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-   -   Sportsmanship problems in AZ (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103503-sportsmanship-problems-az.html)

stripes Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:06am

Sportsmanship problems in AZ
 
This problem will continue to get worse until spectators are held accountable for their actions.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...hip/320823002/

Jimmie24 Tue Feb 13, 2018 01:03pm

https://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...ght/331309002/

Seems like some consequences are finally coming.

LRZ Tue Feb 13, 2018 02:00pm

Kudos to the Higley AD for not making excuses or equivocating, but being a stand-up administrator.

ballgame99 Tue Feb 13, 2018 02:34pm

In my experience, the schools that have unsportsmanlike fans, have unsportsmanlike coaches, and in turn unsportsmanlike players. School administrators need to address this behavior sooner rather than later. If you are an AD and your head coach is acting like a fool and picking up T's, that behavior needs to be addressed. The players and fans feed off that negative energy from the coach. There are obviously exceptions, but this seems to be true more often than not. Individual fans that are being verbally abusive to officials need to be addressed by administrators before I have to stop the game and ask you to do so.

packersowner Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:55pm

Did anyone watch the videos embedded in the story?

It appears AZ only uses 2 person crews?

Why are there cameras underneath the basket or within the free throw area extended?

The boys game that has all of the highlights looks like a track meet. There were times where the trail didn't even appear to cross 1/2 court.

Anyone here from AZ that can comment?

bob jenkins Wed Feb 14, 2018 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 1017061)
Why are there cameras underneath the basket or within the free throw area extended?

Is that disallowed for some reason?

stripes Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 1017061)
Did anyone watch the videos embedded in the story?

It appears AZ only uses 2 person crews?

Why are there cameras underneath the basket or within the free throw area extended?

The boys game that has all of the highlights looks like a track meet. There were times where the trail didn't even appear to cross 1/2 court.

Anyone here from AZ that can comment?

AZ does use 2 whistles...They are experimenting with 3 in the state tournament this year with the hopes of moving to 3 next season.

AIA (governing body) has asked officials to make sure that cameras are not in the FT area extended...obviously not uniformly enforced.

I have worked several track meet games (not an excuse to not cross halfcourt IMO). Many times teams will score 80+ and it is just fast break basketball reminiscent of LMU under Paul Westhead. Highest score I had was 107 in regulation (with a running clock in the 4th quarter). We logged a few miles that day.

stripes Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 1017061)
Did anyone watch the videos embedded in the story?

It appears AZ only uses 2 person crews?

Why are there cameras underneath the basket or within the free throw area extended?

The boys game that has all of the highlights looks like a track meet. There were times where the trail didn't even appear to cross 1/2 court.

Anyone here from AZ that can comment?

AZ does use 2 whistles...They are experimenting with 3 in the state tournament this year with the hopes of moving to 3 next season.

AIA (governing body) has asked officials to make sure that cameras are not in the FT area extended...obviously not uniformly enforced.

I have worked several track meet games. Many times teams will score 80+ and it is just fast break basketball reminiscent of LMU under Paul Westhead. Highest score I had was 107 in regulation (with a running clock in the 4th quarter). We logged a few miles that day.

Jimmie24 Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 1017061)
Did anyone watch the videos embedded in the story?

It appears AZ only uses 2 person crews?

Why are there cameras underneath the basket or within the free throw area extended?

The boys game that has all of the highlights looks like a track meet. There were times where the trail didn't even appear to cross 1/2 court.

Anyone here from AZ that can comment?

Arizona is 2 person. About 10 years ago we used to do 3 person in the playoffs. That went away and has been 2 person since. This year we are going back to 3 for some playoff games and are hoping to push it into the regular season.

Camera's have been told to be removed from free throw area extended, as well as anyone else. Obviously it isn't enforced by all crews.

Some of the worst fans that I have had this year, have a coach who doesn't yell at the officials much. He has in the past, but this year he has either given up on the team or learned to accept the officiating that he has that night.

Camron Rust Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stripes (Post 1017082)
AZ does use 2 whistles...They are experimenting with 3 in the state tournament this year with the hopes of moving to 3 next season.

AIA (governing body) has asked officials to make sure that cameras are not in the FT area extended...obviously not uniformly enforced.

I have worked several track meet games. Many times teams will score 80+ and it is just fast break basketball reminiscent of LMU under Paul Westhead. Highest score I had was 107 in regulation (with a running clock in the 4th quarter). We logged a few miles that day.

As a caution from Oregon, which switched to 3-person recently, there will be problems if everything switches at once....even larger chunks. You're not going to have enough people with 3-person experience to transition smoothly. You'll have a lot of crews with little to no 3-person experience and they're going to struggle for a while...calls with be missed and 3-person will appear to many coaches/ADs to be worse than 2-person. We tried to move ALL varsity officials into 3-person all at once. There were (and continue to be) a lot that just are not getting it....we brought it in too fast and too broadly. You're going to have a lot of veteran officials that don't adapt to it very well, if at all.


If I were to recommend a transition plan, I'd suggest you figure out how many people have solid 3-person experience (essentially your college officials) and limit the number of games that will be 3-person on any given night to no more than about 60-70% of that for the first year so you can have one of those (or two on big games) on every 3-person game...as the R.

Select U1's that have some 3-person experience, but may not have a lot (newer college officials perhaps). This allows you to introduce 3 person to 1 completely green official per game and having others that can lead them.

Limit the number of officials new to 3-person to about the same number as those with solid experience. Once you go 1-2 years with that, the people that were U1's will be ready to be R's with 3-person and many of those officials new to 3-person will have enough to be the U1 on most 3-person crews and even be the R on some. You can then add another large group of officials.


I think that by phasing it in, you'll be able to better keep the quality high and keep your schools/coaches from revolting.

Rich Wed Feb 14, 2018 01:08pm

Those videos show officials walking in the backcourt with the ball heading to the front court.

Frankly, some of these videos are not good examples of officials working hard or giving a crap.

Rich Wed Feb 14, 2018 01:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1017087)
As a caution from Oregon, which switched to 3-person recently, there will be problems if everything switches at once....even larger chunks. You're not going to have enough people with 3-person experience to transition smoothly. You'll have a lot of crews with little to no 3-person experience and they're going to struggle for a while...calls with be missed and 3-person will appear to many coaches/ADs to be worse than 2-person. We tried to move ALL varsity officials into 3-person all at once. There were (and continue to be) a lot that just are not getting it....we brought it in too fast and too broadly. You're going to have a lot of veteran officials that don't adapt to it very well, if at all.


If I were to recommend a transition plan, I'd suggest you figure out how many people have solid 3-person experience (essentially your college officials) and limit the number of games that will be 3-person on any given night to no more than about 60-70% of that for the first year so you can have one of those (or two on big games) on every 3-person game...as the R.

Select U1's that have some 3-person experience, but may not have a lot (newer college officials perhaps). This allows you to introduce 3 person to 1 completely green official per game and having others that can lead them.

Limit the number of officials new to 3-person to about the same number as those with solid experience. Once you go 1-2 years with that, the people that were U1's will be ready to be R's with 3-person and many of those officials new to 3-person will have enough to be the U1 on most 3-person crews and even be the R on some. You can then add another large group of officials.


I think that by phasing it in, you'll be able to better keep the quality high and keep your schools/coaches from revolting.

I also think that schools/conferences need to realize that there will be growing pains.

Personally, I would prefer making the change all at once at the varsity level and have considerable training prior to and during the transition -- and don't let the schools complain too loudly for a few years.

Why? If I wasn't in that group of officials getting to work the bigger games that I might have worked for a while because I wasn't in the "chosen" group, I might simply walk away.

I had a few veteran but marginal officials decide it wasn't worth it to learn 3-person and asked if we could just stay two and pay more -- those people I was happy, in the end, to see retire or drop back to local JV/FR games.

sdoebler Wed Feb 14, 2018 01:47pm

Aren't most camps 3 person mechanics? I have never been to camp targeted at varsity level or above that wasn't 3-person. The only camps that I have seen run 2-person mechanics are for brand new officials.

Camron Rust Wed Feb 14, 2018 02:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1017090)
I also think that schools/conferences need to realize that there will be growing pains.

Personally, I would prefer making the change all at once at the varsity level and have considerable training prior to and during the transition -- and don't let the schools complain too loudly for a few years.

Why? If I wasn't in that group of officials getting to work the bigger games that I might have worked for a while because I wasn't in the "chosen" group, I might simply walk away.

In our case, the transition was largely done by conferences. There were still plenty of big games in the 2-person conferences.

One of our conferences that went 3 person the first year went back to 2 the 2nd year because they saw too many sub par officials added to their games. They felt they had better quality with 2 than 3. The observed improvement from the system wasn't enough to overcome the addition of an official that may have never been on their games in the past. That was because we threw too many people into 3-person at once. The new official wasn't ready or accustomed to that level of ball and had no 3-person background at all. With limited experience form the other 2, that made for a situation where 3-person didn't look that good on a lot of nights.

packersowner Wed Feb 14, 2018 04:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1017067)
Is that disallowed for some reason?

NFHS 1-20
Non-playing personnel, e.g., spirit participants, media, shall remain outside of the playing area during a 30-second or less time-out during the game. Non-playing personnel shall stand outside the free throw lane lines extended toward the sidelines throughout the game.

The reason I asked is that it seemed like several times players were more concerned with creating their YouTube moments on camera after dunks, layups, etc. Questioned whether this led to some of the issues.


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