Coaches Behavior
 

Is it me or has the behavior of coaches and players deteriorated this year. Here on the Left Coast, More Ts and ejections issued than the recent past.

Talking with some officials and they observed that some coaches behave better on a home game than the road because their bosses are in the stands and don't always travel with the team. :confused:

I think at the high school level, it is getting worse for some time. I think part of it is because we have a generation of kids that are not held accountable for a lot of things and the adults seem to be dealing with that generation blaming us/officials for things we would have never been even thought to be accused of before. When I was a player I could not even address the officials about anything. That is what the coach was for. But instead we have coaches that allow their players to say all kinds of things to us and if we as adults address them directly, we get "Well he is the captain" or "You should be able to talk to him" BS. And I think part of that is we have adults afraid to address their kids in a certain way because then they might have to deal with parents that feel their kids can do no wrong, so it often comes to their behavior as the coach to not address things they once would do without question. Often times the issues that I see are issues with players and their behavior. Coaches never seem to suggest their player did something wrong and it must be something about us that made us call the foul or penalize their players.

Peace

I have had the exact opposite experience this year. I've never had a season with coaches as calm as this year. Coaches have been cordial in every game I've worked this year, even in the tightly contested games. Maybe it's because I work in a small association and see the coaches on a regular basis.

Where on the "left coast" are you? In Washington, an ejection of a coach means suspension, and a second means the coach is done for the season. I believe the same applies for players...I have not heard of a single coach ejection in this area this season.

New 4-48 Works . . .
 

Statistically, the new 4-48 "Written Warning in the Book" has worked according to design in about 75% of the cases it has been justifiably employed thus far this season.
The number of
instances where it needs to be used is consistent with previous years here.

I think behavior is getting worse. The fix is to call more T's.

People see the NBA guys whining on every call then spouting off in the media about how they're "done" with the officials, and then they think they get to start acting up.

I've whacked more coaches this year than I have in quite a few seasons. Part of that is because I've stopped worrying about all the baggage that comes with a technical foul at the HS level and I just penalize the behavior. I'm not letting coaches coach me and I make that very clear to them. If they choose not to comply, they can suffer the consequences. All of my T's except one (where the coach ran on the court yelling and gesturing) were preceded by the official warning–the coaches didn't believe I had the guts to follow through, and they learned the hard way. All of my T's made my games better and quieter, even though some partners didn't necessarily care for them or tried to pin the blame on me by saying I need to be more "approachable." My response is normally along the lines of "you need to stop putting up with unsporting behavior that needs to be penalized."

I've long believed that not enough T's are called at the high school level and that behavior would get better if officials (and assigners) would stop stigmatizing them with an "avoid at all costs" mentality. One unique thing about South Carolina is that all varsity assignments come from the state office, so I don't have to answer to an assigner when I whack a coach (thankfully, no reports here for a single T). Not that that would necessarily change my trigger, but it is nice knowing I'm unlikely to get a phone call.

Ejections at the HS level are rare from what I can see. In SC it's a $300 fine and a 1-game suspension for a coach to get dumped, and the coaches are well aware of this. Of course, so are the officials who in some cases refuse to eject a coach because they'd "feel bad" if he had to pay $300 and sit out a game.

It's been a pretty calm season for me. Coaches, for the most part, have been on par with prior seasons. Gave one T to a coach for yelling at me...during a preseason jamboree. It was an easy one to call.

Had the same coach last night and he's been known to be emotional in a game. Last night his team blew a 14 point halftime lead and lost by 8. Never heard a word from him, even when I could tell the frustration was mounting for him, but any frustration stayed with his team and not the crew.

I would expect the behavior to somewhat worsen as the season goes along and closer it gets to playoffs, but I'll deal with it then. Like a prior poster I take a tougher line with conduct than some most, but seldom has a coach approached or crossed that line this year.

... those kids are gradually becoming coaches. Each season, as the old guard retires/moves on, they are being replaced by many in their late 20s/early 30s who were at least partially raised in the climate of which you speak.

I am (relatively) young in the scheme of things, and I'm starting to notice that I'm older and more experienced than many of the head coaches in our area; whereas when I started, there were many more longstanding (and generally, older) coaches who are dropping by the wayside just by natural attrition.

So yes, it has gotten worse and will continue.

The younger (20s/30s) coaches in my area are the ones that seem to act up the most.

I'm not sure if the coaches are getting better ( or worse ) at the high school level. I also work HS softball and soccer and I do notice that the non teachers seem to be more of a problem. We have a lot of non teachers especially in softball and they seem to want to argue everything and have very poor rule knowledge....

It's been more fan behavior for me. I've thrown out several fans this year, 2 in HS contests. In all cases they were making direct, personal comments to me and the ref crew. And somehow refs I talk to still think I shouldn't have done it cuz they didn't use profanity, they only made comments like "you're terrible", "you're cheating our girls", and "you should be ashamed of yourself". Sorry fan, I don't get paid enough to listen to that. In both cases I threw out the worst offender and no one said a word after that. Yet somehow I'm the bad guy.

You had fans thrown out for that??? Wow. You wouldn't last very long here if you can't ignore that...

It's funny, this is my first year as a HS b-ball referee, but I've been doing soccer (HS & club) for 20 years. I honestly can't believe how much better coaches and especially players are in b-ball games vs. soccer when it comes to dissent. Granted, I'm only doing JV/Freshman games, so perhaps Varsity is different. Sure, there are coaches that whine and complain, but it is nothing compared to soccer.

Fans are another story though; they're all bad. :)

5 T's
 

So far, I have called 5 technical fouls. 2 on players at the jv level. 2 on assistant coaches and 1 on a varsity HC.

Last season I called 3 and worked more games. I am only half way through my season.

The technical foul on the head coach was the most surprising one, he just laid into me 3 consecutive times down the floor and I got tired of listening to him. His last comment was "blow your whistle and call the foul", and I did exactly what he asked me to do.

His frustration came because his team was shooting about 20% from the floor and being out rebounded 3 to 1, that's not my fault.

Here’s the guy I’m talking about!

But no, I don’t throw fans out every time they say a negative comment. These were fans who went out of their way to directly confront me or a partner. They can boo all they want or bitch about the foul count, but once they get personal like that all bets are off. They don’t pay their $5 to just come and harass me all night.

I've had a good experience this year... very little whining from coaches or players. With means one of four possibilities: a) I've learned to tune it out better than in years past, b) the coaches and players are actually getting better, or c) I'm getting better and giving them less to complain about, d) the point-of-emphasis on sporting behavior from the state office is actually having an effect.

Probably some combination of the above, honestly.

I've given out one T this season, to a player who told me to "you need to make a damn call", so I did as she asked.

No coach Ts in any of my games... heck, we've only given out one bench warning so far.

Maybe I'm just lucky.

Kudos to you for doing the right thing.

For saying those things? You either need to grow a thicker skin or trim your elephant ears.

There's always an idiot in the crowd saying "that's terrible", among other things. Why give them the satisfaction by letting them know you not only hear them, but it also bothers you and throw them out. They are making themselves look like idiots and the rest of the crowd recognizes it too.

Usually I will just smile/laugh so that the idiot can see me. It really makes them mad because there is nothing they can do about it.

How are the statements that you listed personal? How do you know they were talking to you? Either way, I wouldn't call that personal. If we all felt the way you do, every time a fan says something we would call it personal.

Don't be that guy.

Is this common around the country? Maybe it's just here then, but I would get laughed at and then reprimanded if I tried to remove fans for this kind of nonsense. Only personal threats and/or profanity, or someone who is over the top beligerent is worthy of fan removal here. And we have game administration take care of it. We are not to directly interact with fans at all.

I was not there but I am going to give the guy the benefit of the doubt that there was some "over the top belligerent" behavior going on. ;)

If a fellow official felt the need to remove a fan then I am not going to ridicule him for it.

A lot of times when I hear officials tell fellow officials they need “thicker skin,” it’s code for “I don’t handle business when I need to and I let too much bad behavior go.”

Just awful that an official would make these recommendations.

I assign for 24 schools at the varsity level. I would back any official who had an idiot removed for any reason. Maybe if more people got thrown out, the behavior at these events would improve.

"Thicker skin" and "elephant ears" are phrases normally thrown out by coaches, not officials.

Bingo.

Normally I agree with you on most things, but this I just can't. Fans are not our problem most of the time. The phrases he had a problem with are white noise. They shouldn't bother us to the point of letting it affect our attention. We should be able to ignore these things.

I am not saying that the official should be over the top and ranting and raving -- but there's nothing that a quiet word with a cooperative game manager can't fix. On our (the schools') end, I'm trying best I can to get schools to be proactive with behavior and keep crap off the officials, who just want a positive experience and want to work.

I officiated at a school last week and the student section was just out of control. There 3 staff members, paid to be crowd control, did nothing but stand in the corner, glazed eyed. I let it go as I recognized that there's a systemic problem there and I wasn't going to fix it, but it made me unhappy, nonetheless.

For me, fan noise usually correlates to coach behavior. (My example above -- not. The coach was a gentleman all night.) I can ignore most of it, but when fans get personal or start in on members of the other team (student sections making fun of opposing players, for example), then it shouldn't just be ignored.

Maybe game admin should be doing their job. Have fans forgotten they are there to cheer for the teams?

I agree completely with shutting down the student section making fun of an opposing player. I will jump on that. But the generic things AremRed mentioned are standard phrases that I don't deem as "personal" - they are just generic opinions that fans say when they don't understand why calls are made or not made. Typical fan behavior - maybe he just didn't describe it to the level it rose to where it became toss-worthy.

Standards of what is deemed acceptable behavior will differ. I have no problem with what AremRed did. Not often, but on occasion, I have had to remind fans of the codes of conduct schools must adhere to in the leagues I work.

Context also matters. If that's a packed house, those comments might not make a difference, or even be heard. If its one idiot in a gym of 10 fans, then I'm not putting up with that very long.

The sportsmanship memos read by the PA announcers before games do a pretty good job of curtailing fan problems here.

And I agree with the above poster. If the gym is silent and there’s one guy acting the fool, he probably won’t make it very long even if he’s not saying magic words. I don’t have to have rabbit ears for that one guy to be pissing me off (and likely the other quiet fans around him).

Not sure if you guys get this info but here are some stats for our state:
Ejections/Technical Fouls
Last year through January 2, the CHSAA Office had received 197 basketball game reports on technical fouls and ejections. There were seven coaches and 10 players ejected. This season through January 2, we received 197 reports and two were coach and 17 were player ejections.

I should also add that when I have had to chastise an unruly fan, I typically got thanked by other people after the game.

There is a Saturday youth league I am a part of and have been for 18 years ( coached in it several years ago and also served on their board for about 6 years when I lived on that side of town). I work their JRHS and HS league games. The HS league is basically the intramural league for 9th, 10th, 11th graders. I don't have any issues with coaches in this league cause I know all of them from my time being involved and the league is well run in terms of what they expect from their coaches and players....but there's always one kid...every year!

First weekend of games, last Saturday...HS league, kid comes out from a timeout and jumps up and grabs the rim with one hand..he doesn't hang on it... just kinda grabbed it and came back down. So, I figure I'll give him benefit of the doubt and I simply tell him to stay off the rims during time outs. This knucklehead replies under his breath, but loud enough for me to hear it "You need to shut the F up"....Rang him up...then he had the balls to say "This is BS"...so he got tossed and won't be playing this week either.

Coach asked me after I reported what did he say...I told him and he said, thanks and just shook his head.

Fans are gonna be fans...I don't care if it's V, JV, Frosh, JH, Travel ball, AAU or rec...they are 95% idiots that don't know the rules.

You better check your code translator............and grow a thicker skin.

The fans are not there to watch me and I'm not trying to be noticed. Based on what the OP originally said, that is not a reason to throw somebody out or have them thrown out.

Speaking for myself, I take care of business. I'm just not in the business of listening to the crowd and growing elephant ears. I guess I'm just too worried about the players and the coaches. You know, what's actually happening on the court!

Bingo.

Now that is a great way to state your opinion and I agree with you.

The OP did not put it the way you put it. He made it sound like he was the one removing fans for saying things that quite frankly weren't that bad.

Your point is more spot on.

If this is high school sports we are talking about, I do not care what they are there to see, because this is often a school event where behavior that would be unacceptable in many areas would not be tolerated. Again, they do not have to be there if they do not know how to behave. And often fans say things that influence the players more than influence us in any way. If I have a player that has to hear certain things that would be considered inappropriate in any other school event, that is not acceptable to me. Who cares who they are hear to see. Not my issue and if I choose they will not be there to see anyone.

Peace

Good ol' camp speak. What fouls do you swallow your whistle on so you won't be noticed, if that's your goal?

I don't think anyone said they were in the business of growing elephant ears. I certainly am not and neither is AremRed. I am in the business of not allowing fans to distract me, my partners, and the players from the competition. At the high school level where there are many nights with not a lot of spectators, one obnoxious fan could very well be removed. At the D1 level they play in big arenas where the officials are unlikely to hear any comments that cross the line in the crowd. And the fans that sit courtside who act up will be removed by security before the officials even have to get involved.

So please, stop with your holier-than-thou nonsense.

Yep.

I could not care less who the fans are there to see or how much they paid. Perplexes me that officials like SD think that should be a concern of ours. That's fanboy speak.

Nothing wrong with your stance. I just don't think the things said in the OP were that bad and unacceptable behavior. We would be tossing people every single game if we are considering that unacceptable.

I'm not holier than thou. I'm just not that offended by the statements in the OP. Once somebody swears or gets personal (using my name or saying something me specifically that crosses the line) then we have a problem and we get administration involved.

I didn't say it was a concern of mine. I just think that guys that start tossing people and going overboard on their authority are trying to be noticed or make themselves a bigger part of the action. I've seen it. Not every ref or every situation is that way, but it's fairly common.

Perhaps the things that happen are different based on geographical areas.

Nor am I. I don't remove fans because I get offended; I remove fans if and when I get distracted (and normally so do my partners and the participants).

Removing fans is not "going overboard." Heck if game management does its job, much of the time we shouldn't even have to get involved.

At a couple of the schools I've been to, the administrator will come up to us and say "just give me the look and I'll remove him/her."

Random fan sitting in stands yells "You suck, ref" or "you're a cheater, ref", just ignore and keep working the game.

Random fan comes down to court, stands on sideline, points finger at me and screams "You're a cheater", game administration will be involved and fan will leave.

It's not what they say always, but how and where they say it from.

AremRed could you ask site management to have a talk with them and let them know if they dont settle down they will be asked to leave the game. That way both of you win?

I nearly had a second row loudmouth fan removed this past Saturday. He said nothing vulgar, but because he chose to sit close to the court and be obnoxious in a relatively quiet gym, he was a distraction and thus one outburst away from getting removed. If he was sitting on the top row I doubt I would’ve noticed him.

You just nailed both of my points.

I don't get distracted. Some people do I guess.

I don't feel the need to handle problem fans because management can do it. I don't need to do it.

As I stated earlier, problems/fans and the ability of management must vary substantially from area to area. I guess I should feel blessed to deal with very good management.

Perfectly stated!

I'm not letting a moron like that distract me or stop me from doing my job. Once they are within a couple of feet of me saying that, then we have a problem for management to deal with.

Removing an unruly fan is not a task taken lightly. It does not happen often. I am sure the removal discussed here was warranted. Maybe it would be a relief for the school to have a reason to address unacceptable behavior.

A private school AD thanked me when I asked her to get an unruly parent in check. She wanted to say something to that parent for a long time but for political reasons did not. When I asked her to speak to that parent, I gave her cover so she could say the officials asked me. The parent behaved the rest of the season :)

From my other referee life, we use the 3 p’s principal to determine if words or actions need to be dealt with by the referee, and I feel like they apply here as well. 1. Personal- Words or actions directed at a specific person; 2. Public- Can everyone hear it or just you and the offender; 3. Provacative- are the words or actions intended to incite further misconduct, raise the tension level, or show that obnoxious behavior is acceptable? If a fan’s, player’s, or coach’s behavior oversteps most/all of these bounds, then I think it is your duty as a referee to deal with it. As others have said, this doesn’t mean an immediate ejection, but perhaps having the site manager talk to the fan. Common sense rules here; we don’t want to be tossing every fan that utters a critical word, but we also don’t want to turn a blind eye to unacceptable behavior that will continue on to the next game and next referee.

Just wanted to highlight this. And this is also part of the reason why "thicker skin" should vary by level. A varsity ref doing a middle school game should not have the same thick skin at that game. Not for himself, but for the newbie doing the next game.

I would be surprised (absent additional facts) to see a parent in the stands tossed for the comments in AremRed's post from any of the varsity high school games I've watched this year (quality tournaments, high level league, lots of people in the stands). But I would not in the least be surprised for those same comments to lead to a removal from a quiet middle school gym.

That was my situation tonight. Middle school coach calls timeout specifically to call me over to discuss a couple of no calls. After giving him more explanation than I should have, then being informed we were not going to discuss any more calls the rest of the night, as I walked away he said "then call it both ways!" He found himself coaching from the bench the rest of the night. MS coaches don't always get experienced refs who will take care of inappropriate behavior in front of the kids. Maybe his behavior will be better the rest of the season.

To his credit, he sought me after the game to apologize.

Agree completely.

I know sometimes questioning certain things here makes others say we are not "pro-official" or saying what fans/coaches would say, etc.

But without additional context I think its utterly ridiculous to throw out a fan for saying, "you're terrible" or "you should be ashamed of yourself."

And I can tell you while you might get public support, NONE of the major HS assigners in my area would privately support such action. And your schedule would reflect accordingly. It makes you that guy.

While I agree some fans are overly obnoxious, I actually find a little pleasure in ignoring these idiots who get all worked up over a scholastic contest while I simply go about doing my job and officiate the game.

In terms of coaches, if this was posed a month ago I would not have agreed with the assertion in the OP that their, and players, behavior has gotten worse this year.

But since Holiday tournament time it seems I've had a run of poor behavior.

- Had a kid walk by me while I was at the table after calling a foul on him and say, "of course that was on me. B!t ch arse, ref!" Whack. Flagrant T. (Just occurred to me this is actually a good example of what J Rut was talking about in the Teddy Valentine thread that was closed)

- Had an asst coach throw down a clipboard in reaction to a no-call. After I T'd him had the following exchange with the HC-

HC- What was that for?
Me- Your asst slammed a clipboard.....
HC- A T for that, seriously?
Me- (Paraphrasing after a blank stare meant to say are you really asking me that fn question).... That's about as easy an unsporting T an official can have in a scholastic game
HC- You havent said anything to the bench all game. We should get a warning first.

- Had a normally mild mannered HC who if you polled our association, I'd bet would easily be top 3 in terms of coaches with the best attitude, bench decorum, rapport with officials, etc. walk onto the court past the 3 point line yelling, "that's a foul." My table side partner beat me to the T by half a second. He was getting beat at home by almost 20 and his kids weren't playing hard, which I've never seen in that gym.

- Had several other games with coaches and players just being repeatedly whiny that has been addressed with Ts or other measures.

Not sure if its just the cyclical nature of things or what but the last 3-4 weeks have been a lot of fun.

I guess the one thing I'd throw out for discussion is how do folks see the official warning playing out in your games?

Are you or your partners using it? Have coaches who you've had to whack brought up they should get a warning first?

I've given three warnings this year, and all of them worked to the point where I wish I didn't even have to give them.

First one was a 9th grade coach who is also an official in our association who spent pre-game bragging about the varsity game he worked the night before. He then proceeded to moan the entire first quarter that his guys weren't getting a call. Warned him in the second quarter, not a peep after that.

Second game was a girls JV game with one coach who's a known yapper and one I've never had before. Home yapper finally wears me out in the third quarter, warned him, not a peep unless it ended with "sir". Not 30 seconds later, visiting coach gets his for complaining that his girls are being called for ticky tack fouls. Not a word from him the rest of the night.

I'm glad we have the option for a warning, but I wish coaches realized when to cool it so we didn't have to get that far. Overall, I think my coaches and players have been about the same to slightly better than last year, but fan behavior has gotten worse.

I had something similar happen last year. Home team needs to foul to stop the clock and home player grabs the visiting team's ball handler from behind and appears to get a handful of jersey as well... an easy intentional foul call.

Home coach disagrees and calls time out to express his disagreement with me and ask about the call. Once it was obvious we were going in circles, I told him I'd be moving on and I left to go to my time out spot. He then followed me onto the court and said, "Well, I'm not!" That was one of my easier technical fouls to call :D.

I've used it once so far in a JV girls game to address inappropriate comments by players on the bench. As soon as I reported it and told the coach what happened, she addressed it immediately, and we didn't have a problem for the rest of the game.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and it's definitely possible!), but weren't you the poster who within the last year or so spoke with pride about having never issued a coach a technical in a varsity game?

Close, it was actually 2 years ago. Good memory.

Over 500 games and no coach T’s is not coincidental or an indicator of good game management; it’s an unwillingness to penalize unacceptable behavior.

Wow! Quite the memory!

In the past yearish, I have handed out a couple of Ts to players. None to coaches. That is what I meant about taking care of business. I do not tolerate unruly behavior from kids. Usually a stern verbal warning before we get a necessary technical works for me. If you see it coming and know the history of behavior of the participants, you can usually stop inappropriate behavior/actions before they really get going.

I don't believe we were talking about unruly coaches were we? I thought it was fans we were talking about?

If you want to bring up coaches, no, I haven't Td one up yet. I haven't needed to. To some on this board, it means that I'm letting too much go. In reality, we have very good coaches in this area that know where the line is and don't cross it. My methods of communication with coaches has kept them from reaching the boiling point. Everybody has their own things that work. What I have done has worked and has kept me from getting to the point of a technical foul.

That does not mean I am a perfect official. It means that I have been fortunate enough to work for good coaches that don't throw their anger at me. The day will come I'm sure.

From the sounds of it, most of you guys work teams that you are not familiar with and don't see very often. It's the opposite for me. We know pretty much ALL of the teams, coaches, and players well. Not socially or personally, but from seeing them so many times on the court. I believe that makes our job in this area easier. The coaches and players know what the lines are and not to cross them.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? I provided a response above.

Yes, I agree, very good memory. Whether you whack a coach or not does not equate to you being a good or bad official. I know some disagree with that statement.

As explained in length above, I haven't needed to yet. We have plenty of respect and professionalism in our area. It seems like a lot of you are dealing with the opposite in your areas. I suppose there are many reasons why.

Who said anything about 500 games? Your statement about "unwillingness to penalize unacceptable behavior" is your opinion. It doesn't make you a better official than me or anybody else. I could take the opposite approach and say that you are a hot head with a short fuse. I don't believe that, but that's the approach you are taking.

As I stated above, we have a very good level of respect and professionalism in our area. It seems you guys are dealing with the opposite.

I am picturing the types of people you guys are dealing with and I'm glad that we don't have much of that, if any, in our areas. I'm picturing the crowds, coaches, and players that we see in preseason meeting videos and viral videos on the internet. I imagine you guys deal with that type of nonsense. It may hard for most of you to believe or accept, but where I am at, that is the exception and not the rule. In our area, if you are a good official, you get the respect and professionalism that we all deserve.

I have issued 4 coaches warnings so far.

2 of them were in the last 2-3 minutes of games issued to the HCs who were winning but were continually harping about a call they didn't like.

One was issued to a coach early in the 3rd quarter after complaining on 3 consecutive possessions about no-calls. He was fine the rest of the game.

The 4th was for a coach who started in early and I gave him a warning late in the 1st quarter. Then in the 3rd quarter one of my partners was about to issue that same HC a warning when he caught eye contact with me and remembered I had already issued a warning. So he issued a T instead like the rule intended.

It has been a while since I have T'd up a HS coach (it's been so long I don't remember). I have T'd up 2 college HCs this season. Neither was a problem after the receiving their T's.

I have heard some guys make similar statements. I have also seen these same guys get raked over hot coals by coaches. Don't be "that guy".

Perhaps the discussion about fan behavior and removing spectators should have its own thread since this originated as one about coach/player behavior. Entirely different animals IMO.

With regard to the official warning I had it in my head- likely from being stubborn, resistant to change, or just ego- that I was not going to use it.

I've only had one partner use it and though I didn't like the way we administered it; it worked like a charm. Got a whiny coach to basically act like a church mouse the rest of the game.

Based on that and the experiences shared here I think I will now incorporate it into my games. Maybe it would have helped avoid some of the Ts and poor behavior I've had recently as intended.

There is no line..... you have never T'd them.

To be fair, we don't know that. Maybe he's just been the most fortunate official to ever bless this forum in terms of coach's behavior. Maybe the SD stands for San Diego and the coaches are always in a good mood due to the beautiful weather and scenery.

We can keep attacking the source and most likely, he's missed opportunities to serve coaches some deserving tea.

But I still agree with him that, without additional context, tossing spectators for saying "you're terrible" or "you should be ashamed of yourself" or even "you're cheating our girls" is not good practice and not something ANY of the HS assigners I have ever work for would support privately.

To be fair, the assumption that the context did not warrant ejection is just not fair. Why not give the benefit of the doubt to the official if you were not there to see it for yourself?

To be fair, unless you are an "assignor", maybe you should not speak for your assignor.

We cannot get caught up in personal experiences. There are always going to be things that one person would take care of and another would pass on. I know just in this year I have some interesting situations where I know I passed on and others I felt I had to address. Sometimes it is not what is actually said, but the behavior with the actions.

I had a coach last night get all upset because he had a player get fouled and he went to the "my players are going to get hurt" BS line. I then told him without hesitation, "First of all, stop telling me what to do and if you do not want your players to get hurt, basketball is not the sport to play." I would not have done that normally, but it was a total over reaction to a couple of very, minor contact fouls (that were called BTW) as if he had players getting knocked out. It also did not help that he had tattoos down his arm and he looked like a biker rather than a high school basketball coach. But to each his own on that one. I later gave him a warning for his little display and he realized I was not playing with him. Years ago that would not have been the reaction of a coach IMO, but now every little thing seems to set them off.

Peace

There is a reason why I said, "without additional context."

And I know my assingors well enough and have discussed and observed enough situations with them that I feel more than comfortable saying what I said.

So you can continue to be as snide as you'd like and I will continue to offer my opinion and perspective in response to things posted as I see fit.

ETA- And it's funny how we pick and choose when to give officials the "benefit of the doubt." Your comments indicate you are not giving SD Ref the same benefit of the doubt in his interactions with coaches. J Rut offers wise words on getting caught up in personal experiences but this is also a forum where officials share those experiences and people comment on them. Sometimes others can learn from them and sometimes they can't.

Where is the "LIKE" button on this forum???

It's always tough to tell from small samples (watching my son's games), but it seems to me the bar for Ts has been pretty high. I don't think I've seen a coach Td up this year. I've seen a couple of warnings--one seemed a bit soft and one I wouldn't hve been surprised going straight to a T. I've watched rantings that I was shocked weren't Td up. Star player called for a foul (on the other team, so I'm biased, but seemd like a pretty vanilla call to me), and the coach is screaming at half court, then at the baseline while the bonus FT is being taken, then back at half court. Still screaming during the second FT. No T, no warning. So of course he is going to continue.

While a like button might work for the forum, and it might work for the specific post you quoted, it wouldn't be appropriate for this thread, imo.

I hear ya.

It may be hard for most to understand, but the level of respect and professionalism we receive is great. Now, some of the lesser officials may have a harder time than I do.

No, I'm not a perfect or the best official, but I do a good job and coaches know that I do a good job and that I am willing to communicate with them when they have questions. Whether it be my judgment or whatever. They don't reach a boiling point with me............not yet anyway.

Apparently you don't understand. The coaches we deal with know there is a line there. Whether it's years of experience of Ts they have received in the past, they know it.

I do a good job, and combined with that line, the coaches are great for the most part to us in our area.

I think the rest of you must deal with some pretty over the top coaches.

Fair enough. I have questions about your assignors mentality. What does "support privately" mean? Are there two sets of standards? Would they support the ejections in the public eye?

I have fellow officials in our area that haven't Td up a coach yet too. I'll buy the argument that we have missed an opportunity or two over the years to do so. I'm not perfect.

Good question.

When I say support privately I mean that I've seen and discussed situations with assignors who will "back" some of their official's decisions and actions in conversations with administrators and coaches but will privately indicate to the official that going forward, they would like things handled in a different way.

I will give an example from a few years ago that actually dealt with spectator behavior. In a game I worked, one of my partners confronted a fan before going to the locker room for half time. My other partner and I grabbed him before it really escalated to anything. The official explained that the fan made a personal comment about his hair and that struck a nerve with him.

The incident got back to our assingor who spoke with the site administrator about making sure they have the necessary protocols in place to strongly discourage and address fans making personal verbal attacks against officials.

Privately he admonished the official for his actions and reiterated to go through game management if/when an incident like that occurred again.

I don't think that you understand, but we can agree to disagree. Sometimes coaches want to get a T to fire up there team and you don't even award them that ability?

This is like saying after years of officiating I have never had a double whistle because my partners and I know our PCA lines. With years of experience this will and still does happen even to the best.

Well I don't think he said he wouldn't call a T, just that he hasn't.

Some of us know our assignors well enough to know their philosophies and expectations.

And supervisors, at times, back officials publicly while admonishing them privately.

All my warnings were soft, purposely so. I can now FORMALLY address unwanted conduct/behavior before it rises to the level of a T. There are some coaches to whom I can talk, but there are others with whom I can't because it becomes negative. I can replace those negative interactions with warnings.

Unless I hear from an assignor, I will not take anyone's word who speaks on their behalf. So far, one assignor has spoken up on this thread.

These types of people should not be in charge of anything.

This dead horse has been beat enough. Have a great day.

Why? Would you suggest that assigners throw their officials under the bus to administrators and coaches as an alternative?

Those kinds of people are in charge of many things, and successfully so.

And it doesn't matter whose word you're willing to accept. What you believe has zero effect on anybody's else relationship with their assignor(s).

Two way honesty is not throwing someone under the bus.

Assigners hire oficials but work for administrators in many places. Not being transparent and honest isn't the right way to do business.


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An official can be technically correct in how they handled a situation, but it may not have been the best way in the eyes of the assignor. An official may have suggested to game admin to have a spectator removed. An assignor can back that official's decision to conference administrator while at the same time telling his official that in the future it would be best to ignore such a fan.

So you are saying that if you didn't like the way one of your officials handled something, even if it was "technically" correct, you would tell the administrator and the official that you didn't like the way it was handled?

I don't disagree with this.

But if I'm sent a video and asked about a play or a sequence and the official was obviously wrong, I'll say so. For me to do otherwise would dilute the message I send when the official is right.

Of course the communication is all done professionally.


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Correct.

Oh yeah, definitely agree when it comes to play-calling and on court situations.

Exactly. And very similar to the situation I provided as an example.

People can offer all sorts of platitudes about who they think should be in charge of whatever but its a fact of life that people in charge of things at various levels externally communicate things one way, while internally having a more pointed message to the individuals involved.

I don't see where anyone has suggested otherwise.

As Raymond noted there is a difference between plays, on the court sequences, rules administration, etc. and something like engaging a fan.

One can be transparent and still communicate slightly different messages to different audiences.

In the situation similar to what I described it does no good for an assigner to tell an administrator, "this guy is a loose cannon, I told him if he ever pulls that crap again he will never work another game for me."

Rather, he can say something like, "I have spoken with my official about the need to handle such situations through game management. Please make sure that in the future, clear protocols are in place to discourage and address fans making personal comments to game officials."

Privately to the official he may say, "please don't be stupid. If a fan makes a dumb comment like that without any further action just ignore it or report it to game management. This is not the first time we've discussed something like this so don't do that again if you want to continue working games in this board."

This is not a lack of transparency. Its professionally handling a situation with both external and internal audiences.

An administrator is not an external audience.

The administrators write my paycheck.


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Ok, that's all well and good.

Here, the administrators don't, at least directly write our assigners paycheck, and they are not part of our board.

All that aside, do you have an issue with the hypothetical communication in my post above?

I don't - here I was hired by my schools. We don't really assign through associations here. I can hire anyone licensed by the state.

Don't misunderstand - I am as pro-official as they come, while being transparent as best I can. My last conversation with a crew at a game site was to tell them the one coach should've been warned early and whacked. Of course I told the AD something similar the next day.


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Well, I think we are mostly on the same page.

My only point is really re-stating what Raymond already said more succinctly than I'm able to do.

One can be pro official and support an official's decision, or authority to make that decision, while privately expressing to that official their preference for he or she to make a different decision should a similar situation arise in the future.

My R tonight got rid of a visiting team fan who was holding up his glasses for and yelling at the other crew member. The fan was sitting all alone right behind the table so he kinda stuck out, which I guess is why he got rid of him.

He actually asked the fan directly “Do you want to stay here?” and I think the fan dared him to get rid of him, so he went to the deputy and did just that. I wouldn’t have gone to the fan directly and probably wouldn’t have even tossed him for what he did, but when you’ve been around as long as this R has you earn some leeway in how you handle things.

I used to have partners that I would work a great deal of games with that would do something they called, "Playing the game."

They would have a fan that would act very stupid or stand out and they would sit next to each other, point and act like they were talking about the guy/gal and every time the obnoxious fan would either shut up or their spouse/partner or friends around them would hit them to shut up. Even one time there was a guy that left on his own immediately. It was hilarious how often this worked. They did not do it all the time or every game. It was rare, but it worked. BTW, they would be talking about where they were going to eat or how good their hair looked, but it was nothing to do directly with the fan or saying anything they could hear. Often it was done in the middle of the court during a timeout.

Peace