Camp Reviews/Info? Sticky?
 

As this is such a valuable source of officiating information I was wondering if there was any use/want in providing more in depth information about camps available. There is obviously a plethora of camps available throughout the summer catered toward different levels.

From a glance there is this resource providing a broad overview of what is available where: https://phillyref.com/basketball/bas...ereecamps.html
I don't know the complete accuracy of this information but for the few that I have attended or am going to it seemed mostly accurate.

What I am really searching for is a more in depth review of what happens at the camp, registration requirements, who is there, what level, how many games per day, and is it a tryout of any sort. Every camp has there baseline advertisement of:
1. Work High Level Games
2. Immediate feedback from the best clinicians
3. Classroom sessions
4. Video review
5. Blah Blah Blah

There have been numerous occasions in our area where newer officials were told to go to camp. These individuals received countless email promotions and picked some based on the fancy wording. They showed up and the camp was a D1 or D2 tryout camps in which they received little to no feedback to help them improve. Is there some blame on the registrant for not understanding what they were getting into? Probably, but I think the situations should be much more clear then they are in the emails/brochure.

I attend local camps yearly and try to do at least one new out of state camp per year. It is difficult to really know what you are getting into with a camp you have never been to without speaking to someone who has actually been there. In the end we are searching for the best ways to improve and want to be in the best place to excel.

I'd be more then happy to start the review process if people would find it useful, interested to hear thoughts though.

(I did search the forum and didn't find much of this that already exists.)

I'm attending 3 camps this off-season. Two of them are pretty much staff camps. The other one I'm attending is a D1 mid-major try-out camp, but I'm attending b/c the supervisor just acquired a lower level conference I belong to and I want a chance to get in front of him and earn some games on my own merit.

If anyone posts anything about camps with which I am familiar, I will chime in.

D3 Super Camp Basketball Officials Referee Referees Official

I attended this camp at University of Richmond couple summers ago. I found it to be a good skills development camp and would be a good first camp for someone who has some 3-person experience.

I thought it was well organized - a good balance of classroom discussion/feedback and games. They taught a very specific style/philosophy on positioning that they wanted used in the conferences they assign. I found the philosophy interesting personally but it may not translate to what your HS assignors want.

There was a bit too much of a good ol' boy club feel for me personally -- a lot of the officials there were repeat campers hoping to get noticed by the camp directors. I got the impression that attending multiple years was pretty much expected if you wanted to be part of the club.

I am attending 3 camps this summer.

1. ECOA in portland. I have never been but a friend of mine went to this camp in Seattle last year and said that it was very good so we are going together in Portland coming up Memorial day weekend.

2. Verne Harris Denver camp. This is what I would call an unofficial tryout camp for a D2 conference that he assigns. This is local and I have heard good positive experiences from other who have attended.

3. Dave Hall Camp. Dave Hall has a variety of camps. He assigns a Juco league in which most of the teams are in or around Utah. He also hosts a D1 womens tryout camp for mountain west. I have never been to the tryout camp but have been working games when it is going on and this from what I have seen is a tryout camp there is little to no instruction. Been to the other instructional camps for many years. You work a lot of games throughout the three days and get feedback from a variety of people working D1 mostly WCC, Mountain west, and Pac-12.

Been interested in possibly going to these camps but don't know much about them if anyone else has been:

Kansas Basketball Officials Camps
Southern Arizona Officials Camps

Additionally would consider going out to Texas in a future year but not really sure what the best offerings in that large state would be.

I've observed at that camp every year for the last 4-5 years, one day out of the weekend. I attended in 2004, way before I was ready for NCAA ball and came out kind of feeling the same way as you described above. I think that is a function of not being known or familiar with clinicians/supervisors. Attended again in 2008 and got picked up by both conferences. As I've progressed through the years, I've learned that this is a tight-knit group. These 2 supervisors are easily the closest to their staffs out of any of the college supervisors I have worked for.

I won't pretend to know what goes through the supervisors' minds in making hires, but every year 5-7 new guys get hired. It is expected that you pick up on the floor positioning that is taught, especially in the C and Trail. I am a big advocate of the floor mechanics that are taught. My own video review shows that my missed calls overwhelmingly occur as a result of a lack of discipline in adhering to these mechanics.

If you are going to travel long distances for teaching camps, I suggest going to camps run by or associated with NBA officials. Joey Crawford/Mike Callahan's Next Level Camp at Villanova is OUTSTANDING for the amount of instruction you get in a short period of time. A film session with any of these guys (Ed Malloy, Zach Zarba, Mark Lindsey, Mark Wunderlich, etc) is worth the fee by itself.

Curtis Shaw Camp's (COG):
The staff is nice and you can learn a lot if that's what you're into. But it's clearly a tryout camp. For the cost you do get room and dinner, which is a hell of a lot more than what other D1 camps give you. You work 6-8 games in 3 days, so good luck here.

Mike Kitts Camp:
Arguably the most honest tryout camp I've attended. There is no meeting, no teaching, you work 4-5 games over 2 days and leave. Maybe you talk to Kitts, maybe you don't.

D3 Camp:
Concur with Raymond. At least you get food and housing. All meals. I like it.

CBOO Camps (Ebersole)
Tryout camp. Some teaching, but it's a tryout camp. The 3-day JUCO tryout? 6-9 games. The 2-day D2/D3 tryout? 4-6 games. Not exactly quality games. Get your own food/housing.

EP Sports Tryout (Eppley)
Tryout camp. 2-days, 4-6 games. Get your own food and housing. Better quality ball.

Mid-Atlantic Officiating (Sean Hull) Camp
To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't attend it again. It might have changed (hell it likely has) since I last went in 2015. The clinicians didn't really give me a lot of feedback. In fact, of the 5 tapes I got, only 1 of them contained a game I worked.

My biggest gripe was the damn assistant coach who came into the morning meeting and point-blank asked us to not foul out top prospects. I'll give the clinicians credit, they didn't seem to know that was going to happen, but it was the strangest thing I'd seen at a morning meeting.

Worldwide Officiating (Derrick Stafford Camp)
I'm not going back to this one. I signed up to work some Semi-Pro ball, as was advertised in their flyer. Instead I ended up officiating some little kids (they had a Junior bracket and I officiated U12 games) for free. If I wanted that crap I could've stayed home and at least gotten paid for it.

Plus I reffed some 4-man crews, which was cool, but completely worthless in terms of development. I'm not going to the G-League. When would I ever use 4-person? Waste of cash...except for the tape review. Like Raymond said, if you can get an NBA guy to break down your tape, do it. They go over so much in 30 seconds, you're amazed at how they can see it all.

Man, I gotta go to less camps.

D3 Camp
 

I agree with Raymond in that the 2 supervisors are close with their staffs. It gives the camp a friendly, family feel. They are very dedicated to the teaching aspect of officiating, but it is also a tryout camp. I'll never get picked up by either conference, but I attend every year that I can. I use it for professional development networking. It's close to home, and it gives good return on your dollar. It's a good fit for me, and that's all I'm looking for in the world of BB camps. It does indeed make for an excellent first camp.

PS - You also get to work with some greats, i.e. - the one formerly known as BNR & APG.

How about the Mountain East Conference Camp (Mike Eades) at WVU??

Joe Forte Camp in Suwannee, GA:

Joe has one D2 and one D1 conference. It’s been a few years, but to me it was a ripoff. First of all it’s expensive and there’s no food or lodging included ($500 I think was what I paid for just the camp). There are a ton of campers (over 100) and not a commensurate number of courts so you don’t get enough games. I did a game with no clinicians on my court. If Joe likes you, you’re going to get asked to go to a second camp later that summer and pay more money, and you still might not get picked up, so you come back next summer and pay for two more camps again.

That being said, I know some people who have had a great experience at this camp and work lots of games for Joe, so take my criticism for what it’s worth. But to me, this camp epitomizes the racket of the college camp system.

Forte used to run his camps for around $250-300. He either likes you or he doesn't. I know I'm not his cup of tea, so I don't waste my time or money.

He has a poor reputation for accounting/bookkeeping, but when he hires you he works you right away.

Interesting. Was this before he had the Big South? $495 this year per guys I know going.

Also, he and another assigner with a D2 and a D1 league in the same geographic area despise each other, so I don’t think there are many officials who work for both of them. But, I’ve gotten out of that nonsense and maybe things have changed.

I went to a Forte camp a while back that was only $275; still with the same caveat of being invited back to a later camp if you caught his interest.

That other supervisor must be Mike Wood. I not sure many folks are big fans of him, from what I have heard.

I remember when the Bob Gibbons tournament (Ral-Dur-CH) was a free camp where campers were only responsible for their hotel rooms and getting to their games on time. I went there twice. Both years I worked with an official who got picked up by the NBA the following season (Eric Lewis/David Guthrie).

It is. Yeah, he pisses a lot of people off but he takes care of you if you’re one of his “guys.”

Why he and Joe don’t get along is not something I have an idea of. Most college officials I interact with work for one or the other, from what I hear.

It's a product of their super-sized, unchecked egos. There shouldn't be a problem. Tell your officials to close out dates, assign them their games, then farm out the games to other folks on your staff when you receive turn backs.

I know the Southern pays a lot more than the Big South.

While on the Mike Wood topic, I’ll share what I know about some of the other camps in my area (I haven’t been to all of these personally so take it however you want)...

Mike Wood: Peach Belt (D2), Southern (D1)

Don’t plan on getting hired your first time. Mike is famous for not hiring first-time campers and being pretty outspoken about it. Think he normally does his camp at USC (Columbia) team camp.

Rick Ridenhour: South Atlantic (D2)

Held at NC State every year, normally the same weekend as D3 Super Camp. Good price and includes meals and dorm rooms, good feedback and clinicians, I think there’s a video court. Good learning camp even if you don’t get hired.

I hear that Rick no longer has any of the junior colleges in Region X. See below.

Barry Fishman: NJCAA Region X (JUCO)

Word is he picked up the entire conference which he used to share with Ridenhour. Camp is early May; this year it’s May 11-13 in Myrtle Beach (I looked it up). All D1 clinicians, great learning camp especially for a first-time college camper. He won’t hesitate to pick up a young official. No food or lodging.

More info on Barry's camp here: https://www.reftown.com/camps.asp?RID=44

Fishman will be hiring a lot of officials. There are many of Ridenhour's old staff who are not willing to go to camp to stay on a JuCo roster.


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Yep. And a lot of Ridenhour guys who want to work for Fishman probably won’t out of fear of losing SAC games.

I worked for Fishman and Ridenhour at one point. Without detailing why I got out of college ball (there are lots of reasons), Barry's not one to hire guys who think they're too good to go to his camp at least once, no matter what level they work. Right or wrong, that's just the way he and a lot of other assigners operate.

Barry has a great reputation for giving guys their first opportunity and taking his job seriously, but also a reputation for being, quite bluntly, an egomaniac. But he's not alone in that category in this geographic area. If you want to work entry level college ball in the Carolinas (and a few Virginia schools I think), he'll give you that opportunity if you're capable.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, these are all men's camps I've written about.

What camps are relevant to college ball in the DMV? I'll probably not be going to a college specific camp until I have some varsity experience, but I'm curious as to what camps CBOA and other associations covering the Mid-Atlantic use to scout officials.

I've also heard that camps run by NBA officials are good for teaching, such as the Nunn Better Refs camps, the camp in Villanova (don't know its name), etc. Any camps run by NBA officials close to the DMV?

I've also heard that the process to get to the NBA is through the G-League, and that I would need to get picked up from the G-League camp to work in the G-League (not an easy process, but possible if I have enough 3-man game experience, show good judgement, and demonstrate good game management skills). Are there any camps that officials use to prepare themselves to work the G-League camp? I'd like to know, so that I would spend my time and money on something relevant.

Or officials who already have to attend D1/D2/D3 staff camps don't want to pay $225 (plus $300-400 in hotel costs) so that Barry Fishman can ensure his games are covered (his brochure's own words)

And at what point is an on-staff official good enough not to have to attend a JuCo camp to be retained? Jamie Luckie? Doug Sirmons? AJ Desai? Big South tournament official? D2/D3 Final Four official? There has to be a balance of bringing in fresh faces while retaining some veteran continuity. He's going to have problems covering games in VA. NC officials are not going to like having to travel to Norfolk or Petersburg in the middle of the week on a regular basis.

This is not a criticism of Barry Fishman specifically, but of the entire college camp landscape. The college camp system is more about getting bodies to cover games (for which the supervisor is getting paid by the tournament director) than it is about seeing officials so supervisors know whether or not you are going to hire them. Campers are paying to "cover games". Campers should never pay more than $50-100/camp, strictly to cover administrative costs. All fees charged above that amount are what make the college camp system a racket.

Many of your questions have already been answered in this thread.

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OK. I understand about the Villanova camp (Next Level), and that some DMV camps may not really be good. However, are there any camps that officials specifically use to prepare themselves to go to the G-League tryout camp? AFAIK, the G-League camp uses NBA rules and mechanics, and you have to learn those rules and mechanics somewhere. However, most of the camps mentioned in this thread are tailored to high school and (aspiring) college officials. Are there any specifically dedicated to teaching professional rules and mechanics?

No. You are expected to have some familiarity on your own. The NBA rule book is available online. You are expected to be #1, ATHLETIC!!!. You are also expected to looked somewhat polished. Watch some G-League video and pay attention to the signals, mechanics, and movements of those officials. Get in front of a mirror and work on smoothing out your signals and presentation.

There is no pro basketball officiating starter kit.

Also, right now you are all over the place. You just need to get to a good teaching camp and get your fundamentals together. I would highly suggest the Villanova camp. Also, attend at least one of the try-outs camps for Tim Ebersole or Donnie Eppley. Going to a try-out camp will give you an idea of what you need to do to get to that level.

Here's an article you should read: http://www.pennlive.com/sports/index.../post_578.html

I have been to Southern Arizona Camp and Chris and Bob do a great job of teaching and you get excellent feedback especially if you are just starting out.

Yep.

In this racket, everyone wants a piece of the pie, including JUCO supervisors who pretend like they assign D1 ball. I know the guy who assigns the Georgia NJCAA schools is the same way.

College tryout camps are a money-making endeavor primarily, a means of finding new officials secondarily (or lower). That’s the reality you accept if you want to work college ball.

Thanks, considering making the trip next year

Well said. The disappointing thing is that the assignors are (usually) officials, too. They're making tons of money on the backs of their peers. It's greed.

OK. This year, I will be attending the MBOA camp at Annapolis, and Que'z Crawford's Level One Basketball Officials camp in DC, to get more practice with 3-man (I worked sub-varsity and intramural games this past season, and am looking to get varsity games
next season or the following season).

Next year, I'll look into going to the Villanova camp, and either one of Tim Ebersole's camps, or a camp run by Donnie Eppley. I'll also look to work one of the NIRSA tournaments, if an alumnus is allowed to work those.

I'll also be watching G-League video, if I can find any. Maybe there is some YouTube channel with training tapes for G-League officials. Failing that, I'll look through any G-League games, and watch the officials there.

What is NIRSA? And if it is off-season basketball, no would will be worried if officials are alumni.

Uh, if you’re not in undergrad or grad school, I’m pretty sure you won’t be working at any NIRSA tournaments. :rolleyes:

Just my .02. If you haven't even worked a varsity schedule I wouldn't be traveling long distances and paying chunks of money for camps. I would focus on local camps, usually the local association puts together a list of camps and many are designed for 1-3 years of experience.

I had to google NIRSA but I would not work a tournament or anything else for anything intramural, however I basically know nothing of this organization. If there are summer league tournaments or leagues that assign 3 person (hard to find) I would jump all over those as a method to get used to the mechanics and rotations.

I don't live on the east coast so not sure about distances as things are much more compact so it might not be so much travel, but I would still stick with local opportunities especially if the assignors or higher level referees in your area/association have a development opportunity.

I'm at UMD now. I'll probably be going to The Catholic University of America for graduate school, or to another Washington, DC university's graduate school. The reason I mentioned being an alumnus, because I'm not sure if CUA is a NIRSA member school (or if the other DC universities are, for that matter). If CUA is not a NIRSA school, would I still be allowed to officiate at NIRSA events?

You should ask Jason or Kurt all of these questions that you're asking on a public forum.

I have no idea. This isn't the right place to be asking those questions. Do you even officiate intramurals on your campus? You'd probably have to start there to even think about going to NIRSA tournaments because you probably need the approval of whomever the intramural boss on your campus is. And if you aren't contributing to your intramural program, why should the boss allow you to represent his/her program in a tournament?

I did work intramurals this past season (I worked all the way through the quarterfinals) for Jason Hess, but I do not know if I would be allowed to officiate with NIRSA if I attend a non-member institution.

Returning to the OP, I expected there to be more reviews of DMV area camps. I have been to the Level One Officials camp last year, and can attest to the high quality of instruction there. This camp is a very solid teaching camp, because Que'z combines video of other games, control situations, feedback at your games (this camp was combined with Kevin Nickleberry's coaching camp at Howard University), and gives you the opportunity to work games after the camp ends, for additional evaluation and feedback. I went in not knowing anything of three-man mechanics (other than what I read in the IAABO manual), with no experience of working any sort of 3-man games, to holding my own at a tournament at Stevenson University on August 5th (the Saturday after the camp ended). After I realized what was required of me in 3-man, I was able to confidently make (correct) calls in my PCA, and felt comfortable working 3-man games. After the Level One Camp, my intramural games became easy, from a mechanics point of view, because 3-man had become second nature. If anyone is in the DC area, and has recently started officiating, go to Level One! As soon as Que'z makes information on his camp public for this year, I'll post more. Many of the instructors, including Que'z himself, have college experience, including at the D1 level (MEAC).

I don’t know who Jason Hess is, but wouldn’t you think he’d be a better person to ask these questions?

Also, not going to pretend like I know a lot about intramural officiating or your abilities, but if you only made it to the quarterfinals on your campus, wouldn’t that mean there are quite a few officials that your boss thinks are better than you? Normally the officials going to NIRSA tournaments are the top ones on their campuses.

It was more to do with scheduling than ability (I had an exam on the day after the semifinals were played), and sometimes it is just a numbers game, like in the state playoffs. Jason himself got to the 3rd round of the MPSSAA playoffs (he could have reached the state finals, but there are just too many good officials in MD to guarantee a specific one a state finals game).

Back to the OP subject, I posted a review of a good teaching camp in the DC Metro Area, and am looking for more similar posts.

Teaching Camps in just the DMV? Well, Mid-Atlantic Officiating. Yeah, I said I'm not going back, but that's because I only do tryout camps now. It's an "ok" teaching camp.

MBOA has a camp at the Naval Academy. You can find the info on phillyref. I went there years ago. It was pretty good. Helped me out.

Gotta be honest though, handholding you through this isn't good for you. Just throw yourself out there and don't be afraid to screw-up. At teaching camps. You fail at tryouts and you screw yourself over.

Anyone been to or familiar with camps in Texas? They have a large set of camps throughout the year with some big names like Curtis Shaw. Unsure of the nature of these if they are strictly tryout or teaching.

Pretty sure anything with Curtis Shaw's name on it is a try-out camp since he has about 6 conferences. From what I've seen, they all cost $500-600, lodging not included. Officials I know personally, who have traveled to his camps, say they are meat markets.

Curtis Shaw Camp's (COG):
The staff is nice and you can learn a lot if that's what you're into. But it's clearly a tryout camp. For the cost you do get room and dinner, which is a hell of a lot more than what other D1 camps give you. You work 6-8 games in 3 days, so good luck here.
_____________________________________

You do get lodging, and you get two meals. The rest is on you.

As for a meat market...yeah, that's what it is. The one I was at had over 100 people at it.

The cost definitely seems high at first sight but including room and dinner is a pretty large savings and seems to put the camp more on par with others. I assume that you either tell them you are coming with someone and are roomed with them or randomly assigned a roommate? Is the tournament associated with the camp at the hotel or within walking distance?

Roommates are assigned when you get there. If you want to room with someone specific, tell at the on-site registration.

No, the hotel is not within walking distance. However, it was a within a 10 minute drive to both gyms.

Joe Forte’s camp, which I talked about earlier in this thread, has easily over 100 campers annually. No lodging or food, $495 this year. And he only has two leagues (only one D1). Now that’s a meat market IMO.

Except for when Ed T. Rush was supervisor for the PAC-12, I haven't seen or read about a D1 camp that is not a meat market.

Conferences pay supervisors to hire and manage a staff.

Tournament directors are paying supervisors to provide officials for their off-season games.

We are paying supervisors exorbitant amounts of money for the "privilege" to work their off-season games and for a job interview in which we interact with the supervisor no more than 5-10 minutes the entire weekend.

All. Of. This. Also, the registration fees assigners collect from their staff along with all the camp money.

Waiting for some self-righteous official to come along and say “well no one’s making you pay for it.” :rolleyes:

My true goal is to one day become a conference supervisor. So I can make the real money. I would say that I'd be different, but that temptation sounds too strong to ignore.

Side Note: If you are looking to appear in front of Barry Fishman, the D3 Super Camp website says he'll be there as well.

Kinda insane that commissioners let assigners get away with it, if you think about it.

Why pay someone to hire, assign, and evaluate officials when that individual is going to turn around and charge prospective officials, anyway, to do the exact same thing that the conference is already paying him/her for? If I were a commissioner, I'd feel like I was being ripped off.

I think it's more of a "If it ain't broke..." situation. The commissioners don't care as long as the coaches don't cry about the officials. How the assignors pick the officials isn't their problem.

It's a ****ed up business we're in.

Is it the same way in D3 basketball? If it is, the scale of meat market behavior might be less, but I could be mistaken. AFAIK, CBOA (the men's college basketball association on the east coast) uses an application process rather than a specific recruiting camp, so how are officials seen for that, and similar organizations, if they do not host tryout camps?

Lower level college is very different based on where you are in the country or who assigns it. If a D1 supervisor assigns a lower level college league, they might use that as a stepping stone to their league. Now there are all these consortium arrangments where conferences like the BIG use the lower level leagues to help filter officials to the D1 leagues.

Peace

I’ve never heard of the CBOA but it’s likely just an educational/professional organization and not one that has any assigning functions. “Association” has many different meanings in officiating.

College games are often assigned very differently from high school (depending on which state you work high school in). You’re not going to get a college schedule of any significance without going to camp, no matter the level. For D3, just in this thread there have been postings about the Super Camp in Richmond. There’s also a JUCO camp discussed in this thread.

CBOA is an organization whose main claim to fame is the fact that they offer great officiating insurance at a cheap cost. However, not everyone on the East Coast who officiates college ball is required to be a member of it. I know that from Maine to Pennsylvania most assignors are members of it, however Ebersole isn't. And that man has a TON of games.

You don't need to worry about CBOA until you actually get picked up in a conference.

If you were to start or acquire a camp, what would you do differently than what you have experienced?

I thought CBOA was a bona fide association, like MBOA or Board 12, that sent assignments through Arbiter (or another website) to its members. This means I'll have to go to Ebersole's camp, or whatever camps MAC (the DIII conference), Centennial, Landmark, etc., use to recruit officials, if I want to work college basketball.

If I started a camp, I'd have classroom sessions and games for both those who want to attend a teaching camp, and those who want to try out for my conference. This way, both those who want to learn more about officiating and those who want to attend to try out would be able to gain a positive learning experience. Existing staff would be able to attend at a discount (or for free, if they have other discounts, or get a scholarship). The only difference between "students" and "candidates" would be that candidates would be evaluated and considered for jobs, whereas "students" would just be evaluated. Candidates (those who try out) and students (those who want to attend a teaching camp) would pay the same fee, and would indicate if they want to try out in their application. Candidates would also have a separate meeting about conference logistics, how they would be informed, etc.

I would also ask the tournament director to have the games follow college rules as much as possible (to get candidates experience working college-type games with college mechanics), if my camp was associated with a college conference. For those not familiar with college, I would explain the major rules/mechanics differences at the start of the first day, and include reminders in the informational packet/notes for my campers to reference.

Supervisors aren't really concerned about rules differences when running their camps. They also don't need to look at you more than 5-10 minutes to decide if they are interested in hiring you.

That's surprising, because supervisors are hiring officials for a specific task: officiating men's (or women's) college basketball. An official moving from D3 to D2 or D1, or laterally (from another area of the country) is familiar with how college basketball works, but someone who has never worked college basketball may only know what is printed in the "major rules differences" table in the NFHS or NCAA rulebooks. Thus, a new (er) college official may make mistakes by calling a high school rule in a college game (e.g. closely guarded on a dribble), which could be embarrassing if they happened in a regular-season game. Challenging an official to work out of his comfort zone (using college rules for a high school official) can also assess how good an official is at thinking on his feet, and how quick of a learner he is.

I could see your point, if supervisors just assessed a prospect very generally at camps (does he look like an official, can he move on the court, can he officiate), and then teach more specific stuff at scrimmages to whoever gets hired to the staff that year.

How would I find out which college supervisors have camps and are hiring, if, a few years down the road, I wanted to do the Landmark, or Centennial Conference, or MAC? I know that PhillyRef lists camps, but is stuff like who's hiring or where to go public knowledge for officials?

If a camp is run by a college supervisor, it's a hiring camp, no matter what platitudes are printed in the brochures. You need to (on your own) learn who the college supervisors are in your area of travel. There is no magic starter kit.

Where you live, you need to concentrate on Tim Ebersole and Donnie Eppley for entry level to the college world. If you can travel a little bit, then add Gregg Bennett (ODAC/D3 Super Camp) to that list.

As I have stated before, for the best instructional camps, you need to go to a camp run by NBA officials. If you want training and some insight to what the college world will be like, then D3 Super Camp would be good for you. If you are strictly trying to get hired, then Ebersole/Eppley.

If you have a budget you are trying to adhere to, stay away from D1 camps b/c they are all going to run you at least $500, plus most likely lodging.

You want my personal advice for this off-season. Attend a HS camp affiliated with Al Battista (MBOA/BD12?) and Joey Crawford's Villanova camp (same weekend as D3 Super Camp). Then find another affordable camp. Don't do more than 3 camps.

Brah, that's almost exactly what the average camp is. There's just no difference between "students" and "candidates", cause if a student is good enough to work, he gets hired.

And listen to Raymond. His advice is what everyone here has been pushing for the past 2 pages.

Back to the OP, people have made posts about camps in different areas of the country, including the West Coast, Southeast, and the DC Metro Area. I'm surprised that no one else has posted reviews of the Level One Basketball Officials camp that Que'z Crawford has run, but maybe it is just such a recent thing that very few people have heard about it. Maybe other people can post about other regions that aren't so well covered (The Midwest, Great Lakes, Pacific Northwest, etc.).

You are confusing CBOA's. The one you are thinking of is the local board, Cardinal Basketball Officials Association, that assigns HS ball throughout Northern VA.

I was thinking that the College Basketball Officials Association was a bona fide association. That was the CBOA I meant, not the Cardinal Basketball Officials Association (AKA IAABO Board 255) or the California Basketball Officials Association. I thought that the college CBOA assigned games, so I might get the following schedule in the future:
Date Group Type/Level Position Time Site
Monday MBOA WCAC Girls V U1 6:30 PM Bishop O'Connell
Tuesday CBOA Centennial U2 7:00 PM Hood College
Wednesday MBOA DCIAA JV R 4:00 PM Eastern HS
Wednesday MBOA DCIAA Boys Varsity U1 8:00 PM Eastern HS
Thursday Board 12 MCPS JV U1 5:15 PM Richard Montgomery HS
Thursday Board 12 MCPS V U2 7:00 PM Richard Montgomery HS
Friday CBOA MAC U1 7:00 PM Stevenson University
Saturday CBOA Centennial U1 1:00 PM McDaniel College

Returning to the OP, I would have expected more people to have made posts reviewing camps in other areas of the country, as I have made a review of Que'z Crawford's Level One Basketball Officials Camp.

How many times are you going to say this?

I hire for HS varsity games. I assign about 350 games a season -- about 200 of them boys games.

I couldn't give a squat about how well an official knows the closely guarded rule or how well he/she uses proper HS mechanics.

I care about 2 things -- can that person get calls right at the level I'm hiring him/her for and can that person deal with coaches.

I spent most of this season injured -- I had knee surgery last week. I went to a number of games and watched people work. In 5 minutes, I typically knew all I needed to know about an official. Just like they do at most college camps.

SC, can't we get this thread back on topic? :confused:

The discussion goes where it goes.


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Start a new thread if you don’t like where the discussion went. No one else seems to have an issue. And, we heard you the first time.

And just FYI, when you get to the college level, it is expected and implied that you know NCAA rules. Assigners don’t administer rules exams with a minimum passing score like you have in many states for HS (unless you are trying to work the NCAA tournament). And assigners certainly aren’t spending time at camp teaching rules that you supposed to learn on your own. You prove you know the rules by not f*cking one up, not by taking an exam or showing off your knowledge at camp.

Review camps for what? What I get out of camp might not have much to do with what you would get out of a camp. We are all not at the same level or trying to get the same things out of camps. I attended a camp a few weeks ago and one of the things the camp director ask of each camper was to tell him, "Why are you at this camp?" Every camper had a different answer. Even if you give a report about a camp, that really means nothing to everyone in the first place if you are looking for different things when you attend.

Peace

If I understand things correctly, the rules test that I would take on the NCAA Basketball Arbiter Central Hub is just for tournament purposes, and has no effect on the regular season? I'm not trying to be stupid on purpose, I'm trying to understand how the college world works, what is the same as high school, and what isn't.

Right now, in addition to reading the high school rules before and during the season, I also make it a point of emphasis to read the NCAA rules (Men's and Women's), and the CCA manuals regularly, to grok the NCAA game as well as the high school game. Where I am, high school games use the shot clock, so I have to know at least some NCAA rules to ensure that the operators don't screw up.

To JRut, the reason why I posted my review is two-fold. First, there might be users (and lurkers) in the DMV who might also want to attend a good teaching camp, and who have recently started officiating. Second, this was the original intended purpose of this thread (cf. the title).

You were long hired before you took that test if you were hired by anyone at all. I can put a bunch of money on the line that no assignor gives or takes away games solely on the NCAA test that anyone can take if you pay the fee to join the NCAA Arbiter site.


That is fine, but the point is even if someone does, it is only good as the people you trust honestly. Not everyone goes to a camp with the same expectations. I know I go to camps for my own personal reasons and my evaluation might not apply well to you if you are going for your own reasons. That is one reason I would not post a review of any camp here. I might tell someone what my experience was in private with another person that is asking. For example, if I had a bad experience at a camp, this would be the last place I would likely tell anyone about that experience. And if that is hard to understand, then I am not sure what to tell you at this point.

Peace

Yes but the point is that there are many camps all over and some people don't know anyone who has attended. Some perspective is better than going in blind. A review or thoughts coming from some random person on the internet is better than nothing at all, plus if you get multiple peoples opinion at least you can start to have an idea even if they differ. If a camp is purely a teaching camp with all classroom and zero games worked that is good to know. The full list of evaluators isn't always made available, if your local assignor is working at a camp and you would like to work from him but it is not well known where he is getting new recruits that is valuable information.

It is kinda like Yelp, I most likely don't know anyone that is reviewing a place I might go but I am still interested in their opinion. I have been to places that most people love that I end up hating, and been to places that people hate that I love. The vast opinion or single opinion of something doesn't make it fact but at least with a few other peoples reviews you can get a better understanding of what to expect rather than going in blind.

Again, I think when you attend a camp a review from a random person is really not one I would pay much attention to for multiple reasons and the reasons I stated earlier. But that is me. If you are looking for that, you might not get what you want here. And if a camp is run by a supervisor of some kind or has supervisors for college in attendance, they are not usually "teaching camps." I am going to take another guess. Most people are not posting stickly local camps here. I would not post camps to IHSA certifications when most here would not be in the area or it would not serve them any purpose in their career from another state.

Forgive me but I do not put much stock in Yelp. And would take even less stock in this kind of situation. My point is that you are not going to get enough reviews from people here anyway. There are not many people here that are going to camps all over the country. You might get one or two reviews. I would hope that someone is not making a decision to invest in themselves based off of one or two people they have never met. But again this is me. ;)

Peace

Wouldn't that be nice to know if it was a teaching camp or not? If only you could ask or reference that:rolleyes:.

Would you rather make an investment in a camp based or one or two people you have never met (ignoring the fact that there are people here who are respected in this field) or based nothing but maybe the camp flyer?

You don't have to participate but there is still value to others even if you don't see it.

I guess that depends on what you consider a "teaching camp." Rarely are camps run by a college supervisor where they hire mainly from their camps, are what I would call "teaching camps" from my experience. You will still learn some things, but they are not going to teach you for example 3 person if you have never done it before. They will not teach you even many mechanics if you are not familiar with them. They might address those things, but they are not going to stop the games to show you were to stand on a play. They expect you to know those things.

Is this what mentors are for? You do not have people in your life to bounce off these things with? I know I have met some people here over the years from camps, but I would not call those people someone I mentored their career. And that is why it is also valuable to have a mentor at the level that you are trying to get access to. There might be one person on this site that I would actually listen to about any camp on listed on this site and I would pick up the phone and call them to get that information. Nothing against people here for the most part, but not everyone is where I am or where I am trying to go. Maybe I am old school, I think talking to someone directly is much more valuable than doing everything online or through some detached social media platform.

You responded to me. I was giving my opinion. Now if you want those type of reviews, then wait for those to be posted. ;)

Peace

The extent to which college is different than high school depends heavily on where you officiate high school. In college every league hires its own assigner that you have to get hired by, normally by going to camp. Some assigners have one league, some have a bunch. Some high school areas work like this, or you might be in a state where an association assigns games for a geographic region, and the only way to work games is to be a member of that association.

One thing is for sure, though. In many states (mine being one of them), how you perform on a rules exam is very important. In college, you won’t even take an exam unless you are registering with the NCAA, as you noted. Anyone can register with the NCAA, regardless of whether you are “in contention” for the postseason or not. And, as noted, college assigners are very unlikely to give a damn about how well you are capable of doing on a rules exam. It’s an “unwritten rule” of college officiating that you know and are able to apply the rules on your own.

If you screw up a rule application in a college game, it is very likely you will be suspended by that conference for a game or two. And it does not always matter if you are the official that made the actual mistake. Crews have been changed based on rules mistakes in my experience. In a HS game, you can make a rules mistake and no one mentions such mistake unless the media gets wind of such mistake.

Peace

How the college world works for a newcomer is that a college supervisor or one of his/her trust confidants need to see something in you that inspires confidence that you can be successful at that level. One thing that will drive them away is a bunch of peripheral questions.

As far as reviewing camps in the DMV, you live and work there, so you should be providing your own assessments for us here on camps with which you are familiar. And if you need additional information, you should be in communication with college officials in your area and get direct feedback from them based on their knowledge and experience.

On a side note, Tim Ebersole picked up the new D3 conference that was formed, Atlantic East Conference. So like the JuCo supervisor out of SC, Ebersole is going to be looking to bring in new officials. May behoove you to attend one of his myriad of camps this off-season.

Understood. I don't know very many people offline (not good enough to ask for advice on camps), and that is why I'm asking the questions I am online. I've also only been to Level One Basketball Officials (the camp run by Que'z), which I posted a review for, when it comes specifically to basketball camps. I'll be away for most of June and July, but if Ebersole happens to have a camp in August (or later), I'll make sure to show up for that.

Why would you not be good enough to ask advice about a camp? I give advice to officials about camps all the time that are just starting. I give them the advice that fits their skill level to know what they are going to get into if going to a specific camp. For example, if you have never worked a varsity game, I might not tell you to go to a high-level college camp expecting to be hired at that level, but might tell you what you can learn from that camp.

Peace

I meant that I might not know people well enough to ask them about camps. Sorry for my wording being confusing.

Then just ask someone and let their answer lead you. They might give you the names of the people that know more than them.

Peace

Your assigner? Someone in your association? (I recognize that different areas do things differently, so these might not work directly for you.)

All the Beltway boards have plenty of access to college officials. There is no bigger camp gym rat than Al Battista, and he does a lot of interaction with MD high school officials.

I am a bit late in responding to the OP however...

Generally speaking.. "teaching camps" are for people who want to become a HS Varsity official or hone their skills as a HS Varsity official. Any local association or state association should be able to provide a small list of these types of camps. Most are run by very experienced HS Varsity officials and association leaders. College camps, most often, will tout being a great way to "learn" or even use the words "teaching camp" but in reality they are merely meat markets for college assignors. Some things can be learned, but very little, presuming you have experience before going to a college camp. College assigners want your money, not to teach you things they know. After all, the last thing they want is for you to take their place.

(BTW, if attending a college camp, never ask any clinician/assigner a question. If desperate, ask another camper. OTOH, if at a HS camp, ask away)

This is a ridiculous overgeneralization. Sure, you don't want to bother the clinicians with incessant questions while they're trying to do their job, but there's nothing wrong with asking for clarification or additional feedback when the opportunity presents itself.

Huh? Where did you come up with that?

Of course you ask questions. What you don't do is bother a clinician when he/she is actively engaged in trying to observe another crew.

I totally disagree. I have asked clinicians at very high levels questions and they will almost always answer. There is a time and place for questions in may situations for sure. If they are giving instruction on a court, that is not the time to ask questions. But if they are not observing at the moment or they want to know more about you, it is very appropriate to ask questions.

Peace

Well, the Big Ten Men's Consortium Camp uses full NCAA rules for its games (the only exception to that is the restricted area). I got that information from an official from Indiana who was invited to attend by Larry Scirotto (disclosure: he did not work any games, but he observed those who did). This official also told me that 32 campers were sent home for not stopping the game clock when calling fouls and violations, which is a point of emphasis in NFHS and NCAAM basketball. If the Big Ten uses NCAA rules for its camp, I wouldn't be surprised if other DI camps also used NCAA rules.

Perhaps the Big Ten Consortium Camp does this because the officials who attend it are already familiar with NCAA rules from working JUCO, NAIA, DIII ,and DII games, but it would not be a bad idea to expose officials at a JUCO/DIII camp to college rules, and see how they apply those rules in game situations. It will allow evaluators to see how willing and able are the officials at camp to learn new rules, apply them, and think on their feet in unfamiliar situations (using NCAA rules for a HS official).

I am not sure of your point. I work the EYBL every spring and we use full NCAA rules. I work other camps where the officiating camp directors don't even know what rules are being used.

I've never heard of a camp where campers get sent home. That is new to me.

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Earlier in this thread, a user remarked that camp directors do not care about NCAA rules "Supervisors don't care about rules differences" were the words used. To my understanding, camps for evaluating and hiring college officials were as likely to use HS as college rules, and this is surprising when the specific purpose of those camps is to evaluate college officials. This is why I mentioned the Big Ten camp, as that could be either an exception to that pattern, or an interesting trend of its own (DI camps use NCAA rules because that is what veteran college officials who would try out for DI conferences are most familiar with, whereas JUCO/DIII camps use high school rules, because that is what HS officials wanting to break into college know).

If the Big Ten Consortium Camp (and the other DI consortium camps) are tryout camps, it would make sense for an official to be sent home if evaluators do not believe that he could be hired. I suspect that the MEAC camp does not send people home, but then you would have needed to either have good recommendations or to go there multiple times to get hired there.

You really need to stop. Seriously just stop. No one is being sent home for during camps as a norm or even as a practice. I attended 3 camps this summer where the camps are used to help determine who might be hired for the BIG Consortium and no one was ever sent home. Many of the officials that attend these camps have absolutely no chance of being hired for all kinds of reasons. They are either too young, too inexperienced or just not good enough and no one is sending a person home because they do not perform to a certain standard. Most of these camps did not even use college rules.

For one sending people home would kind of ruin the entire structure of the camp to have the games covered for the event. You start sending people home you have to change the entire schedule and create holes in who was working the games that would still have to be filled. It is rare that they ask people to cover a game in the first place, let alone for someone not able to work for injury or someone leaving early. And many camps like this, people are states away from the location and sent hundreds of dollars. I would not be good business if people are doing those things and then you randomly sending people away that will not be hired. I personally was more than 3 hours away from each of the major camps I attended this summer alone. One camp I had to fly to get there as it was out east and if you start sending people like me home, I cannot just change my flight days or hours because I was not good enough. Then many of the BIG Consortium camps have schools from the North and South Dakota, to New Jersey and Connecticut while holding it in Chicago and Indianapolis and they are not sending people home that might be from those states I just mentioned where schools are located.

Maybe you need to start attending these camps, then come back and tell us what happens. I bet sending people home is not something you will ever realistically see. Heck there is going to be a lot you will see that we are telling you, but again you keep telling us what you know and have never done basic things that people here have done in these areas of training.

Peace

Those two statements are not the same thing.

And, most camps are in conjunction with some players "tournament" or "summer league" or something, and it's the TD who sets the rules.

Further, the issue you mentioned about "stopping the clock" has to do with mechanics, not with rules. And, yes, clinicians do care about the specific mechanics being used (to the extent feasible given the camp setting).

It is only surprising because you are refusing to absorb what you are being told. You are applying your own criteria to what a supervisor is looking for. Your POV does not jibe with what really goes on. Playing rules for camps are determined by the level of competition, not by what NCAA conference is conducting an officiating clinic.

Physical appearance, hustle, play-calling. Takes a supervisor about 5 minutes to see those things and determine if he/she wants to look at you some more.

I just attended a D1/D2 try-out/staff camp a few weeks ago. The supervisor is an NCAA rules EXPERT. He had no idea what the rules for our games were and did not care.

There are plenty of officials in this forum who have worked or are still working different levels of college basketball and have attended plenty of college camps. What we are telling you about camps is not "what we heard", but what we have experienced.

And as Bob just posted, there is a difference between mechanics and rules. No matter what the rules are, we are expected to incorporate NCAA mechanics as much as possible and feasible.

As mentioned (and ignored) many times, college assigners care about play-calling, not how well you can recite the rules and do on a test. Play-calling is by its very nature philosophical; the rules are a guide but they aren't going to tell you everything you need to know about getting plays right, and they certainly won't tell you what an assigner's preferences are for how certain plays are officiated. And quite honestly, basketball is not a sport where one's play-calling should change significantly between high school and college rules. There are only like ~30 rule differences in basketball and most only matter when the ball is dead; it's not like football where there's a rule difference to think about on almost every play.

But, if you want to keep using your own criteria to decide what supervisors care about without absorbing what experienced officials tell you, be my guest.

How was your latest camp? What feedback did you receive?

Translation: HS camp = HS mechanics, men's college camp (JUCO, NAIA, NCAA) = CCA men's mechanics, women's college camp = CCA women's mechanics, G-League camp = NBA mechanics (and rules)?

At a Proactive Referee or similar high-level teaching camp for multiple levels, use whatever mechanics I am most familiar with?

I don't know what "Proactive Referee" is, but use the mechanics the camp director says to use. Absent that, use the mechanics your partners agree to use.

Here is a post from another thread with feedback from the MBOA camp that I attended in June. I'll give you the feedback that Que'z and the other observers give me from Level One as soon as I can.

This is the website of Proactive Referee Camp, a high-level teaching camp in the Philadelphia area staffed by multiple NBA and NCAA officials, including Mark Lindsay (director), Duke Callahan, Ed Malloy, Rob Rorke (also Court Club Elite), Joe Lindsay. Other current observers/former supervisors include Al Battista, Ed T. Rush (Court Club Elite founder), and Dave Libbey. This is the camp that shows up first on the NBRA website on the training camps page.