Post Game Feedback thoughts
 

So had this feedback given to me on Friday and I've spent some time chewing on it over the course of the weekend. Wanted to get the board's thoughts.

Friday night game (BV 3 man crew) I ended up in front of visiting team coach, who was frustrated most of the night, with about a minute left in the game says some magic words that earned himself a T. Game at that time was a 15+ point game and he was losing.

In the locker room post-game the R on the game offered some feedback. He indicated at that point in the game given the visiting coach was losing big, playing badly, that barring some truly demonstrative action the whole gym could see would be to pass on the T. Reason being is no need to rub salt in the wound and possibly save it for another time you have the coach. The R is a very good official and has officiated several 6A final games (highest level in our state). It wasn't a criticism by any means but just a line of thinking for me to consider.

At the post-game watering hole i asked a different official who I often bounce stuff off on and he agreed, but noted it was always situational. His logic was he uses a T as a tool, not a weapon, and he wouldn't validate the coaches gripes in that situation by giving him one. He also knew of the coaches antics from earlier in the season and felt the T was probably warranted based his history with the team, how he knows I call the game and deal with coaches.

The question I have the board is do you agree with this line of thinking? Not necessarily looking for whether the T is warranted as is often discussed here everyone has a different threshold. What I'm curious about is the theory to consider not giving a coach in that situation to avoid the 'salt in the wound'.

As I thought this weekend about this feedback I think there may be some validity to this feedback, but not necessarily for this game. For example, coach received a bench warning in the 3Q for an asinine comment to me and his bench had been more vocal that it should have been in the 2H. It died down after the bench warning or at least while I was near it for the rest of the game. He had been borderline for most of the game which prompted the warning and his players had been pretty undisciplined (mirrored the coach IMO) as I ended up giving a T to one of his players earlier in the game.

The T was just for a comment that only I was going to hear. It wasn't a goofball action or words the whole gym could hear.

I could see myself passing on the T if I hadn't heard anything from the bench prior to the late game comment (and I've done this in the past), but in this case, given what preceded in the game, is why I called it. Any thoughts with the feedback? Yea or nay? Situational? Just curious about everyone's thoughts...

IMHO there is no “right” answer to this, just different approaches. And in the different approaches, the details matter.

You didn’t tell us what he actually said. I think you can pass on some borderline stuff, but that doesn’t mean you let him say whatever he wants—there are still lines. You said he used “Magic words.” That suggests to me that he made an overly personal comment. For me, unless I can legitimately pretend I didn’t hear it, I don’t think it should be ignored. So if he said the kinds of things I think of are implying, I think the T was probably the better choice.

(From a soccer ref and basketball dad.)

I agree a lot with So Cal, but to answer your question in general, yes, I tend to give a coach who is taking a thumping a little more leash than usual. Now with that said, this is typically in the circumstance where I can tell his anger is being misplaced, and he is really just frustrated. If I'm able to lend an ear for him to vent, sometimes that's all they really need. But as has been stated, totally situational.

Look at it this way...

It's better that he got the technical foul in a game he had no shot of winning anyway, and in doing so is taught a lesson about what is and isn't acceptable when speaking to or dealing with officials, than if you or another official had to deal with him in a close game where a technical foul may very well decide the outcome.

I like to think about how my actions affect my partners, and the officials those coaches and players encounter later. Like making sure to enforce the fashion police rules so future officials don't have to hear "well the ref in the last game allowed us to wear red undershirts with our home whites".

I agree with this, but just understand that there is a line that should not be crossed no matter what the score of the game is. Which I think is what frezer meant by the "totally situational" thing.

Technical fouls never decide the outcome of a game. As was discussed last week, games are decided by all the shots and fouls and turnovers, etc. in all 32 minutes.

Maybe a good opportunity to issue a book warning. It addresses the behavior, but doesn't "rub salt in the wound".

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In the grand scheme of things... You're right. I should have clarified that comment better.

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Already gave one.

Okay, nevermind.

If he's been warned already and he said something that is really out of line, then he's earned it in my opinion, no matter what the time and score.

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Need more details man, what exactly did he say both times to earn the warning and later tech?

The feedback you received is useful advice, but, as you already recognize, it's just an alternative, another technique in our refereeing repertoire, not an iron-clad rule to be applied in every situation.

On the first day of law school, you learn that the answer to every question is, "It depends." That is, the circumstances and facts are important.

So you T'd the coach and had already T'd one of his players. Were you also the one who issued the bench warning?

Not that there's anything wrong with all three, but where were your partners in this thing? Are they shrinking violets, totally out to lunch or the types of absentee partners who use the "I never let that stuff get to me" attitude as code for "I'm too much of a p***y to deal with unsporting behavior"?

In the first quarter I issued a delay of game to the home team for grabbing the ball after a basket, walking 3-4 steps, turning around and then rolling it back to the visiting team. Easy call.

For whatever reason the visiting team was fixated on the delay of game call in general for rest of the game.

In the 3Q I was administering a throw in right beside home team's bench. Visiting player is reaching over the line and before I give the ball to the home team I step in and caution him to not reach over the line. He takes a couple of steps back, but then proceeds to reach over the line after I bounced the ball to the thrower. I blow the whistle for the DOG warning. Visiting team coach then yells loud enough for the entire gym to hear "Come on man let them play basketball!!" Blow my whistle and administer the bench warning.

One of his players earns a T from me for clapping at me after I blow a foul on his teammate in the 4Q. Easy call.

What earned the coaches T was with about a minute left, white team had just scored. Home team player was in the air as the ball was coming through the net and as he was heading down the ball bounced up, hit him in the chest and rolled out of bounds towards the baseline. Player couldn't avoid hitting the ball after it went through etc...definitely not an DOG.

Coach asks as I'm running by, going into the C position, why it wasn't a DOG (he had asked for the DOG a couple times prior to this) and I explain it as he didn't intentionally hit it and therefore it wasn't a penalty. Coach then says to me "Ahh you don't know what it is!" Emphasis added for the tone in which I heard it.

Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Didn't notice it was visitor and home in the two examples.

I don't think that's enough for me to drag the game out any longer. I probably would've just said to him "Knock it off."

Thanks for the info! I would have handled it the same way you did. I'm not a fan of ignoring the coaches statement at the end. They need to learn they don't get free shots at us, and the only way to do that is calling the T. I understand the position of your Referee, but that's an easy one IMO. What we permit, we promote.

I can only speak for myself and the way I would have handled it...I would have looked at the Coach and replied "Well one of us certainly doesn't understand that rule!" and moved on down the court...

But that's just me and the reputation I built over 25+ years in the area.

There is a skill and lessons to be learned when learning to win and similar in learning how to lose. When we allow bad behavior to happen just because a team is losing, how is that beneficial to anyone involved in that game. What is it teaching the players, the fans, anyone? If the V coach said enough in your mind to earn a T then give it, especially in a game that is already virtually decided.

If it’s T worthy, hit it! Would anyone ignore it after the game if the coach approached you and cussed you bc they lost? It shouldn’t matter time and score. Coach needs to understand he doesn’t need to act that way.


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There is a guy I work with in our association, who never likes to give Ts or even Intentional Fouls for that matter. My theory is that he's worried about his "rating." A few weeks ago, I worked him in a game where we gave a Coach's Warning. After the game, he said to me, "Well I am glad you didn't whack him at the end of the game when he yelled at you for that call." I said, "why's that?" "Well it would have been just pouring salt in the wound and we didn't need to hurt ourselves out there."

Maybe your R was truly giving you some advice or maybe he had his own motivations.

Like it or not, if you made that call on the court, you had your reasons. I like that old adage, "you'll remember the T you didn't give." Don't overthink this one.

You must live in South Dakota.

Good point. Our assignor sent a memo just this week saying he wants to be informed of all technicals (player or coach). Regardless of who calls them, he wants the reports to be issued by the Referee.

In some discussions with fellow officials, things like "that's why I never call any" came up, which is an unfortunate side effect. So maybe the R in the OP or the R in packersowner's post were motivated to let unsporting behavior slide by not wanting to have to explain anything to anyone?

I don't get overly wrapped around the axle about Ts. I don't believe they're just another foul but we have to draw a line and he crossed yours. The fact that you had warned him and he continued to harp about this very topic a couple more times tells me this was justified.

For me personally, it depends on how I take that comment. I very well might have just laughed at him and kept running. Hard for me to say not being there.

Sometimes I think automatic suspension rules foster this kind of thinking too.

"I didn't want to give him a second T. What he said was worse than what he said to get the first, but it wasn't enough to deserve two additional games."

It is situational. I had one game where I passed on a late T (my assigner was observing and said we did the right thing), another where I did not. As I said, it depends.

I called 3 technical fouls in each of the last 2 seasons.

(I have none this year, but I've only worked 13 games due to a knee injury.)

In each of those seasons, one of those technicals were with under 10 seconds left on the clock. I do not believe in letting coaches have free shots, in general.

Yes, there are exceptions, but don't take your team losing out on me.

As others have said its all situational/contextual and HTBT to offer a real view on what any of us would have done.

I will say this though. Sometimes a T is the best tool. Sometimes ignoring comments and letting the coach look like an azz by himself is the best tool, sometimes a comment back subtly and sternly letting the coach know how you will and wont be addressed is the best tool.

In the situation you described I would not have T'd the coach for that comment. Which isnt to suggest your T was unwarranted. Just not how I would have handled it.

I do sometimes take time and score into consideration when calling some Ts. Generally, I will pass on a T that I may have otherwise had, to a coach getting blown out late in the game.

For me, I really don't care about rubbing salt in the wound as much as I just don't think it does anything for the game. And sometimes the losing coach is just trying to further a victim narrative and actually want a T.

I find that there is often more strength shown in ignoring a lot of that and the coach quickly goes back to sulking about how poor his players and coaching have been that night.

We have to report all T's to our assignors, but its usually the person who called it. Our assignor wants this done for preventative purposes. He doesn't want a narrative or opinions about it. Something like:

"Technical on White #45, unsportsmanlike. Taunting opponent after a dunk"

That way if he gets a call the next day, he at least, is in the know. I can't recall a single technical in my career where I have been second guessed by the assignor. He might not always agree based on his own view of the world, but he has always stood behind us.

I really appreciate the topic and all the thoughts.

T's are not fun. The book helps us with some pretty obvious ones.

I have had a lot tell me to give a sarcastic remark back at him. Also do not like how people are behaving nationally at games and sending a message is also good.

In the end I think we all get better at finding that grey area and dishing out T's that feel good. Always those who are too black and white.

Thanks for all the opinions and stories. It helps me with my line and I get more comfortable every day with the insights I get here. Wish we had more people who knew how awesome this site is.