Player and Referee Brawl
 

Not sure when this kind of stuff will end, pretty sickening:

AAU team, referees involved in on-court brawl at Gatorade Associations tournament finals

The other coach has said the team was fighting amongst itself and completely started the physical confrontation with the officials.

A couple of interesting omments on Deadspin:

"Officiating AAU basketball is not a fun experience. I refuse to work any more tournaments. They are totally money-making operations first. Even last year’s incidents with Lamar Ball’s team are not unusual.

In New England, there are only one or two organizations running most of the tournaments. No matter how much experience the official has, they still want you to work 3-4 games unpaid so they can “evaluate” you to see if you can handle that level. And their rates are barely half what we can get for travel ball and high school level games. Sadly, there are officials struggling for work who will do those games, sometimes 8-9 a day, because they need the money, so the rates will stay low because there will always be someone willing to take it."

Since the tournaments are all about money, they need to get in as many games as possible on the schedule. They tell officials not to call too many fouls, so the games stay on time. This leads to games getting very physical and out of hand. The directors will also overrule officials when it comes to technical fouls and ejections, so they can keep the teams happy and coming back ($$$$)."

"You are 1000% correct. I’d refereed off and on for 40+ years. At one point was asked to start calling NCAA-III games (4 days before 1st game destroyed my R hip). Then this new organization came in, very political, and under the premise of better organization, more professional and consistent, etc. The same thing you discussed: work tournament games FREE for two days, 40 miles from home to be “evaluated” by the new guys. Overturned my T on a coach who ran onto a floor screaming at me. The team happened to be part of an organization sponsored by an NBA player who lived in the area. The pay wasn’t what it was under the old system. I’m done and don’t miss it."

Who would put up with stuff like this? As a profession/avocation why do we tolrate such shitty pay and treatment?

Seems that this happens often in Georgia.
Isn't this about the third story to be posted of a brawl out of that state?

That is absolutely stupid. I understand that these players want to make the NBA, but seeing them (and their team) behave like that would want to make me think twice about recommending one of them, if I was in a position to do so. If I was officiating there, I don't know if I would come back.

I know you know all this, but I'm going to say it anyway for others who might not know.

There will ALWAYS be people in our avocation who will sell their souls to the devil. Either because they really want the money or they're trying to win favor with an assigner. The money, the "prestige" of the assignments, etc. is more important to them than sticking up for themselves, their fellow officials, and the avocation. Many of the assigners for this type of ball just want the money and everything else is secondary; they don't want you to "rock the boat" by making calls that might not be popular. If you do, you'll be complained about and not used anymore. Tournament directors are in it for the money, too; if "coaches" don't like the way the games are officiated, they'll go to another tournament next year and the TD won't get their entry fee. So, for many (not all) of these events, the officials who take the games are at the mercy of what the assigner wants, who is at the mercy of what the TD wants, who is at the mercy of what the coaches want–and that is, to be able to behave however they choose because "we paid to be here."

Since there are plenty of officials for whom the money is of primary importance, tournament directors and assigners have no reason to negotiate for higher pay and better working conditions. It truly is sad, but all I can control is what I do. And I simply don't work this crap anymore. If I was a younger official trying to get experience or a broke college student trying to make money, my mentality might be different. Thankfully that's not the case.

And the behavior isn't limited to the levels where the players have D1 potential (let alone NBA). I was bewildered watching the behavior when my son played AAU tournaments. (This is his last year, and he's missing the rest of the summer with a hand injury--I sure as heck won't miss it.)

Those officials, though.....HO LEE SH&*! What were they freaking doing out there??? Chest bumping....throwing dukes....chasing and assaulting juveniles.

Idiots.

Embarrassing.

I call it self-defense.

Shrug.

^

Why is it okay for everyone to defend themselves except the people most susceptible to being harmed (i.e. us)?

"Because we're supposed to be the calming presence" yada yada yada. If someone takes a swing at me you think I'm supposed to stand there and take it?

Sorry, then pay me more. Put a comma in the check and I might think of walking away. Until then for anything much less than half of what I make during a game of the same caliber, I am not taking an ass whoopin for anyone. And it would take a lot for me not to help out on some level if a partner is getting beat on.

Peace

If a player attacks me, I'm defending myself and getting the heck out of there. Watch your back and run away if need be
Mob mentality and players/people lose control and do things they normally would not.

Martin is one of the coaches of the white team. The team in black are doing the smart thing and getting the heck out of there. I hope the police interview the fans and security to find out what happened.
Don't know if this is true from the article.
Benjamin said Martin told the referee that he would "whip your ass" at the start of the game, which was edgy from the beginning.

Benjamin said he could sense the opposing team's frustration as it was losing late in the game, so he cautioned his squad to stay alert for any cheap shots. Some R.A.W. Athletics players even argued with Martin, Benjamin said.

Anywhere in which that is not an immediate ejection from the facility with a significant suspension is not somewhere a rational person would want to referee.

I gave up worrying about how bad the refs were at those tournaments and just laughed about it--I knew they already exhibited an inability to make good decisions by being there at all.

As much as stuff like this makes me shake my head in disgust I can't help but come to the conclusion of "oh well, you get out of something what you put into it."

If punks want to be punks then so be it. I'm going to stay away, though.

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This case will die quietly. The incident happened in Georgia and the team is from Chicago. I doubt there will be extradition for a bunch of juveniles for what will amount to basic assault charges.

Exactly.

Once a confrontation turns from yelling at me to taking a swing at me or my partner, all bets are off. Scream at me all you want and I can eject you and forfeit the game if necessary. Throw a haymaker at me and I have every right to self-defense.

Yep. Nothing is going to come of this.

If this was a high school game it would be a completely different animal.

I'm all for defending yourself.

Watch the video again. What does the official do after being knocked to the ground? He gathers himself, stands up and instead of heading directly to a lockerroom or somewhere safe off the court, gets right up in a kid's face and chest bumps him. A KID.

Walk or jog away, man. Man up, drop the ego and get yourself immediately out of the situation.

The video will back you up 100. Instead, the video shows the official inviting continued violence.

+100

I don't blame the official at all. All those "kids" were bigger than him and assaulted him.


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Actually, I do not give a damn what he did afterward. If you are assaulted people will lose their minds even for a moment. I have no issues with the situation because he did not appear to start it. And I am sorry have you been to basketball games in these environments? You have a lot of big players that in some cases look much older than kids. Also, this official does not look very old either. He might be a young guy where what he does in his 20s, he is not doing in his 50s.

To each his own. If you want to go away and hope no one fights you, be my guest. I am not taking an ass whoopin for anybody.

Honestly, who cares in the end? I am not working these games anymore in these kinds of settings for these kinds of reasons. And this official for all we know is no more than a guy with a striped shirt, what they pay for BTW.

Peace

Many times.

My point exactly. Nobody is going to whip my ass because my ass won't be anywhere near someone(s) that wants to try.

If you say so. I guess you are going to run out of the building? Not always practical.

Peace

I am with you and am so tired of people acting like it's so outrageous for us to get emotional every once in awhile when these high schoolers and "coaches" (I use that term lightly for this kind of basketball) cross the line.

It makes me laugh how these travel ball teams and tournament directors want better officiating yet don't want to pay up and only use 2-person crews. And then when good varsity or college officials come work the games, they get upset when they can't get away with what usual officials for these tournaments let them get away with.

I've been to a few camps where travel/AAU was the tournament being used and coaches had to be restrained or removed by police several times with 3 officials on the floor and college or high school officials working. So even when they get "better officials" they still act a fool. So it does not matter what we do or what they get, the environment makes this OK. Again the 3rd incident in Georgia that got out of hand.

Peace

I'm not sure anyone here feels it's outrageous, however; give me an example when getting emotional as an official has resolved a situation or has made it better? To me it is not different in getting into a debate with a coach thinking you are going to make him/her see things your way in the heat of the moment. It just doesn't happen or work that way..... We have to rise above and typically disengage, no matter how off-base a coach is. We have tools given to us to use for these situations. Those tools should handle 99% of the situations we see.

I just saw this past Sunday an older/experienced official get into a back-and-forth with a coach, started getting emotional about it, and ended up whacking the coach, 100% because he got emotional. In this particular situation, he easily could have just told the coach what he had and walked away, but instead made it about who could puff their chest out further and how he was right and the coach was wrong. It was just flat out ugly and no one in the gym was very impressed with either of them.

There is normally more than enough, if not too much, emotion already involved in youth sports. As sporting officials, I think it behooves us to not add to that element of the game, rather an opposite, steady, controlled influence whenever possible. I believe the official in this OP could have been that opposite and much needed force. 80% of the video wouldn't exist if he had.....

Quite frankly, I think the occasional emotional reaction from an official tends to be a good thing to put coaches and players in place. Offseason game like this, all bets are off. You wanna start swinging? Don't be surprised when someone swings back. With tournaments like these where there is literally no oversight of the courts, drastic measures are necessary.

Also let's remember that this kind of thing would never happen in a real game with administrators, security, and real coaches. In the couple times it has happened (officials getting physically assaulted), appropriate authorities acted immediately and the offenders were dismissed from their respective programs.

Sometimes you have little no choice. I have a story to tell that illustrates this fact.

I had a "travel" game about 2 years ago of a big shoe company tournament.

I was in a convention center that had probably a little over 60 courts on the same floor and building. So it was impossible to hear clearly these portable scoreboards that are often used in these situations. Whistles and noise everywhere.

Well, I was on a court in a 2 person game where I was the lead and opposite table. There were seconds in the game and in front of me was a putback of a rebound, then shot to win the game. The putback went in the basket and my partner who was right next to the table ruled the shot good. I thought nothing of it but as I was walking off the court, I had a bunch of players and coaches directly in my face. Now I did not make the ruling at all, but I had to get these people out of my face. So I asked my partner, "What did you rule?" He said, "I counted the basket." I said "OK, game over and proceeded to walk off the court but was followed by a coach or two and a parent who was a blonde haired woman who told me aggressively, "You have to change this call!" I said basically that she needed to get out of my face and walked away. As I walked away, she grabbed my arm rather aggressively. I did not know at the time who grabbed my arm, but I turned around and this woman was there holding my arm. I aggressively pulled my arm away and I immediately said to this woman in the most profane way, "You need to get out of my.........face and don't you ever put your........hands on me in life!!!" She immediately backed off but continued to try to make me change a call that I did not make in the first place. She was still in my space, I had no idea what was going to happen or who was a threat. Then the team director or head guy of the team came to me also trying to get me to change the call and told me how much money he spent. I had to basically get loud and even aggressive to get these people out of my space. It ended up working where they were a little bit on their heals. I am not an opposing figure physically, but I am about 6 feet tall and was taller than a couple of the people that were around me. I used that to my advantage as well as my tone which caused a scene on purpose.

The assignor of this tournament is a good friend of mine and a college and state final official. He came to me later to ask me about what happened as there were witnesses and the team complained to the tournament people and he came to address the situation. Well the woman admitted to grabbing me and he basically dismissed her immediately and told them in so many words they do not have a right to behave that way, but I am convinced if I just "walked away" when there was really nowhere to go, the incident would have gotten worse IMO. I would not have worked this tournament without the person that I know assigning the games. And I have done it since that runs at the same time in July.

I do not buy this, "We have to be nice at all times" BS. I think we have to read the sitaution and act accordingly. Because if things like this happened during a real game, we have not only appropriate remedies there are procedures to avoid such things all together. In summer games we might not even have a locker room or a safe place to go. And the participants also know they can do things and they will play or participate in the later games. We are not in the most authoritative position.

Peace

Some of it, sure. But be honest: not ALL of that was self defense.

So much for security being present at the tournament. Where were they?

That team and those players are bad news and should not be allowed at ANY tournament.

First things first: do not let anything SAID set you off. Words are not legitimate provocation for violence in any respect. It certainly isn't sufficient for us. You can always walk away from words; no exceptions. You walk toward security and get them to handle it, but you keep walking.

Second, once someone puts hands on you, you have the absolute right to get free. I would strongly suggest that at that point, you retreat. If that is impossible, then you defend yourself in a manner sufficient to the threat. If a 14 year old 5'4" girl grabs you and won't let go, you don't get to cold cock her when you get the chance. You keep her from continuing to assault you, even to the point of throwing her down IF NECESSARY, but you don't get a chance to exact revenge (if you will) on her for being that stupid. With a 6'3" muscular young man, things are much different. He poses a legitimate threat to your physical safety. I'm putting a technique on him that will physically STOP him (stop is the key word) and quite possibly will seriously injure him. But my main focus is on stopping him.

Obviously, any game is over (suspended) when there is violence against an official that isn't very isolated (i.e. ONE player goes totally berzerk and other players hold him back). You call the police and file a report. DO NOT let anyone talk you out of calling the police because you might very well be arrested later on a bogus charge if THEY call the police and lie.

Always be proactive in these situations. And for all that is good, STOP working AAU or any of these other crap summer league/tournament games. Then and only then will they start giving us the respect we deserve.

Have you never worked an offseason tournament? Not unusual at all for these types of events to lack security. That would require the organizers taking more money out of their pockets.

One of the many reasons not to work this stuff.

It appears the refs were attacked first but they did very little to deescalate the situation. The one guy broke free and charged somebody. I'm not buying the self-defense argument for at least part of this. Not to mention, strategically, there are more of them than there are of you so unless you're Bruce Lee, you are probably going to get the worst of it. Noble to defend you comrades, but once the group of you have the chance, time to get out of there and not decide to mix it up.

I think sometimes the coaches used to weak officials they can bully have a hard time when they get the refs who actually know what they are doing. They are used to getting away with things and used to their players getting away with things. When those things get called, the knuckleheads have trouble adjusting.

Officials should immediately seek to put as much space between themselves and any physical assailant(s) as quickly as possible. Doing anything to put gas on the fire (getting up in the face of the attacker) is a huge mistake. Tough guy egos should have been checked at the door. That video is a perfect case study for how *not* to handle yourself as an official in the midst of a brawl.

-100

this assumes a lot and poses a wonderful hypothetical. 1 kid took him down and 3-4 kids were hovering over. Ya just get up, dust yourself off and walk off the court like nothing happened. That's funny if you ask me.

I would hope any official in such a scenario is not left with you as a partner....

Spoken like somebody who has never been in a physically threatening situation.

Is it?

No, you count on your partner(s), coaches, and other sane and decent adults 'in the room' to assist you in disengaging from the chaos. Then you get video of the situation, if possible, get police to the scene, file a report, and deal with it legally. That would be realistic. The picture you painted with sarcasm and satire is not.

I would also lay odds that my 'picture' would be suggested and supported by a lot of law enforcement individuals, and likely most basketball assignors.

1 kid pushed him down. The 3-4 other kids could have easily made it a dog pile, but didn't. The official got up and engaged/charged at the player (in legal terms likely a MINOR). The official COULD have gone the opposite direction preventing the majority of the chaos that ensued.

But to some I guess that means he would have been 'less of a man'....:confused:

Agree. You're right on every point.

Since when are these free-for-all tournaments known for having "sane and decent adults" around?

This was not a high school game with administrators and cops standing guard.

Even more reason to immediately distance/remove oneself from the fray.

So what do you do when you are followed to the parking lot? Yes that happened to me when walking away.

Again we can play the holier-than-thou card all day, but not every situation is as easy as you are trying to make it.

And even if we do not agree with every action, I understand why it happened.

Peace

Easy?

Nothing we as officials do in preparation or on the court, relatively speaking, is considered "easy".

My comments are about doing what is right. And, most of the time, as life has taught us over and over, the right thing to do is rarely ever easy.

What do I do? I keep walking at a fast pace, get into my car and drive away.

What do you recommend?

Again, we are not obligated to some professional stance when there is no professional organization involved. This is a glorified playground game. It has little to do with ego. And this is also not a very structured environment. Yes, it has some uniforms, but so does intermural ball at the YMCA. I have known officials that were police officer being threatened where they had to get their gun to stop any threat at the time. And they left the situation or tried to and still had a threat. It is more than ego. It is you use the tools you have at the time.

And the video is not perfect for anything other than a summer league situation. Because during the season there are likely police officers right off the court. I had a fight between teams one time and police, security (that were police) all got involved. I remember a football game in Chicago where they have security at every game and entered the field when players were getting involved with each other. I do not know what this shows other than there was no security and no non-combatants getting involved. IF you are alone you might do many things to get that threat off of you.

Peace

You can do whatever you wish. I am just saying that you can run but might not have a place to run to as easily as you claim you do. You might not have a locker room or a secure room if this is not a very organized situation. If you have noticed, I never told you to do whatever you wish, just pointing out that your solution in many venues is short-sighted. Because if stuff goes down and you are cornered, you might do all kinds of things or have to. Again, easy to judge sitting on a computer. ;)

Peace

There is a point after the first attack that the situation could have ended without further incident.

That being said, I believe some here are holding these basketball officials to a higher standard than they hold any other people, professions or people in positions of authority. We are still human; the stripes we wear aren't some magic cape that make us impervious to human emotions and reactions.

Quite frankly, I just think it's laughable the way some of us claim to be holier-than-thou while sitting behind a computer screen. Who's to say none of us would have reacted the same way?

And again, I just don't really think the normal rules that we think of in our avocation have to apply when it comes to street ball like this. If an official wants to stand up for himself in a crapshoot tournament, good for him. And if a punk player or coach wants to take a swing, I applaud you for defending yourself even if it was a little over the top.

Well, within 5-10 seconds I see 5 grown men in street clothes making there presence known on the court and none of them appeared to want to add to the chaos. So I would say in this specific case he would have had plenty of help had he chose to try to escape the situation.

It was, and always will be, absolutely wrong for a player to be physically violent with an official. At the same time, if an official chooses to put themselves in a YOUTH sporting event, whether it is sanctioned or not, whether there is security or not, whether there is gym administration or not, more times than not the correct thing to do is disengage, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. If the OP video doesn't support that philosophy than I don't know what does.

It's not holier-than-thou, it's what rational, mature ADULTS should try to do, at all costs, when working in an environment with MINORS. If you think you would get a different opinion from law enforcement professionals, then I think that's pretty laughable......

Again, I think we're holding these officials to a higher standard than we hold other people who are in positions of authority during situations like this.

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I don't know what kind of people you're normally around but I wouldn't expect most people I'm normally around in my day-to-day life to respond like that, ever. That sort of response is simply not mature in any way.

Positions of authority in the general sense, or positions of authority over minors/youth? BIG difference, for many different reasons.

I can think of no situation where I would be ok with a school principal or teacher doing what that official did, say if a student initiated violence with a push or a punch. Neither would this be acceptable for a youth coach in any sport, who's first instinct and reaction was to 'fight back' or charge a minor who he is coaching. So frankly, I cannot think of any position of authority of minors where I would think it would be reasonable to have the initial or first instinct to fight back or defend myself physically. Only the very last resort when all other options fail.....

There were no principals or school administrators or teachers involved. That is is kind of the point. If this was a Men's league, this is the same possible situation. And I have seen many minors try to fight teacher or other school personnel.

Peace

I've seen plenty of videos of minors being manhandled, punched, or forcefully put to the ground by adults in scholastic environments. In those situations I've never heard that the children should be treated differently than adults who become violent or aggressive. The response is always "if the student would have complied, he wouldn't have been...."

IUgrad92 is spot on. Do the teachers or other school personnel disengage the student or charge back at them?

Self-defense, in my mind, is an action needed to eliminate an immediate danger to one self. If a person (kid or adult) is over me and I'm in immediate danger, I will do whatever I need to do to get them off of me and get myself out of harms way. After that point, it is my job to remove myself and my teammates from the situation as fast as possible. If my partner is still engaged, of course I go to help. However, it also means that once we're clear of immediate danger, we run to our cars and leave the area as quickly as possible if necessary. This is standard operating procedure for other sports I've officiated, so I'm not quite sure why basketball would be any different. If there are truly "no sane adults or other authority personnel" at the game, why would you be crazy enough to stick around and re-engage an attacker?

While we can preach the "the court is an extension of the classroom" mantra all we want, comparing a fracas in school to one that happens on the court in an offseason basketball tournament is insane.

Who's to say some punk wasn't going to run after the officials if they tucked their tails and ran to the parking lot?

"Athletic events are an extension of the classroom", IMO, is only valid for athletic events that are legitimately education-based, such as a middle school, high school, or college game played with student-athletes, teacher-coaches (at least through the high school level, inclusive), and adequate security and supervision for participants.

My MO in any non-scholastic game without adequate supervision is to stop the game if there are any inflammatory situations, resolve them, if possible, and then get out of Dodge if the $#&* hits the fan.

This.

And, this.

It's hard to say what will be done in the moment. Another similar video that was posted within the last year was an off duty police officer shoving a teenage female official. Calmer heads should prevail but you never know what will be done by players or officials when unique situations filled with adrenaline arise.

Agreed. Noone can ever definitively predict with 100% accuracy what will or won't happen in situations like this.

However, that is not the point.

Even though this particular forum's posts are dominated by regulars, there are even more officials, coaches, and probably some parents & players that lurk (many who are inexperienced officials or potential new officials/considering joining the fraternity).

At the very least, the content of answers coming from experienced officials should reflect best practices rather than excusing, dismissing or even indulging ego and/or fulfilling the desire to show someone what's what when in a seemingly overwhelming situation - regardless of whether or not the incident occurred in an NFHS game or on a "glorified playground".

I could be way off with that assessment/opinion, but, this forum - for the most part - has proven to be extremely educational and helpful in it's content. But, some of the responses in this thread are, at the very least, head-scratchers, if not outright jaw droppers.

Spare me.

Defending oneself = ego. Laughable.

I have to assume you either didn't watch the video with a critical eye or was involved or know someone that was. Probably the former.

I speak as someone who was threatened after a baseball game by a parent years ago.

I could've run to the car and drove away, but I had gear on and it just seemed a bit ridiculous to run from a place where I just made $50 working a 3 hour baseball game. I wanted to change clothes and not deal with idiots.

So I told the guy I'd drop him with my mask and then I'd call the police to have him arrested afterwards. Would I have? No idea. He walked away. I think he thought I was a little bit crazy.

Could I have reacted "better"? At that moment, I simply didn't care.

Too much blaming the victim going on here. These officials were the VICTIMS.

And baseball is similar to summer basketball or the kinds of events shown in this situation. Often you have no place to go and several times in baseball I was confronted or by a partner that was confronted about something after a game. Often you had to say things to make them think you were either a little crazy or that you threaten to call the police. People usually are not froggy enough to do anything, but I am not taking a chance. And walking away does not always solve the issue some of these people think it will. They are just lucky they did not have to deal with a situation.

Peace

Unfortunately, that example does not relate to the OP. There HAS to be clarity and recognition that dealing with minors (under the age of 18) and adults is incredibly different.

Here's a few comments from legal professionals as it relates to an adult asking if he has the right to fight back against a 16 year old, if the kid initiated a physical confrontation. Take heed. You may not like it, but it's reality. In addition, you likely would not be officiating youth sports anymore, especially if your engagement in the violence causes harm to a minor.

"It is simply better to turn away and not engage him. You can only use self defense as a defense when charged with a crime. What you are contemplating is actually being arrested and charged with harassment or third degree assault and then raising self defense as an affirmative defense. My suggestion is to not expose yourself to a night or weekend in jail, pretrial serves, posting bond, hiring an attorney, etc. Any incident could very well be viewed by law enforcement as at least disorderly conduct of having a mutual fight. You simply don't want to go down this long and expensive path. No one is going to advise you as an adult to strike anyone, let alone a child."

"Nothing but bad things will come from you striking a 16 year old."

I'd take my chances if I thought I was threatened. Better the attacker than me.


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I'm not a teacher so I do not really care. I am a parent and if the right thing happens I will knock out a 16-year-old if they are doing something to my child or if they are harming my wife. When you say this, keep in mind you are doing this through a very narrow lens. Because you must realize that 16-year-olds might commit crimes where they will be confronted. This just happens to be a situation at a sporting event, but not all situations are at sporting events or even in schools where kids have assaulted people or been involved in mob mentality.

You might be right, but I will take my chances when one comes after me and starts throwing punches. If I am an official I am still a person underneath the shirt.

Peace

I'm simply going to give the official the benefit of the doubt given what these types of events are known for. You've chosen not to.

Glad to know you're holier than thou. Hope you're not my partner if I'm ever in a situation like this.

Exactly and that is the point of this. I do not want to work with people that think we only should walk away when we have nowhere to go. Sometimes you have to stand up for yourself and it does not often relate to actual violence, but if they believe they can just run up on you without response, they will.

Peace

Fair enough.

And, I have definitely chosen to doubt the officials involved exercised common sense before and during the incident.

But, I think there is a lot to be learned for anyone and everyone that has viewed the clip and has read this thread.

I will continue to live comfortably with that for a whole lot of reasons.

Wait...what? This discussion was never about defending a wife or child. Let's stay on topic and point.

Man the what ifs and walking on water here. Coulda, shoulda, woulda, but actually did get assaulted by a bunch of "kids" who happen to be bigger than him. I love excuses for crappy behavior.

It's why I always tell women to not dress provocatively it only incites men, and that in turn is their fault for dressing provocatively.

"We haven't had anybody come forward to file a report on it," Kyle Teems, chief of police in Emerson, Georgia, told ESPN. "Obviously, there is something that happened there. No one has come forward yet."

Possibly an error in judgement by these officials to not file a report???

Or perhaps, maybe if they did take it to the police, their own behinds might be in trouble..... :eek::eek:

It was said basically there was no reason to get into with a 16-year-old in any case. I showed this to my wife and she had a visceral position and even suggested that she would likely do something if faced with this situation. So yes there are situations were not alone or without people that might also take a position on what is going on. I also do not know the relationship of all the officials in this case either. There might have been some family members involved. If there is no reason to react as a human, then own it for all situations when you take that position.

I was at a tournament yesterday with 70 courts where some people had family members working as officials or working with family members. I would doubt there is just a "walk away" attitude if certain things go down in certain places. This is the topic. When you suggest there is nothing that we should do because we have the magical stripped shirt on, you are not taking into all the accounts of what could happen. Just because it is not what you imagined in your mind, does not mean making these points are not apart of the conversation. Many of us have life experience in these situations you might not have.

Peace

Keep blaming the victims.


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Just stop. You’re trying too hard.

#MeToo ...
 

I couldn't just sit back. Of course, moderators are free to delete.

Hopefully someone with legal knowledge can answer....at what point in this incident does the "acting in self-defense" privilege end?

I would think this would be based on the location of the incident. Because I know there are different rules in some states like Florida for Stand your Ground laws that would not apply in other states. I guess it would depend on many factors.

Peace

Not a legal answer but Jeff's point is certainly valid....it probably depends on the jurisdiction.

However, many cases I've observed turn from self-defense once the other party is going away from you and you seek re-engagement.

This incident in this video stopped being self-defense about 30 seconds into the video when the referee pushed through someone standing in his way to go after someone.

I am not sure what stopped or did not stop, words were said and if you say certain things that are considered threatening, you might still be able to defend yourself at that point. But again, there were no charges filed at the official, so someone is not thinking they should have stopped what they were doing. It does not matter what we say at this point, this would be up to the State's Attorney in that jurisdiction to decide what laws were violated.

Peace

We just this week had a court case where a homeowner got jail time b/c he continued to shoot at intruders after they had retreated to their vehicle and were leaving the premises.

That was the exact case I was thinking of. That person had no business shooting the criminal. One thing is for sure though, that intruder might think twice the next time they think about pulling a similar heist.

I was just reading about how the same conduct in different jurisdictions can yield very different legal results. A man was sentenced in one state for standing up for himself. He struck second and effectively ended the encounter with that one blow, but the jury determined that he had the opportunity to leave the area after he was struck first and chose not to. The same behavior in a so-called "stand your ground" state would have been defendable.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've watched countless episodes of Law & Order.

These Are Their Stories ...
 

Is that you Mark Padgett? Why are you using Altor's user name?