The situation:
A is down by 3 points and has the ball with time running out. A1 takes a running 3 point shot. B1 attempts to setup defensively but doesn't get into a legal guarding position.

a) Shot is released, horn sounds, then as an airborne shooter A crashes into B before returning to floor. Shot goes in or misses.

b) Shot begins but is not released, horn sounds, ball is released, then A crashes into B as an airborne shooter. Shot is good or misses.

I looked up the definitions and have some theories, but would like your interpretations. BYW I am using NFHS rules.

Ok, you say that the defense doesn't get set in time, so I'm assuming that if there's any foul call to be made, it's against the defender. If the foul is on the shooter, in either situation, then it's a player control foul; the ball is dead immediately, no points can be scored on the try, and the game is over.

This is a foul against the defender while A1 is in the act of shooting. So if the shot goes in, score it and shoot one FT with nobody on the lane. If the FT is good, game over. If it misses, we have OT.

If the 3-point shot misses, then shoot 3 FTs with nobody on the lane. If all 3 FTs are made, we have OT. As soon as A1 misses one of the FTs, the game is over.

You say "shot begins", so we have A1 in the act of shooting. But since the ball has not been released on the try, the horn causes the ball to become dead. Therefore, the contact by B1 is ignored, and the game is over. See Exception 3 included in Rule 6-7.

a) shot counts if good, foul counts, up to three shots, or one shot. If no overtime, you and your partner get the heck out of Dodge City.

b) ball dead at horn, game over. You and your partner get the heck out of Dodge City.

[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 10th, 2003 at 09:25 AM]

So on b) the airborne shooter doesn't apply?
 

The horn sounds before the ball is released, so no shot can count. Does the airborne shooter lose his rights at the horn? He is fouled before he comes down on the shot. But the game is over.

Re: So on b) the airborne shooter doesn't apply?
 

If the ball is not released when the horn sounds, the ball becomes dead at the horn, the foul doesn't count and the game is over. If the ball IS released when the horn sounds, the ball remains live until the shot is made, or will clearly not make it. If you can't tell whether the horn or the release came first, you've got to call it one way or the other, and then go with it. And when the game IS over, you and your partner get the heck out of Dodge City.

Does anyone know why Jurassic Referee's replies in this thread keep appearing, and then disappearing? Has he moved into the twilight zone?

so, once the horn goes, if the ball is still in the shooter's hand, the ball is dead and no foul can be called? Even if the shooter clearly got fouled before releasing the ball?? (I know this is not quite the sitch described above) I must be having a brain cramp on this one.

Of course, you left out the third situation. A1 airborne, contact with B1, horn sounds, and ball released. Now the cpontact is called because it came before the horn, even though shot came after the horn.

See Rule 6-7-Exception-3:" The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when...a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight... "

In other words, the ball is dead when the horn sounds, and a foul committed during a dead ball is ignored (unless it is flagrant or technical).

If you're doing a great job answering the questions,there's no reason for me say basically the same thing,is there?

Keep up the fair work. You've got a great future behind you!

Didn't attach a smiley.Wonder how many people thought I was serious on the last one?

It doesn't stop anyone else, when YOU"RE doing a great job. I think it's called "reverb".

See Rule 6-7-Exception-3:" The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when...a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight... "

In other words, the ball is dead when the horn sounds, and a foul committed during a dead ball is ignored (unless it is flagrant or technical). [/B][/QUOTE]Rule 4-19-1NOTE. You left out "or by or on an airborne shooter",if I remember right,which certainly could be pertinent also.

Comments,anyone?

Hawks Coach brings up a good point
 

I had that situation about 3 years ago. Girl driving for the basket, foul called, horn blows, ball released, ball goes in. Since the ball was released after the horn, the basket was waived off. The girl was sent to the line with no one on the lane for two shots. Didn't get any argument from coaches. Hope I made the right call.

Rule 4-19-1NOTE. You left out "or by or on an airborne shooter",if I remember right,which certainly could be pertinent also.

Comments,anyone? [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think he's an airborne shooter, if the ball is dead before he leaves the ground. 4-1-1 says, "An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor." If the ball is dead before he leaves the ground, he's not "try"-ing anymore, is he?

I don't think he's an airborne shooter, if the ball is dead before he leaves the ground. 4-1-1 says, "An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor." If the ball is dead before he leaves the ground, he's not "try"-ing anymore, is he?
[/B][/QUOTE]From Damian's initial post that started this thread:

(b)"...<b>then A crashes into B as an airborne shooter</b>"

The complete wording of R4-19-1NOTE that Chuck is referring to in his answer is "Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant <i>or is committed by or <b>on</b> an airborne shooter</i>".

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 10th, 2003 at 12:37 PM]

Interesting. Any airborne player. As my answer above indicates, I would've applied that note only to an airborne shooter; and as Juulie pointed out, A1 is NOT an airborne shooter in situation 2.

Hmmm. So jump, horn, foul, release. . . we're gonna give 3? Or since there's no try, we're gonna give 1-and-1?

My bad,Chuck! The cite should say "airborne shooter".

Whew!! I know stand unabashedly by my original post in this thread!! :)

How can you give 1/1,by rule? What if they're <b>not</b> in the bonus?

http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation...guinsdance.gif

JR, just completely disregard the post you quoted there. I was thinking that you were saying that we had to penalize the foul against the airborne player, even if that player was not an airborne shooter. Just disregard it.

And lay off Manny! :p

Nice penguins, tho. :)

1)When does he stop being an airborne shooter in this sitch? When the foul occurs? When the period ends? When one foot returns to the court? And how does that reconcile with the language of R4-19-1NOTE? When does this Note cease to apply?

(2)Manny who?

3)Thanks. One of my favorite gifs. Just like to watch the l'il guys dance. Just fun to watch.

Not that I'm in the habit of coming to the aid of those un-American Red Sox fans but the way I understand the sequence - jump, horn, foul, release - A1 has not become an airborne shooter since the period ended prior to releasing the ball on the try. He's just a plain-old player in the air.

Or am I missing something else?

Quote:

(2)Manny who?

Manny are called but few are chosen.
You been hitting Padgett's meds again, haven't you?

http://www.greencoast.ca/sitez/CD_Ki...ages/dazed.jpg

You been hitting Padgett's meds again, haven't you?

[/B][/QUOTE]
http://www.sodamnfunny.com/Animation/Gif/shakielmo.gif

Not that I'm in the habit of coming to the aid of those un-American Red Sox fans but the way I understand the sequence - jump, horn, foul, release - A1 has not become an airborne shooter since the period ended prior to releasing the ball on the try. He's just a plain-old player in the air.
[/B][/QUOTE]So R4-19-1NOTE don't count? How about R4-19-1 above it -"A personal foul also includes also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead"? Doesn't specify how the ball became dead,does it?

So R4-19-1NOTE don't count? How about R4-19-1 above it -"A personal foul also includes also includes contact by or on an airborne shooter when the ball is dead"? Doesn't specify how the ball became dead,does it? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yer just yankin' our chains, right?

An airborne shooter is someone who's released the ball on a try. If the horn sounds before the ball is released, then the ball becomes dead immediately, the release isn't a try and A1 is not an airborne shooter.

A1 would then be a false-airborne shooter, right?

(1)Yer just yankin' our chains, right?

(2)An airborne shooter is someone who's released the ball on a try. If the horn sounds before the ball is released, then the ball becomes dead immediately, the release isn't a try and A1 is not an airborne shooter.

[/B][/QUOTE](1)Who,me? Worked for a while though,didn't it. :D

(2)Trying to make the point that you need to know <b>all</b> the rules relating to these types of situations. If you didn't know the language of the exception3 of the R6-7 rule that Chuck used,you might have tried to apply the R4-19-1 language to it instead. This isn't one of those theoretical,fun-to-play-with,never-happen situations,either.This one,and the different ones like it,aren't that rare.

Forget the airborne shooter provision. If the player has started the motion that normally ends in a shot and they are fouled, they are considered to be fouled in the act of shooting. It seems to me that if you rule that the act of shooting occurred before the foul, and foul before the horn, you still have a foul in the act even if the horn goes first.

I think that, by now, you have agreed with me, but I'm not 100% sure. I just want to point out that while Damian used the words "airborne shooter" I think he uses them incorrectly. R4-19-1Note doesn't apply to someone who is in the air just because he couldn't stop himself when the horn blew. I think that's what Chuck was saying, but I'm not sure. Maybe after these long-difficult-church-meeting-weekends I should just not check the board till tomorrow!

A try begins with the habitual motion blah blah blah. An airborne shooter is a player in the air who was released the ball on a try. We agree in this play there was a foul on the try but there was not an airborne shooter since the try was never released.

We agree in this play there was a foul on the try but there was not an airborne shooter since the try was never released.
[/B][/QUOTE]No, we don't agree.There was no foul on the try because the horn ended the try, and the foul occurred after the try so it is ignored.

Quit trying to confuse us. I hate when people do that!

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/laurelhardy.gif

Just to clear things up, JR, are you the pot. . . or the kettle? :)

No, we don't agree.There was no foul on the try because the horn ended the try, and the foul occurred after the try so it is ignored.

Quit trying to confuse us. I hate when people do that!

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/laurelhardy.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Oops you're right. Got it jumbled up - jump foul horn release is what I was thinking. Jump horn foul release is no foul.

I think we do agree. I was referring to my third case, jump, foul, horn, release - it is a foul in the act because airborn shooter is not the relevant issue - the relevant issue is that it was a foul before the horn and the foul was on somebody in the act of shooting.

On the other case, we also agree - jump horn, foul, release - game over.