expense of a technical foul, it's a legal substitution/replacement after the ten minute mark.

It is after the 10 minute mark and the changing of a designated starter. Only the T is excepted. Otherwise, it is just like any other change of a designated starter.

If A6 had been the designated starter up to 12:37 on the pregame clock and it was changed to A5 at that time, would not you allow A6 to enter the game to shoot the FTs for the T?

Wow, you guys are totaling missing Camron's point. There is no substitution prior to the free throw b/c the game has not started yet. It starts when A6 gets the ball at her/his disposal for the free throw. Was A1 substituted for after the ball was put at A6's disposal?

Ten Minute Mark ...
 

Another great point from Camron Rust. I would allow A6 to enter.

In the original situation, A6 replaced A5, I assume after the ten minute mark, or we wouldn't be discussing this. Let's keep our discussion exclusively after the ten minute mark.

A6 replaced A5. A5 by must sit a tick.

That's my wavering story and I'm only sticking to it long enough for somebody to push me over the "sit a tick" cliff.

Moving Toward The White Light ...
 

I wasn't seeing it at the beginning, but I'm now starting to see the light, but I'm not yet 100% convinced.

But what changes about the substitution rule at the 10 minute mark? Nothing. If you say A5 must sit, then A5 must sit if the change was done before the 10 minute mark.

The substitution limitation doesn't begin until the player is actually in the game (the game has started). Why? It only applies to "players". Before the game starts, every one is bench personnel.

Are designated starters considered players or bench personal during warm-ups? Does that status change after the 10 minute mark?

If A6 commits a technical foul after the 10 minutes, after he/she has been designated as the free throw shooter, would the HC receive an indirect Technical?

Now, despite my logical attempt to address this situation, the Case Book does have something directly on point that refutes my stance:


8.3 SITUATION:

A technical foul is issued prior to the start of the game and the game begins with free throws. Non-starter, A6, is brought in to the game to attempt the free throws and replaces starter A5.

RULING: Legal substitute. The ball becomes live to start the game when placed at A6's disposal. A6 and A5 are subject to proper substitution rules. A5 may not re-enter until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been properly started. (3-2-2a, 3-3-4)

Same interpretation in NCAA-Men's

A.R. 48. A technical foul is assessed to Team B before the start of the game. The coach from Team A wants to replace designated starter A5 with A6 so A6 can shoot the free throws. Is this permissible?

RULING: Yes. A6 is permitted to replace designated starter A5 to shoot the free throws for the technical foul. When the ball is placed at the disposal of A6 for the free throw, the game has begun and thereafter, all substitution rules apply. Any team member is eligible to become a substitute with the exception of A5, who shall not be permitted to re-enter until the game clock has been properly started after his replacement.

(Rule 3-6.1.j, 3-6.1.k, 5-7.1, 7-4.7 and Rule 10-3 through 4 Penalty)

Diligent Research ...
 

Raymond: Thanks for your diligent research.

I admit, I was starting to waver, but a little voice in the back of my mind told me otherwise. I wish the little voice in the back of my head told me to look in the casebook instead of in the rulebook.

Lucky for us, although I was tempted to, I never moved toward the white light.

Nice debate guys.

Good find. As illogical as it is since A5 isn't a player yet and hasn't been removed from a game that hasn't started yet, we have a case.

Footloose And Fancy-Free
 

Camron Rust: You made several pertinent, relevant, and factual citations to support your side of the issue. You almost had me convinced. The problem was that you seem to have forgotten that the NFHS often plays footloose and fancy-free with terms, and definitions of said terms. Sometimes a player is specifically one for the five team members in the game, and sometimes it's a generic term for everybody on the team. Reenter may specifically mean to have already entered (played in the game) the game and to enter again, and sometimes it means a more generic entering after being replaced/substituted.

Stupid NFHS.

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.E...=0&w=216&h=163

I know that I am late arriving to the party, but....

The NFHS Situation (which if my memory serves me correctly is now in the NFHS Casebook) and the NCAA Men's A.R. are somewhere between 10 and 12 year old. But I am going back to the early 1980s.

1) The Rule stating when and how the game starts (NFHS Boys'/Girls' and NCAA Men's) has been the same for well over 55 years (the NCAA Women's joined the party in the mid-1980s).

2) The Rule stating that a Substitute can enter the game to attempt TF FTs has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's Rules for well over 55 years.

3) The Rule stating for when and under what circumstances a Starter can be changed have been the same for NFHS and NCAA Men's for well over 55 years.

4) When a TF occurs during the Dead Ball Period before the Jump Ball to start the game two different Rules (see (2) and (3) above) come into play and they are opposed to each other.

In the late December 1981, (I know, how do I remember that month and year? Without going into the details, I just remember.) I had a telephone conversation with Dick Schindler, the then NFHS Basketball Rules Editor, regarding a rules interpretation for a different play which I no longer remember, when our conversation switched to the play we are now discussing.

Dick and I were in agreement, even then, that the Rule allowing the Team to have a Substitute(s) attempt the TF FTs over ruled the Rule regarding when and how Starters could be replaced. Dick stated that, from a logic stand point, the game started the moment the TF occurred.

This now brings us to the question: Can A5 return to the game after the TF FTs have been attempted but before that Game Clock starts? ANSWER: No. The game started at the earliest when the TF occurred and at the latest when the Ball was placed at the Disposal of the FT Shooter for the first FTA.

MTD, Sr.

I was just coming to post the case play. Better late than never?

Ancient Days © 2018 Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. ...
 

Every party has a pooper that's why we invited you, party pooper! Party Pooper!

Can you even remember what you had for breakfast this morning?

This situation has been in the NFHS Simplified & Illustrated for over a decade. It was also recently added to the NFHS Case Book.
A6 is allowed to sub in for A5, but A5 must now sit a tick before returning. A7 is allowed to come in for A6 prior to the clock starting.

If you search old threads on this forum you will find this ruling and my argument that the NFHS ruling is not correct. About ten years ago I contended that A5 should not have any restriction on his entry as this team member was no longer a starter. Of course, the NFHS has stated differently.