TV Teddy Video and comments?
 

Video request
TV Teddy ignores and refused to address North Carolina guard Joel Berry as Berry was arguing he was fouled in the open court. Anyone else think Valentine looked silly when he made an exaggerated gesture and turned his back to Berry?

What is there to comment on? The player was arguing and he decided not to talk to him. Might not be the way I would have done it, but I am not in his position either. And him being a 4-year player means nothing to me. That kid might not even make the NBA and why would an official give a damn about who he is anyway?

Peace

Yes, it was silly, childish even.

Agreed.

Video Link
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNlUoIXq8RQ

I don't agree with how he handled the situation.

We don't want players showing us up and we shouldn't be showing them up either!

I was on his side until I saw the video. That was pretty douchey.

The whole thing is just strange. I wonder what was said behind closed doors after the game once everyone saw the actual foul that was missed.

I'm pretty sure I agree. The thing we don't know is if the kid had been a whiney PITA for the whole game, trying to argue every call. If that had been the case, I can maybe almost kinda see that you want to send the message that you are absolutely done trying to talk with him.

Even then, I'm pretty sure I don't like the folding the arms. It really made him look stupid.

Bad look. If its that much of a problem T him up and move on.

Not only that, he put up both hands to stop him from arguing. The play in question was not Teddy's play to see. That was the Center's and maybe the Trail's play to see.

And I am sure Teddy does not care what others like us think about the situation, he handled it to where it was done. The kid did not get a T, he probably stopped complaining to him and we moved on. If Jay Bilas did not say anything, no one would have even recognized the situation I am sure. And who cares what Jay thinks anyway as I am trying to figure out why him being a 4-year player matters to anyone but some media person. He does not get more room to complain. He is also a Black player talking to a Black official, who most here probably have no idea the things that Black players say to officials. He probably was trying to keep his behind in the game because he was important to the NC team. None of us know and most would not even know what I am referencing for a reason. So I would need to ask Teddy specifically what that player was saying to even get partially upset about anything Teddy V said.

Peace

Absolutely horrific action by the official. I found hilarious that the player then did not give him the ball and placed it on the floor. The player won that situation IMO.

He did not ask for the ball and it was a timeout. IJS.

Peace

Watch the full clip Jeff, Teddy turns back around and asks for the ball with his hands. The player starts to give it to him, then puts it on the ground.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=21955293

I'm wondering if you'd be willing to expand on what you mean by this. I'm not doubting you at all on this, so please don't mistake this for skepticism. I can imagine what you're saying, but am curious about this. How often does this type of thing happen? What types of things are they saying that they wouldn't say to me? How do you handle that? Is there a line in the sand for you? Do Black coaches interact with you differently than they do with your partners and/or differently than white coaches do?

For 99.9% of officials, doing this will get them in trouble.

For Teddy, the rules are different. Whether that’s fair or not is a different debate, but he’s “earned” the privilege to do things his own way. There’s a reason Teddy continues to work high-profile games and go deep into the postseason.

What I am saying is that Black players tend to be a little "extra" with Black officials. They tend to say things to us they never would imagine saying to other officials. I deal with this all the time where I live in both high school and college games. I have had this conversation with many Black officials as to how Black players and coaches act towards us when we have Caucasian partners or non-Black partners.

I will give one example that happened to me last week. I had a game between a City team and a Suburban Catholic school (That plays in the major city Catholic School Conference) that happened to have a couple of white players on the team. The coach from the All-Black city team had the nerve to say to me something about the racial breakdown of his opponent. I got actually upset and challenged him directly when he made that comment. And you can say, "Why didn't you T him?" Well, that would have caused another issue and would have been ammo to use against me based on what was happening in the game. But I got my point across and we moved on. BTW, the teams both had the same amount of fouls in the game and we fouled out only one player in the game and he happened to be a Caucasian player. But if you listened to this coach all night you would have thought we were screwing him or had something against him. His team also won the game by about 4 in a tough game. For the record, I was not the only Black official on the game and it was clear that the players and coaches from this one team said very little to our white partner, even when he would make a call that was all on him. This is common, it is annoying and there is no easy solution. You just have to have a team or area enough where they realize you do not give a damn either way.

I will just say this. People do not leave their social, political, or values at the door when playing sports. It often is an issue from everything to assigning to how you have to deal with the extracurricular in a game. And this was the case when I worked a game in my new home state where I was the only Black official and you would have thought I was the only official a certain coach would talk to. It gets old and unless I know something about what was said to Teddy, I get it big time. Because if he has to constantly hear his mouth, sometimes you need to do drastic things to get player's attention. It was certainly drastic but might have been the last straw.

Peace

Thanks for the response. That's what I was curious about. As a History teacher, I've always been interested in inter/intra racial relations. Often when guys around here get metro league assignments, if it is a suburban school (much lower percentage of minority students) vs. a city school (very high percentage of minority students), I've noticed that there is usually a Black official. I assume this is by design and it's probably a good practice. I'm sure they also deal with the same thing that you do, but I don't hear much of it or much about it so I'm always curious if that happens often. It's a hard subject to have a conversation about, and I'm always nervous that I will offend someone by asking the wrong question or a stupid question but this is interesting to me.

Do you have a line in the sand where you are going to shut them down and/or issue a technical, or is that fluid based on their previous interactions? Do you notice a difference between the way white coaches treat you vs. your partners?

Why was Berry complaining to Teddy Valentine about that missed call? When are players and coaches going to quit complaining to the referees who have nothing to do with the play in question? And Teddy asked for the ball and Berry chose instead to complain, so Valentine turned his back.

And if Valentine was wrong, that means he was wrong no matter what the status of the player was. What does being a 4-year player or a national championship point guard have to do with the conversation?

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I think it was a great question. I wish more people would ask questions on sensitive subjects instead of just making assumptions about what others are talking about. Sometimes you find there are things in play that you could never have imagined.



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I call it reverse racism. Was subjected to it for many years and now occasionally run into it.

Yes, the Good 'Ol Boys Network.

Indeed, watch the entire clip. Did not appear to even be his line either but Teddy made the OB signal. When the player placed the ball on the floor, it is no wonder that Teddy did not issue a T for not giving the ball to the nearest official. LOL. Kinda wished he did as we might have seen a chair thrown.:cool:

One thing I meant to ask JRut, in your example you talked about the coach making comments all game. Do you think that would influence your partners in his favor? TBH, I would have a tough time not giving his team all the 50/50 calls just to keep the peace and not be accused of something sinister if he kept talking about his team not getting calls because of their racial makeup.

If these coaches didn’t want Teddy on their games I guarantee you he wouldn’t be. He’s repeatedly tabbed one of the best officials in the country by coaches. Whether or not we should care about that is irrelevant; at this level, to a certain extent, you have to have the trust of the coaches or you will not be around long.

I think I hear what JRutledge is saying. I've been in some interesting situations.

I have games where sometimes I'm the only white person on the court. And the coaches who are both black, will go to my partners long before they ever would talk to me. That doesn't bother me, its part of life and all I can do is work hard to earn their respect.

I've also been in situations where players that are on a sports team, this might be their escape from what's ever going on outside of basketball. And yes, that some times means dealing with situations a little differently.

For me, I try to be neutral to all of those things which is the great part of being an official. That doesn't mean I am not aware, but I would hope my best judgement helps guide me through situations because I don't know that there is a silver bullet.

Don't feel nervous, this is just life. This is not something that changes because we are talking about a sport. I wish that there was nothing else but our job, but often that is not the case.

Of course, I have lines, but I also know the situation I am in. And when you are in certain situations, you have to often deal with them in unconventional ways. The situation I talked about also got the focus back on the game, not me or my partner's and who happened to be one color or another. It was not perfect, but it got the job done. And I had to approach him as a man, which would not have solved anything by a T. If I had given a T in this situation, it would have been all about me. I was trying to avoid that.

Keep in mind I have officiated all over the state of Illinois. I have officiated in small rural towns from large urban, poverty-stricken areas. Yes, I have been mistreated in ways that I feel it is about my race from white coaches. But those situations are much more subtle and much more under the radar. When I deal with a Black coach in many cases they will come right out and say what they are thinking. It puts you in a peculiar situation when no one hears the comments. But I will say this by far the blatant disrespect I have gotten is from people that look like me. And it usually surrounds who they are playing and who they think is on their side, whatever that is supposed to mean to them.

I am not trying to take this off on something else, but I can imagine what Teddy had to deal with when it came to this player and why he took such an extreme situation to solve the problem. Again, the problem seemed to be solved. The player stayed in the game and he probably stopped bitching to him about plays. So when someone suggests that the player won, that is funny because if a player goes back to playing and keeping his mouth shut to me, I win that every single time. It does not help you coming to me as if you are in the NBA because you did not like a call. And he was not the official that likely saw the play as clear.

Peace

Racism is racism, but this has nothing to do with anything in reverse. This is more cultural as to how people of one group interact with each other or try to make a point that might not be even an issue. But that is a conversation for another day.

No, the coaches like guys they have seen. And I bet the coaches for North Carolina are probably having a different conversation about this than some media person that was not there. ;)

Well, they are in transition and a long pass falls in his lap. That is often a call that both the Trail or the Lead can and will make if they clearly see. If they were in the half court I would agree that is not his line, but the lead is a long way away from that play.

Peace

I don't like this type of disrespectful behavior from an official. It reflects poorly on our profession and creates a negative perception. I am not going to try to justify it much like coaches often try to justify their or their players behavior. Just because he is the best or among the best in the country does not mean he is above screwing up or acting inappropriately.

Not sure I totally understand as reverse racism is an actual thing, separate from just racism. Agree, different topic for different day and I do see your point.

As I said, the Good Ol' Boys Network.

Agree, but then makes me wonder how, L(Teddy) or T, missed the holding foul. Even C looking across could have gotten it. It resulted in a turnover so no surprise that the player wanted to inquire about it. Instead of what Teddy did, all he had to say was that he did not see it or missed it. Had he done that, then we would not be having this thread.:rolleyes:

Reverse from what? The issue again was with people of the same race. Not sure what the reverse took place. And no it is not a thing, it is a made up thing by people in the power position to complain about them being violated as if they really are being harmed. Most people that are historically discriminated against are not in a position to prevent those in power from anything.


What does that have to do with any network? They know exactly what they are going to get with Teddy and others like him and they have been in the bigger games time and time again. They like the devil they know, not the guy they have never seen.


Teddy was the last person to see this. He was at best straightlined and had a horrible angle. He had other players coming at him that were closer. If the pass was not so bad then there would have been no reason to even focus on this player.

Yeah, players accept your reasoning with them. Yeah, that happens. :rolleyes:

Next thing you going to tell me players do not complain about fouls. The very last foul in that game the player goes behind the rebounder and damn near rips off his arms and the player acted like he was totally innocent. Yep, we would never talk about the behavior of players. :D

Peace

As I read somewhere else, we as officials should conduct ourselves in a presidential manner. The public expects no less.

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Yep. :D

Peace

...which President?

You have to ask?

Peace

Regardless of how players and or coaches behave, I would like to think our behavior is second to none.

If there is an emphasis being placed on NOT talking to players or allowing them to complain... Teddy was spot on!
I think Joel should have been whacked for not giving up that ball immediately - would have accomplished the same thing!

On the other hand . . .
 

[QUOTE=Raymond;1014142]As I read somewhere else, we as officials should conduct ourselves in a presidential manner. The public expects no less.

Perhaps our political leaders (both sides) and the various news media should conduct themselves more in the manner of an official. The public certainly expects and deserves that.

That was an unbelievable display of unprofessional behavior. Someone else called it "childish"...I agree. Definitely over-the-top ego driven.

I would never turn my back on anyone like that in a game - unless someone was throwing a punch or a clip board at me.

To face the end of the gym and crowd, and not even act like you are looking at the other players, or looking at a coach, or looking at something on the court related to the game is absurd. What a d-bag move. I don't care how good he thinks he is or how good his reputation is. That was an a-hole move. The player was trying to talk to him respectfully and he pulled that move. Talk about making the game and moment about you while looking to be noticed. If one of my partners did that, I would call them out on it.

It was ridiculous to begin with and then the arms being crossed took it to another level.

We admonish kids for acting the way they do and showing us up. We give them technicals. Then this clown does this?

....I would have a REALLY hard time not laughing.

Most players aren't smart enough to realize what ref was where and who's call it was. He was just looking to ask one of the officials and Ted V pulled that garbage move. He could have simply said "I didn't see it and talk to the guy that was close to the play" etc. etc. etc.

Terrible move and look for officials!

That says a lot about you then if you would laugh when your partner did that.

And I am sure he does not give a crap what we think here about his actions. I know I wouldn't. You nor I were there. We do not know what was said, we do not know what else happened to even have any confrontation. And if that offends some, that is their issue. I walk away from players all the time, is that unprofessional? I a might not have turned my back, but they see my back. And guess what, there are people that get offended when I do that as if I have some obligation to talk to players about their concerns. Well I am a grown man and that means that kids (which are what most of us are officiating, even at the college level) are not on the same level as me as a man. So you cannot come to me and talk about respect when you do not show it in any way. Teddy was not the guy on the play, go to the other guy that was. And he put up both hands to indicate "I am not talking to you" and he continued until Teddy turned his back to him. And I am still waiting for the reasoning of who the kid is as if it matters. This would not even be an issue if Jay Bilas did not tweet about this. ;)

Peace

Ted could spray an entire arena with elephant repellant, and his groupies would find justification when no elephants show up for the game.

Yes. It would say that I thought it was so ridiculous that it's funny.

I hope that Valentine receives a lengthy suspension.

How do you know if the player was respectful?

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You are funny.

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Why does he keep getting big games from multiple supervisors?

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Because he’s a good play caller.

Doesn’t justify his unnecessary antics.

Cause everyone *in the game* wants him there.

Always funny seeing fans and HS refs think their opinions mean anything.

I'd kill for Ted's longevity and career.


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I'm kinda late to this discussion...but wow, this is just a BAD look regardless of circumstances leading up to it OR Teddy's status as a top NCAA official IMO. I'd love to know what kind of feedback he got from his assigner.

TV Teddy Video and comments?
 

He might lose a game or two in that conference and will quickly fill those spots elsewhere.

Probably trying to avoid a technical foul and he would've been better off just letting the kid talk and whacking him.

Teddy's been at the top as long as I can remember. I remember watching the Bobby Knight incident live as it happened -- that was 20 years ago.

He'll be just fine and someday there'll be another thread like this. Shrug.


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Did it ever occur to you that they do not care about his so-called "antics?" This is something officials that struggle working a big game in their area like to complain about. But wonder why certain guys get games over them and claim there is some level of "professionalism" that seems to be maintained. I have been officiating for a long time and I have seen officials at all levels do all kinds of things that would be seen as "unprofessional" but it works and does not hurt their schedules.

Peace

I think there's a difference that some of us on here refuse to acknowledge.

No, it will not hurt him professionally and he will fill his dates even if he loses games. He doesn't care what people think and obviously his supervisors don't either, and they're the ones that matter.

Yes, it was unnecessary and makes the officiating profession look bad.

It can be both things, and I feel like both are true. Media, fans, etc don't need any more ammo than they already have, and things like this give them that ammo.

If we are using the media and fans as a barometer of what makes us look bad, we "look bad" when we simply T up a player. Jay Bilas goes on and on about calls that he thinks are not good and says that officials do certain things they should not do. Rarely does he ever put things on the coaches or the administrators that actually make the rules or even the administrators that want things to be a certain way. We do not need this incident to make anything change in the perception. This is ultimately about Teddy and what he did. And still, the problem is that the media thinks that because of the kid's resume' we are supposed to feel a certain way about a player, but not the resume' or even the background of the official. All you have to do is watch SportsCenter every day and see a highlight package and every call is scrutinized as if the officials are idiots or do not know what their job is, so I just laugh when people point to things like this as if perception has changed or will change.

Peace

"I'm thinking about retiring," Valentine said. "I've had enough of people blowing up stuff. I think I've had a stellar career, and I think it's time to get ready to walk away."

As good as he is, he's done some silly stuff. This wasn't blown up, he did it. He'll recover because he is good, but that doesn't mean what he did was acceptable.

No real way to know what he was "trying to avoid"... However, I have never seen an official at this way. None of us would want a player or coach to act this way with us and we certainly wouldn't encourage any official on any level to behave this way.


He was wrong!

We are held to a higher standard than the players... The players are held to a higher standard than the average kid in the history or Algebra class etc.

This behavior is just wrong.

Teddy might be better served to admit he could have handled this situation a little differently and move on...
There is nothing basketball-related/officiating-related he can say that will provide a good defense for this behavior.

Higher standard by whom? I think what he did was not only justified but unique. Because if he would have T'd him, then everyone would have suggested he did something wrong too. I have been watching Teddy for a long time. I remember when he would have the media all over him when he gave Ts to someone that was justified and officials would also complain because they did not have the guts to take such action.

Now if you feel it is wrong, that is your opinion. You have a right to that opinion. The more I hear people complain about what he did, the more I think he did what he needed to do for that situation. But I do not think there is anything wrong with not saying something that will be used against you no matter what you say. But again, I do not live in this sensitive attitude era that we live in now and accept that premise. There was a time when officials would damn near curse you out and no one said a thing. So save the "We are held to a higher standard" crap. We just have more cameras and more coverage for those to find something to scrutinize.

Peace

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/ted-val...161625211.html

It would be wonderful if he opted to retire.

And on that note, I'm closing this thread.

Nothing good can come from it. And I'm not willing to go through the thread and delete the name calling, which is beneath this forum and our avocation.