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-   -   Player does not sit a tick...or does he? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103403-player-does-not-sit-tick-does-he.html)

bucky Wed Jan 24, 2018 01:35am

Player does not sit a tick...or does he?
 
A scoreboard clock displays tenths of a second only when the time is under 1 minute. With 4:23 on the clock, A2 subs into the game for A1. A2, an inbounder, is heavily guarded by B1. A2 throws the ball but it is immediately batted backwards by B1, hitting A2, who is still out of bounds. When the ball hit B1, the administering official chopped his arm for the clock to start and the timer started the clock. When the ball hit A2, the same official raised his hand to stop the clock and the timer stopped the clock. All of this action happened very fast and the clock still read 4:23. A1 reports to the table and wants to enter the game. The official sees that no time ran and disallows the sub. The timer's display, which always includes tenths of a second, does indeed indicate that some time ran. The timer provides the official with the information.

Allow the sub based on the timer's clock/info?

Allow the sub based on logic of some time must have transpired even though game clock did not change?

Disallow sub based on scoreboard clock not changing?

Other?

Any rule/case out there regarding this?

Camron Rust Wed Jan 24, 2018 03:53am

The player can come in. The rule actually says they sub can come in only after the clock has properly started. It doesn't say that that it must run enough to register that some time had elapsed.

Time was chopped in on the touch....that is all that it takes.

bob jenkins Wed Jan 24, 2018 07:54am

Even if the timer didn't physically turn the clock on/off, allow the sub in.

Treat the rule as "the clock started or should have started"

AremRed Wed Jan 24, 2018 09:33am

They should really change the rule to when the ball becomes live (preferable), or perhaps if there is a turnover. Imagine an offensive foul during a throw-in when no time runs off the clock. Coach now wants his big guy in for offense/defense, but no subs are allowed.

frezer11 Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1015330)
They should really change the rule to when the ball becomes live (preferable), or perhaps if there is a turnover. Imagine an offensive foul during a throw-in when no time runs off the clock. Coach now wants his big guy in for offense/defense, but no subs are allowed.

I don't have my rule book handy today, am I correct in saying that a timeout does NOT buy his way in either? That's only an injury situation correct?

Also, while I'm thinking about it, what about if team B had been called for a technical foul at some point. Could Team A coach sub that kid in now to shoot the shots?

bob jenkins Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:49am

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1015337)
I don't have my rule book handy today, am I correct in saying that a timeout does NOT buy his way in either? That's only an injury situation correct?

Also, while I'm thinking about it, what about if team B had been called for a technical foul at some point. Could Team A coach sub that kid in now to shoot the shots?

Yes.

No.

Raymond Wed Jan 24, 2018 02:04pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1015311)
A scoreboard clock displays tenths of a second only when the time is under 1 minute. With 4:23 on the clock, A2 subs into the game for A1. A2, an inbounder, is heavily guarded by B1. A2 throws the ball but it is immediately batted backwards by B1, hitting A2, who is still out of bounds. When the ball hit B1, the administering official chopped his arm for the clock to start and the timer started the clock. When the ball hit A2, the same official raised his hand to stop the clock and the timer stopped the clock. All of this action happened very fast and the clock still read 4:23. A1 reports to the table and wants to enter the game. The official sees that no time ran and disallows the sub. The timer's display, which always includes tenths of a second, does indeed indicate that some time ran. The timer provides the official with the information.

Allow the sub based on the timer's clock/info?

Allow the sub based on logic of some time must have transpired even though game clock did not change?

Disallow sub based on scoreboard clock not changing?

Other?

Any rule/case out there regarding this?

The clock legally starts upon B1's deflection. That is all that is needed to bring the A1 back into the game. Matters not what is displayed on the clock.

packersowner Wed Jan 24, 2018 02:18pm

Related question - sorry for hijacking.

If A2 goes to replaces A1, then B2 goes to replaces B1. While that is happening Coach A realizes its not his arrow and prefers to have a different team on the court for a defensive matchup. Can Coach A pull back A2 if he hasn't been beckoned into the game? If he has, then Coach A could replace A2 with A3, just that A1 couldn't come in at this point because he hasn't "sat a tick". Am I correct on this one? Meanwhile, Coach B is trying to figure out what to do with B2 :) I saw this happen a few weeks ago while watching a game and I was trying to decide what was actually allowed vs. the rule.

AremRed Wed Jan 24, 2018 02:25pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 1015374)
Related question - sorry for hijacking.

If A2 goes to replaces A1, then B2 goes to replaces B1. While that is happening Coach A realizes its not his arrow and prefers to have a different team on the court for a defensive matchup. Can Coach A pull back A2 if he hasn't been beckoned into the game? If he has, then Coach A could replace A2 with A3, just that A1 couldn't come in at this point because he hasn't "sat a tick". Am I correct on this one? Meanwhile, Coach B is trying to figure out what to do with B2 :) I saw this happen a few weeks ago while watching a game and I was trying to decide what was actually allowed vs. the rule.

Correct, you can always pull back a player. If you pull them back before the beckon then they don't have to sit a tick. If they have been beckoned then you can still pull them back but they would then have to sit until clock ran.

bucky Wed Jan 24, 2018 03:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1015379)
Correct, you can always pull back a player. If you pull them back before the beckon then they don't have to sit a tick. If they have been beckoned then you can still pull them back but they would then have to sit until clock ran.

Yes, in layman's terms for subs, one is never required to "play a tick", only requirement is to "sit a tick."

packersowner Wed Jan 24, 2018 03:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AremRed (Post 1015379)
Correct, you can always pull back a player. If you pull them back before the beckon then they don't have to sit a tick. If they have been beckoned then you can still pull them back but they would then have to sit until clock ran.

And in this case, a timeout can't buy your way back in, correct?

bucky Wed Jan 24, 2018 03:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raymond (Post 1015367)
The clock legally starts upon B1's deflection.

Just to further an extra thought....

More specifically, B1's legal deflection. Had B1 kicked the ball, then the official should not have chopped time, the clock should not have started (if it did then reset to previous time), and the sub (A1) could not enter.

frezer11 Wed Jan 24, 2018 04:41pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by packersowner (Post 1015392)
And in this case, a timeout can't buy your way back in, correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1015337)
I don't have my rule book handy today, am I correct in saying that a timeout does NOT buy his way in either? That's only an injury situation correct?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1015344)
Yes.

Correct, same situation I was curious about earlier.

BillyMac Wed Jan 24, 2018 05:27pm

Time for A Pop Quiz ...
 
Under what situation may a substitute legally enter the game without sitting a tick?

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exception) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

sdoebler Wed Jan 24, 2018 05:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1015417)
Under what situation may a substitute legally enter the game without sitting a tick?

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exception) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

Are there a list of exceptions? I had an interesting play where B2 committed a foul and the table informed us that it was his fifth foul and he was replaced. After shooting 1 of 2 free throws the table informed us that it was actually his fourth foul and he was not disqualified, and the coach put him back in. Is there a rule available that lets him enter the game as no time has run off the clock?

so cal lurker Wed Jan 24, 2018 06:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1015417)
Under what situation may a substitute legally enter the game without sitting a tick?

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exception) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

IIRC, if no other sub is available and a player can't continue. E.g., the team is down to 6 eligible players, the sub takes place, and before the "tick," a player is injured, blood is discovered on a player in the game, or a player fouls out or is ejected. The team doesn't have to play short.

BillyMac Wed Jan 24, 2018 06:44pm

I'm So Bright My Mother Calls Me Sunny ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 1015424)
IIRC, if no other sub is available and a player can't continue. E.g., the team is down to 6 eligible players, the sub takes place, and before the "tick," a player is injured, blood is discovered on a player in the game, or a player fouls out or is ejected. The team doesn't have to play short.

Bingo. Is there any other exception? I can't think of one, but there are a lot of really bright officials on the Forum who may come up with another exception.

BillyMac Wed Jan 24, 2018 06:50pm

Tick Tock ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1015422)
... B2 committed a foul and the table informed us that it was his fifth foul and he was replaced. After shooting 1 of 2 free throws the table informed us that it was actually his fourth foul and he was not disqualified ... Is there a rule available that lets him enter the game as no time has run off the clock?

Since he was replaced, I don't believe that he may reenter until he sits a tick.

Camron Rust Wed Jan 24, 2018 07:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdoebler (Post 1015422)
Are there a list of exceptions? I had an interesting play where B2 committed a foul and the table informed us that it was his fifth foul and he was replaced. After shooting 1 of 2 free throws the table informed us that it was actually his fourth foul and he was not disqualified, and the coach put him back in. Is there a rule available that lets him enter the game as no time has run off the clock?

This is a perfect time for 2-3.

The substitution wasn't a choice and was forced based on a scorekeeper error. I'm letting that player back in.

That scenario is not one considered by the normal expectations the rules are written for.

bucky Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:31am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1015426)
Since he was replaced, I don't believe that he may reenter until he sits a tick.

I have always allowed the player immediate reentry into the game when they were subbed out due to official/table error/miscommunication. I have had it twice this season in fact. Both times, table informed us it was the player's fifth foul when it actually wasn't.

BillyMac Thu Jan 25, 2018 06:55am

Two-Three ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1015427)
This is a perfect time for 2-3. The substitution wasn't a choice and was forced based on a scorekeeper error. I'm letting that player back in. That scenario is not one considered by the normal expectations the rules are written for.

Agree on two statements, that it's not a normal exception, and to let the player reenter under 2-3 (and purpose and intent).

BillyMac Thu Jan 25, 2018 06:58am

Table Crews, Can't Live With Them, Can't Live Without Them ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1015457)
I have had it twice this season in fact. Both times, table informed us it was the player's fifth foul when it actually wasn't.

Thirty-seven years and I've never had this happen.

Twice in a partial season? What kind of table crews are you working with?

sdoebler Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1015470)
Thirty-seven years and I've never had this happen.

Twice in a partial season? What kind of table crews are you working with?

That is the table not the crew I believe

bucky Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1015470)
Thirty-seven years and I've never had this happen.

Twice in a partial season? What kind of table crews are you working with?

Both situations involved home scorers that had inadvertently given the wrong player a foul based on similar numbers. Example: Foul was on A21 but foul was recorded on A12.

It did not involve inexperienced scorers, two-handed reporting, or errors by the officials. The visiting score book provided input and it was resolved. In both cases, it was fairly obvious what occurred and the home scorers admitted the mistakes. Those involved mostly laughed it off and everyone was understanding about allowing the players to return. Home scorers just had brain freezes.


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