Ball thrown to oneself off backboard - legal?
 

Picking up from another thread....

A1 dribbles the ball and stops, holding the ball. While holding the ball, A1 jumps in the air and obviously throws the ball off the backboard, the backboard being that of the hoop into which Team A is trying to score. A1 lands on the floor, immediately jumps in the air, catches the ball that A1 threw off the backboard, shoots, and scores. Legal?

A1 was not shooting and A1 was not passing in the throw off the backboard. A1 told us this before the play;)

Happens occasionally in the NBA, especially in All-Star games. Not interested in a ruling for NBA but rather NCAAM/NFHS. I vaguely recall Adams/Collins showing this play and indicating it was not legal. I also vaguely recall them not indicating what the violation would be. I am extremely confident that NCAAM/NFHS case plays exist but just can't recall them.

A.R. 107. A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away
layup. Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his dribble. A1 throws
the ball against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1
rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks.
RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is located in A1’s
frontcourt, which A1 is entitled to use.
(Rule 5-1.1 and .6, and 9-12.1)

Legal. Anything else?

Excellent, thanks. Now we need something for NFHS.

Yes, a case for NFHS.

For FED, are you referring to CB 9.5 Situation?

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and (c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

This play is perfectly legal for NFHS/NCAA. The relevant case plays have been provided. Don't let BillyMac confuse you.
I swear that he slips into a coma every couple of years and asks the same questions after coming out of it.

Not Ruled A Try, Not Ruled A Pass, Not Ruled A Fumble …
 

NFHS only. Not ruled a try. Not ruled a pass. Not ruled a fumble.

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

In one very specific case, not only is it legal throw the ball against one's own backboard, but one can also legally catch it after it bounces back.

We don't know, in 9.5 SITUATION, if said player moved his pivot foot (I'm assuming he didn't for this to be legal), or any foot, before the release. That would make a difference in regard to if he's actually allowed to legally catch it. Nor does it tell us much about what the player is legally allowed to do next.

9.5 SITUATION, as written, is very limited in scope.

9.5 SITUATION, 4-15-1, and Fundamental 19, simply state that if a player ends his dribble with both feet on the floor, throws the ball off his backboard, doesn't move his feet, and catches the ball, that I can't call an illegal dribble (double dribble) violation on him. So I won't. But it doesn't say that I can't call any other violation based on the travel rules if the pivot foot moves outside of the prescribed limits. 9.5 SITUATION alone states that I can't call a violation for simply throwing the ball off of his own backboard, because it's not illegal, because it's not a rule.

These "throw the ball off the backboard and dunk plays" may involve moving a pivot foot outside the prescribed limits, a travel violation.

4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

What if the player touches the floor with his pivot foot between the throw and the catch, moving his pivot foot multiple times between the throw and the catch?

What NFHS rule "resets the pivot foot limits" (like a pass, or a try) after a throw off the backboard?

That's why I believe that the "throw the ball off the backboard and dunk play" is often illegal according to NFHS rules.

That's my rationale, with citations, and I'm sticking to it, at least until ...

Can someone please tell me why, by rule, or by interpretation, it's legal in the NFHS? I will be much obliged.

Because I've never been convinced that this is legal by NFHS rules. Never. Ever. But I'm not closed minded, so please convince me.

I have absolutely no problem ending this thread with, "I was wrong. Nice citations. Thanks for the clarification". And I promise to try to remember that for any future threads, or posts.

Now, where are my house keys?

Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy ...
 

Nice. How come A1 never plays in any of my games, or shows up on any of my written exams.

I Had A Thought ...
 

For those that want to refute my interpretation, how about starting with something along the lines of a player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel. A player can't travel while dribbling, while tapping the ball, while fumbling it, or while trying to recover a loose ball.

Wait, how about a player that ends his dribble, holds the ball, intentionally (not a fumble) throws the ball toward a teammate who moves away after the ball is thrown, and then the thrower runs several feet without the ball to catch it to prevent it from being stolen? That's a travel. Same as the player who ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it (holding it), and then dunks.

Never mind.

Nope, that is an illegal dribble violation.
If the ball strikes the floor before the player catches it, the action constitutes a second dribble. If the ball is caught in the air prior to contacting the floor, then the definition of a proper dribble has not been met and the player has dribbled illegally, which is a violation.

Take a look at 4.15.4 Sit D.

Illegal Dribble ...
 

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)

You Got Persuasion, I Can’t Help Myself (Santana, 1969) ...
 

4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Are you saying that what I'm calling a travel violation (above) is not a travel? It also can't be an illegal dribble because of Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

Please explain further. How has the definition of a proper dribble not been met?

Interesting. Very interesting. You've got my attention. Let's explore this further.

Again, my play is this: The player ends his dribble, throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks.

I say that's a travel violation.

My rule citation is this: 4-44-3: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

Noting that it's not a pass, nor is it a try, nor is it a fumble.

Why is my play not a travel?

And why would this be an illegal dribble (not a travel) if the ball didn't hit the backboard (the player ends his dribble, throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks)?

That's the key to changing my interpretation, which can be changed with further persuasion.

It looks like that what I'm calling a travel may really be an illegal dribble, that can't be an illegal dribble because of Fundamental 19.

I'm actually looking forward to having my interpretation changed because it looks like I have the minority opinion here, and there has to be a good reason why I'm all alone on the minority side.

It's lonely over here. Everybody is pointing at me, and making fun of me. I really want to join the "cool" officials on the majority side.

1. Your play in which the player throws the ball off the backboard is 100% legal because both NFHS and NCAA play rulings say so. That's all there is to it.

2. You changed the play to make an example. I quoted that altered play in post #11 and told you that it is an illegal dribble.

3. What is illegal about throwing the ball into the air then running and catching it? The ball must strike the floor in order to meet the definition of a dribble. If a player doesn't cause the released ball to contact the floor, then the action doesn't qualify as a proper dribble. That is precisely why it is illegal. I've posted about this before, but I'll tell you again, the historical "air-dribble" as noted in the NFHS Basketball Handbook was made illegal several decades ago.

I cannot believe (well I can) why Billy keeps arguing over a very rare situation with the possibility of some related play being what he thinks it is. When is the last time an HS official has even seen this play attempted? I know as a semi-college one myself, I do not think I have ever seen a player try this in a game. I think the last time I can think of is during the Duke-UNLV game when UNLV won running away over Duke in 1990.

Peace

I have a new interpretation:

If over 25% of the responses in a thread are from BillyMac, the question has already been adequately answered for everyone else.

It's Not A Dribble ...
 

Which illegal act has the player accomplished (see below)?

9-5: Illegal Dribble: A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 A try for field goal.
ART. 2 A touch by an opponent.
ART. 3 A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player.

Let's make this as simple as possible and leave the backboard, and the throw out of it.

Play: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

Travel, or illegal dribble?

4-44-3: Travel: The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.

It's not a try, nor a pass, nor a fumble.

I don't believe that it's even a dribble, illegal, or otherwise.

4-15: Dribble: ART. 1 A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats
(intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor once
or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own
backboard.
ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).
ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball
to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

The ball is thrown into the air, not batted in into the air.

It's not a legal dribble. It's not an illegal dribble. It's not a dribble. It's a travel.

Never, Ever, But There Can Always Be A First ...
 

Agree. I have never observed this play in any of my games, nor have I ever observed it in any high school game, and I've observed, or worked, a lot of high school games over almost four decades.

When it happens the first time, I want to call it correctly, not guess to myself, "LeBron James does this all the time so it must be legal. I'm not going to penalize a player because he's athletic." Nor do I want to guess to myself, "Wow that's a lot of steps so it must be a travel".

Lebron recently did it although NBA rules obviously applied. I recall doing it in HS myself a million years ago.

By digging deep into the grammar/wording of various sources, I do indeed see BM's point. I also understand the points made by others.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the ball against: (b) the opponent’s backboard;RULING: In (b), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)

4-15-1: A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) or pushes the ball to the floor one or several times. It is not a part of a dribble when the ball touches a player’s own backboard.

Interesting that the case indicates that throwing the ball against the opponent's backboard is a dribble but yet that action does not fit the definition of a dribble.

Indeed, there are loopholes in the rule/case books and often times they lead to weird/lengthy, and borderline irrelevant, debates.:o Makes it fun though doesn't it? ;)

Why doesn't it fit the definition of a dribble?

If you reference the definition of ball location, it does by way of saying the backboard is treated as if it were part of the floor....

Please Confirm, Or Deny, This Interpretation …
 

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.Y...=0&w=217&h=166

Let's move forward, and not look back.

I think that I'm starting to get it.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

4-15: Dribble: ART. 3 The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.

After the player ends his dribble, he throws it into the air. We all know that a player, all by himself, no defense nearby, may occasionally start his dribble by throwing it into the air (the rule says thrown to the floor, but gravity will end up doing that eventually). So that's the start of a possible second dribble, and his subsequent catch of ball seals the deal and makes it a dribble for sure, more so, an illegal (double) dribble.

Play B: A2 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball off his backboard, runs several feet, catches it, and then dunks.

Now add in the throw subsequently bouncing off the backboard. Fundamental 19 tells us that a ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

So with no backboard involved in the play, it's an illegal (double) dribble.

But with the backboard in the play, the portion of the play where the thrown ball bounces off the backboard back into the hands of the player is not considered to be a part of a dribble (Fundamental 19) so it's not an illegal (double) dribble, so it's legal.

https://youtu.be/uAskXXKV2GU

This apparently legal NFHS "LeBron James play" has nothing to do with traveling, and/or foot movement, it's all about legal dribbling, and/or illegal dribbling.

The possibility of traveling (running to catch) was the shiny object that distracted me. With one rare exception, one must be holding the ball to travel.

Can anyone please confirm, or deny, the reasoning and logic behind this interpretation?

Fall On One's Sword ...
 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but see my most recent post.

Agree, it is fun, especially in the summer, the off season. It also helps us to understand the rules.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.5...=0&w=164&h=163

Fundamental 19 ...
 

Fundamental 19: A ball which touches the front face or edges of the backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower’s
backboard, it does not constitute a part of a dribble.

BillyMac Can't Jump ...
 

https://tse4.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.0...=0&w=300&h=300

My best was to dunk a golf ball. I could never move up to dunking a tennis ball. A basketball was never part of the equation. Never. Ever. Not even close.

Lol, you ask why it does not fit the definition of a dribble and then cite the definition of something else, ball location. Huh? I simply said it does not fit the definition of a dribble and indeed, it does not. Besides, that is regarding ball location, nothing else like dribbling/traveling/carrying/etc. IOW, it is treated as being inbounds when it hits the backboard, not treated the same as being a dribble.

Strange that it is neither a pass, shot, nor a dribble. What is it then? Strange that we can have a player have control of the ball, throw it against the backboard, change positions on the court, regain control of the ball in the air, and do these actions repeatedly.......and it is all legal....and nothing would go in the stat book other than elapsed time. No passes, no assists, no shot attempts, no rebounds, no etc. Not sure if that could happen any other way in the game of basketball.

I did not dunk it either, just threw it off the backboard to myself and then shot a lay-up.

The rule I quoted says the backboard is defined to be the same as the floor. Thus, the ball is, by definition, effectively being thrown to the "floor" when it is being thrown off the backboard. Thus it is a dribble.

However, if you're talking about your own backboard, it too is the floor and would be a dribble, but another rule precludes that from being a dribble. Why? I don't know. The way the rules play out, it is being treated as if it were a try without it actually being a try. I guess is so that we don't have to determine if it was a try or not (unless there is a foul which necessitates that decision).

I agree.

Fundamental 19 ...
 

I also find Fundamental 19 to be odd. I would love to know it's original intent.

I'm A Man Of My Word ...
 

I was wrong. Nice citations. Thanks for the clarification.

A dribble has parts..such as throwing/hitting/batting as well as player control. Once A1 has ended his dribble, he can start another one by throwing (one part) it but then the subsequent control (another part) is what made it illegal. For me, the same logic applies to your case of a shooter, afraid of getting blocked, and releasing it to the floor. Everything is fine until the next part (touching the ball) makes it illegal. I am yet to witness any ref at any level call a violation before the ball even hits the floor. In fact, I have never seen one call it without the player touching the ball. I think that one could easily say the same about A1 (ended dribble) throwing the ball way from himself. No ref is calling anything until A1 touches the ball again.

We've Moved ...
 

bucky: Thanks for your reply. I decided to move the questions (and to delete them from this thread) that you responded to over to a new thread (Dribble). I didn't want my new questions (sparked by the LeBron James play topic) confused with my new questions. Can you please move your response over to the new thread? Otherwise Forum readers may be confused. Thanks.

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.n...=0&w=174&h=165

We're not confused. We stopped caring a long time ago.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

That should go without saying, but since Billy will respond to his own posts several times in the same thread, I cannot help but laughing that someone had to even mention this.

Peace

Moderators Can Stop Such Actions ..
 

Just because I hit "Submit Reply" doesn't mean that I can't continue to ponder a rule, or play situation. Sometimes I may notice something unclear in my original post, or want to add something new for the good of the cause, or something new to back up my opinion, so I repost. I'm not as careful with my oral speech, but if I'm going to write something down, even if it's just on an internet website, I want to be perfectly clear. Sometimes I discover that I'm 100% wrong, may realize it myself, and have to make a correction. If it's wrong to do this, then the moderators have all the power of the internet to stop such actions. I've never used it, and I'm not sure if it actually exists, but can't Forum members "block" other Forum members?

Ignore List ...
 

Just checked, there is an "Ignore List". I refuse to use it, but feel free.

Wait ... I'm being told ... Another what ??? Sorry.