I Hate Jump Balls ...
 

Jumpers A1 and B1 for jump ball to start the game. A1 taps ball, before the jump ball ends, jumper B1 catches the ball. Violation on jumper B1 for catching the ball before the jump ball ends. Team A gets the ball for a throwin closest to the violation. Team A also gets the next arrow because B1's catch was a possession, an illegal possession, but nevertheless a possession.

When a jumper catches the ball before the jump ball ends, his team loses the ball and loses the arrow.

Is this correct?

C'mon Billy ....You can do it !!!!!
 

Answer your own thread with about 8 posts....don't forget it is all about volume !!!! Your the best at it !!!!

It used to be.


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Jump ball never ended because B1 violated. I would not think you can have possession of the ball while violating. Team A gets the throw-in and team B gets the arrow. But waiting for bob to confirm.

No. I believe Case Book play 6.4.1C covers this: 6.4.1 SITUATION C: Following the jump between A1 and B1 to start the first quarter, the jump ball: (d) is caught by A1. RULING: (d), Team B will have a throw-in because of the violation and the arrow for the alternating-possession will be pointed towards Team A’s basket. (4-12-1; 4-28-1)

Billy's post used to be the rule. Can't remember how many years ago this rule changed.


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Violators get the arrow.

The Rules Aren't Difficult To Learn, The Rule Changes Are ...
 

Nice citation ZonaZebra. Thanks.

That's why I asked. Anybody know when, and why, it changed?

I Didn't Just Dream It ...
 

Maybe 2004-05 (when 6.4.1 SITUATION C appears in the casebook for the first time)?

So, at one time the rule was lose the ball and lose the arrow? I didn't just dream it?

Both Old As Dirt ...
 

I believe that you're confusing me with Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, but in BM's play, it was B1 who caught the ball. That might be completely different.

And, the case appeared as an interp in 2002-2003:

SITUATION 11: During the jump ball to start the game, jumper A1 catches the ball prior to the ball touching the floor or a non-jumper. RULING: A violation by A1. Team B is awarded a throw-in at the nearest spot due to the violation, which constitutes the first possession. The arrow is pointed toward Team A's basket when a player from Team B has the ball at his/her disposal for the throw-in. (4-12-1; 6-3-1; 6-4-7c)

2002-2003 ... ...
 

I would generally agree with that but the interp and the case play are the same.

Reading Is Fundamental ...
 

Sorry. My mistake, I just got home from work after a hectic commute through our third nor'easter in two weeks.

bob jenkin's citation pushes the change (if there ever was a change) back to 2002-2003.

Is there anyone out there who can help me prove that I wasn't dreaming the earlier interpretation (that the interpretation at one time was lose the ball and lose the arrow)? Am I losing my mind?

You are correct that this *was* the rule. You'll have to wait until MTD gets up from his nap for "proof."

See, I Told You I Wasn't Going Crazy ...
 

Thank you. "Always listen to bob" is proof enough. Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. doesn't have to make the trip up to his cold attic library.

Billy:

I am arriving late to the party.

The NCAA Men's Rules Committee adopted the AP Arrow Rule first for the 1981-82 season. When the NCAA Women's Rules Committee was created for the 1983-84 season, it included the Men's AP Arrow Rule in its Rules. And the NFHS Rules Committee adopted the AP Arrow Rule starting with the 1985-86 season. The Rule and the Casebook/Approved Rulings was the same for all three Committees.

The Play (not the Ruling, that is another story that I will tell below) that you have described has been in the NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's Casebook/Approved Rulings since the AP Procedure was adopted with the only difference is in the Casebook Play/Approved Rulings it is A1 that commits the JB Violation, not your B1. And I ill stay with your B1 committing the JB Violation.


I) When the AP Rule was first adopted the Ruling that you described in your Play would have been correct : With the order of the play being 1) B1 establishes PC and TC, thereby Setting the AP Arrow toward's Team A's Basket and then 2) B1 committing a Jump Ball Violation resulting in the Ball being awarded to Team A for a Designated Spot Throw-in nearest the Spot of the Violation. This was the Ruling for NFHS and NCAA Men's and Women's until the 1993-94 season.


II) Then, starting with the 1993-94 season, the NCAA Men's and Women's Committees changed its Ruling to eliminate (1) because the Committees stated it that B1 illegally caught the Ball, therefore B1's illegally catching the Ball did not start the AP Procedure, and instead the Committees went straight to (2) but with a twist: the Ball would be awarded to Team A for a Designated Spot Throw-in nearest the Spot of the Violation but instead of Setting the AP Arrow toward Team B's Basket when the Ball was placed at the Disposal of Team A (as per Rule for and Violation or Common Foul before the Bonus is in effect), the AP Arrow would not be Set toward's Team B's Basket until Team A's Throw-in had ended.

The NCAA Men's/Women's Ruling was an Unannounced Changed (more about that later). Sometime in the very early part of the 21st Century but no later that the 2002-03 season, they tweaked, in an Unannounced Change, the Ruling so that when the AP Arrow was Set it conformed to the Rule regarding JB Violations.


III) The NFHS Rules Committee kept the original Ruling until the 2002-03 season, when it adopted the NCAA Men's and Women's Ruling, so that all three Rules Codes are once again the same.

MTD, Sr.

Everything You Always Wanted To Know About The Jumper ...
 

... catching the jump ball, but were afraid to ask (with apologies to Woody Allen).

So, Multiple Sports, how's that for volume? As much as I hate to say it, always listen to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. When it comes to rules history, he's the man.

Thanks to all those who set me straight. When the play happened last night in a state quarterfinal game, I remembered the old ruling, but thought that there was a newer interpretation, I just couldn't come up with a definitive timeline.

I've always said, for us veterans, it's not learning the rules that's difficult, it's remembering the rule changes, and keeping them straight.