Spin move - D2 Title game (Video)
 

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Peace

it's a travel. But honestly, I just never see these called and I don't really care if they aren't. I still think it's impressive that players can do it and have the balance. It is a very difficult call to make. I think these videos are helpful though and I did tell a really good high school player who did a couple of similar ones that she was getting close to traveling and explained why. It's very difficult to do a spin move (no dribble) without traveling. I called her one on and she was good with it. I guess a part of me does not want to see refs go travel crazy by calling them. They don't happen a lot and I prefer we catch the ones that are more clear.

Rule book: yes
Application: no

I think he traveled twice. The hop at the beginning of the move (although that one is close) and the spin.

And, yes, I call it when I see it.

I agree. Always listen to Bob! I call it when I see it.

This season after the second time I called his center for travelling on her spin move. The coach didn't ask why. He just said " but that's what I taught her." I had a good laugh to myself, and moved on.

I started calling it this year after a video session with my association convinced me that, absent a skillful extra dribble, these are always travels.

I can’t subscribe to the feeling that I shouldn’t call these. Change the rules if you want this move to be legal, but at the end of the day under the current rules, my calls are defendable upon video review.

I feel like violations aren’t as subjective as fouls. The only judgment I need to apply is whether or not I’m sure a travel occurred. Based on good training, I’m now sure one did 90% of the time I see this move. So…I call it.


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Even though I haven't worked any games in quite some time, I still know enough to agree with Bob. As always, he is right-on.

Travel, obviously. The travel rate on these spin moves is higher than 99 percent. Ultra-rare is the proper execution under NFHS rules.

Nonetheless, I almost always lay off in my games because NOBODY wants this called a travel, rules be damned. Not players, not coaches, not fans, and most importantly, not assignors.

I find it interesting that this is still a travel by rule. FIBA changed their rule, and the NBA rules already allowed it. No one wants it called and now the NFHS and NCAA rule sets are the only ones where it is technically still a travel world wide.

This, all of this.

And we care why what FIBA does? Does not the best players in the world often come from this country? Unless I am missing something the best players in the NBA are American outside of the "Greek Freak." And it appears he traveled before the actual spin anyway. Is that part legal in FIBA rules?

Peace

I find it interesting that we expect 3rd graders to not travel, but not the best athletes in the world. This is just laziness.

What's funny is that, until FIBA changed the rule, FIBA officials called a many more travels on the spin move than NCAA officials.

I understand your point but...the bottom line is:

For third graders, it is about their education. The best athletes in the world are about our entertainment.

I find a lot of things "interesting" in theory versus application. It is what it is and will change when the expectation of coaches, assignors, and all officials change at any given level.

Just think about this though. Why does a FIBA or NBA player need a "gather step"? He doesn't. The defense is placed at a disadvantage (because he must move backward and keep himself in LGP) when the offensive player is allowed to continue moving (after a pass) or change direction (during a spin move) at full speed without dribbling. This was the reason for the pivot foot rule in the first place.

If we are going to give the offense more latitude, we should do the same for the defense. We should get rid of LGP altogether. If the defensive player is not moving toward the offensive player and the offensive player hits the defensive player in the torso, it should be a PC foul. This would put offense and defense on equal footing.

I will deal with these in order:

1. I care because its the rule set I officiate under. People with aspirations to move to pro level in states or anywhere else in the world will care because NBA and FIBA are moving closer together so all pro ball world wide is more common. You don't have to care what the rule is or what they do if you don't want. In the context of the argument that "NOBODY wants it called" everyone in the world except the NFHS and NCAA have a rule where it is technically a travel anymore was the point.

2. Majority of the NBA players (best of the best?) come from USA and grow up playing NFHS and NCAA rule sets primarily and other than an occasional blip the US still currently dominates Olympics and Adult world championships. I don't have the stats on how many professional basketball players there are in the world and what percentage are American, so how many of the pros world wide by percentage are American I can't tell you. As I assume by "this country you mean the USA".

3. Went back and rewatched the video looking for the early travel. My break down (of the slow motion portion at the end) has him get his hand under ball (between 29-30 second mark). At that point he has back foot on the ground , front foot in air stepping stepping. With FIBA and NBA rule that back foot down is a zero step. The next two feet down (spinning or not) which is all he takes are now his pivot and no pivot foot. He can now go off two and not travel or pivot OR pivot under and power step without it being an NBA or FIBA travel.

PS: In a totally unneccessary move, here is the link to the list of non American players in the NBA. No Lebron or Steph on the list but guys like Kyrie Irving , Ben Simmons and Jamal Murray are pretty good.

http://pr.nba.com/nba-international-players-2017-18/

I have no idea what you just said? What is in bold is a PC foul and I don't see what LGP has to do with this.

The powers that be want MORE offense and MORE freedom of movement. They DON'T want defensive battle royales with teams beating each other up. Basketball is a game of finesse which happens to also have some level of contact baked into it. I still haven't noticed any decrease in PC fouls and this argument only comes up with an opposing player does it so it's not really an issue.

The plain truth is that if you call a lot of travels (or 3 second violations) in your games your ceiling is very low these days. That took me about a year or 2 to digest and comprehend and I adjusted how I called the game. The case in point is the @#$@#$ bunnyhop that shooters do beyond the arc. It drives me crazy but when I stopped calling it I started getting better games, moved into JUCO and a year later did a few D2 games. After about 3 years of that I decided it wasn't for me as the time to $ was a bit skewed along with the attitudes we have to deal with.

You don't have to listen to me but it's what it is. No amount of complaining will change it. I always remember the saying that I heard the most from any official that either is or was at the level I wanted to get to.

"Any call you make you better be ready to hang your reputation and career on the line."

Was I going to do that for 50/50 travel calls made in real time with kids who were faster than spit in traffic, in a lane, making an offensive move to the basket?

The argument is a player safety issue (that is not a player safety issue), but its actually a product issue. The rules are designed (FIBA, NBA) for adult professional men to play in front of paying crowds. As a result they want more dunks, more fast breaks, more high speed action and less standing and grinding. They are given the extra step because the speeds and masses of the bodies involved. Getting giant men travelling at reckless speeds, to stop their forward momentum using the foot already on the floor without travelling would require either A) an unnatural stopping motion for highly paid high performance athletes that could cause injuries or wear and tear on knees and joints, OR B) the athlete to slow down, be less dynamic and more in control of the their speed and mass. Since they don't want B and A can be a dollar and cents issue out of leagues and owners pockets, they came up with a rule change that eliminates both and actually increases the speed, movement and explosiveness of offensive players.

When they sell it to youth levels and club programs they talk about more natural stopping movements at pace, but what they mean is "we want the game the played so fast by giants we don't want them to slow down or risk hurting themselves needing complicated body movements",

You speak as if the NBA just changed the rule last season. This has been the rule, there is no new disadvantage all of a sudden.

Who cares what the NBA or FIBA allow unless you are working a game under the respective rule set. Regardless, one thing I will not care about is whether or not it is "fair" to the defense. All the players on the court play both offense and defense, so all players on the court are subject to the exact same advantages and disadvantages of the rule.

Who is everybody in the world? The NCAA and NFHS make up a good chunk of the world of basketball. You state this as if the NCAA and NFHS are some small sub-section of basketball.

And Kyrie Irving owns dual American/Australian citizenship, but grew up in America. Pretty big stretch (to the point of being untrue) to say he is a non-American player.

In your link, there were only a 108 players in the NBA from other countries. That is not half of the league and not even a third of the league. If you were paying attention, I actually stated this fact earlier.

Secondly this game was played under NCAA Rules.

And Finally I am happy you work FIBA games, but if this site was dependant on officials that work FIBA to support this site, then we would hardly ever have a discussion as the vast majority of those here or games we see are under rules from places in the United States and that includes NBA, NF and NCAA Rules. And there are a pretty significant amount of basketball being played around this country that play under those rules sets. My state alone has over 700 schools that participate in basketball at multiple levels. Illinois is not even close to the biggest state in the Union so that clearly means there are many, many more players that make up of the world's best players that are playing under a rule outside of FIBA. So they must be adapting well to not playing in FIBA rules to get to the NBA. And that of course is not a problem as I would bet almost all the officials in the NBA are also from this country and usually they started working some high school ball somewhere also. ;)

Peace

And what is also funny is that many of the players that are from other countries, played ball in the United States under other NF or NCAA rules. So even if you have a player that might technically be from another country, they played their college ball if in the United States.

Also for the record, every NBA All-Star Starter except one was from this country. There were only 3 total All-Stars in that were from other countries and did not play high school ball in the United States. So whatever the rules are in the NCAA or NF, must not be hurting them much.

Peace

Actually, it's only a PC foul if the defensive player already has LGP. If the defensive player runs in front of the offensive player, does not obtain LGP, and gets run over, this is a blocking foul (without considering flagrant contact by the offense).

Lets get back on track. I am not saying the best players in the world aren't in the US, I'm not saying FIBA/NBA rule is superior. As the USA, you can claim the best players and that they play primarily under the rule sets mentioned. I'm not trying to say Kyrie is Australian or played international rules. Just pointing out that 1/3 of the best of the best in the world are not US players. I don't control who frequents this website but am also willing to conceed that the lions share only need to talk about or worry about NFHS/NCAA interps.

Here are the only 2 points I was trying to illustrate:

1) Regardless of rule set, the claim was people didn't want it called. I was simply pointing out that other rule sets - NBA a while ago - and FIBA this past year have adjusted the language of their rules so that the moves they want allowed are not travels. The NFHS and NCAA rule sets still have it as a travel although "people" do not call it that way. Expectation is that to move up, get high level games, you will call it differently than or in spite of the rule set.

2) In response to the idea that no one wants it called a travel. 30+ million people in the US play basketball. 450 million people world play basketball. So as of Oct. 2017 (when FIBA rule changes were implemented for competition) 420 million people can have their travels called by the rules and can still have your spin moves and three steps in transition.

And people complain all the time that traveling is not called in the NBA. So I would not base much off of this play. There was a play by James Harden the other day that has gone around social media that clearly was a travel and the people were asking to be called.

This is not soccer. This is not a sport the players from the US do not dominate at every imaginable level. So it is honestly irrelevant who does or does not want something called from around the world when the world is not as good at that sport. And I had a few examples during the tournament of plays where a spin was called at the NCAA level.

Peace

This is not practical at all. In most cases a defender hit squarely in the torso usually has their right to their spot, the exception would be in block charge scenario where a secondary defender is sliding over and the torso is ahead of the feet. Secondly In a spin move an offensive player is spinning away from a defender so if said defender was already there LGP has already been established.

You are making stuff up that doesn't exist. LGP only matters in block/charge scenarios. LGP is not a requirement for a defender to have a legal right to a space on the group. The foul call may be the difference between a PC or a generic foul on the offense, but the adjudication and penalty is the same. You are splitting a hair that doesn't exist nor needs splitting IMO.

I specifically identified a situation where the defensive player was moving and had not established LGP.

And this is my point for bringing it up. The NBA and new FIBA rules make it much easier for the ball-handler to "beat" the defense by taking extra steps.

That is an assumption that is not always true.

As I stated in my previous post and above, NBA and FIBA have given the offense an advantage by allowing extra steps with no offsetting change for the defense.

And when the opposing team gets the ball, they can take advantage of the same rule to beat the defense. It's what the respective leagues/governing bodies have decided they want. And if you are officiating one of those games, adjudicate the plays accordingly.

Beautifully put. Precisely.

After watching the first video more, I do think it should have been called. I'm not a fan of calling spin moves too tight even though technically some are violations but I guess it's trying to figure out which ones to call or pass on and I think watching these videos help.

This is a beautiful spin move by Lebron. The gray area are the spin moves between the first video posted and Lebron's. The college one is not a blatant travel unless you slow it down and I don't fault the refs at all for missing it.

LeBron turns on the spin cycle - ESPN Video - ESPN

Jeff,

I wanted to get your take on this play. Do you think this is a travel? And would it be called? I had a very similar play this summer at one of my summer camps in Illinois. I called the travel, and then 2 separate assignors told me I was wrong and that we shouldn't penalized the offense for making an athletic play. This play is never called in any games that I see, mainly underclass, even though it is pretty well determined it is a travel almost 100% of the time.

If you look at the comments I made in this thread, my position is rather clear what I think of this play.

And I cannot speak for what assignors in every situation want. I know what I am calling and I would rather call this a travel, then ignore and award the player with a foul which often happens around the basket. This was not even a good spin move either that might be difficult to identify. This looked bad live to me.

Underclass games (and varsity games) get a lot of travels that never actually happen. So this not being called properly would not be a surprise to me.

Peace

Because this is an NCAA game, I would have a travel, because the pivot foot is moved after it is established before the ball handler shot. If it were an NBA or FIBA game, I would pass.

Do you mean the pivot foot was lifted and replaced?

He also did not execute the beginning of his spin move cleanly. He hopped on his pivot once and then spun, at the end of which he replanted his pivot foot.

Yes. The pivot foot was picked up and replaced before the ball was released on the shot.

Varsity basketball is the highest level I work, but I'm calling this a travel every time I catch it. The moment I'm told to stop calling it I will, but it is being called more the last couple of years (Correctly in my opinion) than it was previously.

I agree with you on this. It is a travel and it's really not that hard to see. Nobody has told me not to call it, BUT nobody else is calling it. As a result I have cut back dramatically on the number of travels that I have called in the last couple of years. Consistency is everything and it's hard to blame the players and coaches for being upset when "He's been making that move all year and it hasn't been called."


But I see traveling is a POE in the books AGAIN this year. Also, our study guide had a couple of questions along the lines of: A1 catches the ball with his left foot on the floor. He goes forward with a one, two action before releasing the ball on a shot...….. (or something like that). Somebody wants this called, but it has been very slow to trickle down. I'm hoping either the trend will reverse itself or they will rewrite the rule:


A player, before releasing a try, may spin, hop, Euro, or whatever. As long as this is smoothly done, it shall be a legal play.

Here's my opinion on this, that I don't think I've seen anyone bring up. This isn't a typical spin move. the issue on a normal spin is when does the player gather the ball. if close, you assume he HASN'T gathered it with the foot down and coming up, so that the foot that comes down just after the gather is the pivot foot. It's not unlike seeing the gather on many moves as being completed after that last foot is just off the floor. If you call it close on this, you'll never advance in leagues that are good bball. I was always told don't call travels on plays like this when observers have to think about whether it is a travel or not. Give the benefit of the doubt to the ballhandler.

In this case, it's different, because there is an extra step in there clearly WAY AFTER he has gathered the ball, and then that foot is lifted and he comes down with each foot AGAIN. This was clearly a travel, poor footwork. But it's because this wasn't a typical spin move.