Wrong name in book
 

I was made aware of this situation.

In between Q1 and Q2 the bookkeeper and calls over the official. They said that V#5 who had played in the first quarter had the wrong name. Basically the #5 was listed as John Doe but in reality the kid was named something else. The guest book was checked and it had the wrong name in it as well so this was not a book keeper error.

How do they proceed?

Change it (if they want to) and move on. There is no penalty for changing a name, only a number.

10-1-1

However, you need to check the information provided to the scorers and confirm that it was incorrect there. It's not enough to just look at the books. If the roster was wrong, that's an administrative technical for failing to provide the name and number of a team member who participated.

They did not fail to provide it.

If they provide the name John Doe but they play Tim Edgar, how have they not failed to provide the name Tim Edgar?

Changing a name or a number is a T.

10-1-1 penalty is for failure to provide the list before the ten minute mark. Names and numbers can all be wrong and there is no penalty in 10-1-1.
10-1-2 penalty is for adding a name (and number) or changing a number.

Think of it this way. All the names could be wrong and you'd never know the difference. Numbers must be correct for obvious reasons.

Rule?

Unless there is evidence that they were purposefully trying to be deceitful, I'm treating this as an administrative error and moving on.

Others mileage may vary but I'm confident this is how the people I work for would want this handled.

Don't be that guy issuing a T here unless your assingors/supervisors have expressed otherwise.

Of course it's an administrative error, that's why it's an administrative technical. It's a T to add a name to the book which is what you have to do here.

To add a name would be to increase the total number of team members. Such is not the case here.

Was the name there before? Is it there now? It's been added.

"No, it was changed." How was it changed? You took one name off and added a new one.

I'm always amazed at the lengths some members of this forum will go to bail out coaches and players from technical fouls.

10-2-2.

The name of a player was not in the book and had to be added. They also had to change the number to the correct player.

The name is what identifies who is playing. If that player is not listed in the book, they must be added. Opposing teams don't plan for which numbers are playing but which individuals are playing. The number just facilitates the bookkeeping.

I can't find anywhere that says it is a T to change a name. Changing a number is explicitly stated as a T.

The key word here is require.

"A team shall not require the scorer to change a player or team member's number in the scorebook.

If a number is wrong, the scorer is required to change it in order to accurately keep up with what happens in the game. If a name is wrong...... it means nothing.

My opinion it was a T either under 10-1-1 as they did not supply them with the name of all players that may participate or under 10-1-2 as they had to add the correct name and then change the number to him.

I don't think it was in this occasion but it is possible they were using the wrong name to skate the quarter limitation set by the state.

Of course you know, the quarter limitation is none of our concern. Who pointed out the wrong name? At what stage of the game?

I do know that is none of our concern just was pointing out a reason why it may be important to have the correct name in the book.

It was pointed out by the home score between q1 and q2. The visiting coach agreed that it was not the correct name. It was also incorrect in the visiting book they provided to begin the game. I don't believe it was a case of two players that just had the numbers switched either.

That depends on your state. Here playing in more than your allowed quarter is technical foul and disqualification. So here it is our concern.

Reminds me an odd one from pre-season:

Assigner sends me and a college veteran official to a tiny, 66ish-foot gym for a middle school pair. I'm the R for game one, and it's the first time I've ever seen the book with FIRST names only.

It gave me pause, but I left it alone. Never bothered to follow up if it was legal.

Tiny middle schools can be fun -- homemade concessions, stopping to teach the kids what they did wrong, and some old timer in the crowd asking if there is a "10-point rule." (Must be a can't-press thing.)

3-2-2:
At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team shall supply the official scorer with the NAME and NUMBER of each team member and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul. (10-1-1 PENALTY)

A name and number was provided. The name was later changed. You cannot find any citations which state that changing the name is a technical.

The rule doesn't state, as you quoted "A" name and number to be provided. The rule requires THE name and number of each team member...

Words mean things. "A" is very different from "THE".

I am of the opinion that supplying name X instead of name Y is a failure to supply name Y. I would penalize this with a technical foul.

The right names are needed. It's not okay to have kids playing under other names.

I would not allow a coach to submit a roster with the names of the 1987 Celtics. It would be amusing, but improper.

I wouldn't know if he submitted a roster full of phony names.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

Fundamentally, a number is not a player, it is something used to identify a player. If I were tell you #23 is playing, do you know who that is? Would you be OK if the book said Joe Schmo when Michael Jordan took the court? Jordan was not on that roster even if his number was. The number could be anyone's.

If the name is not in the book, it must be added. If someone else's name has their number, that must be changed too.

I was thinking the same thing. If I saw a roster that said:

5 John
11 John
13 John
22 John
25 John
30 John
31 John
43 John
44 John

...Then I think I 'd have a problem with that.

It is truly a small world. VG game tonight: I checked the book, and the visitors' side had........... no names at all. I asked the scorer if the list submitted included names. She said it did, then picked it up and showed it to me. Apparently she didn't care what the names were, and after a moment of consideration I decided I didn't either. Play on. But take this deeper. These teams didn't know each other, but let's say they did. Middle of the second quarter a sub enters. Buzzer sounds and the scorer waves us over. 13's name is wrong in the book. She's not Mary Smith, she's Mary Jones. Let's just say that it's a given that this is illegal. (obviously this issue is in doubt)
Official: "Coach, she says 13's name is wrong in the book."

Coach: "Let me see! Uh..... no! That's her name, yeah that's it, Mary Smith. That's my story and I'm sticking to it."

What are you gonna do, ask for her ID?

Some things are readily handled by the referee of the game, with others it may be better to report them to the governing authority of the contest whether that be the league commissioner, school ADs, or state office. They can always decide to penalize unethical behavior at a later time.

That would probably be an issue for the state and they may very well forfeit the game for playing with a player not actually on the team. But not much more that you can do about it.

The names are there for the opposing team's preparation. The coaches instruct the players who they will guarding. If the roster said the starters were John, Dave, etc. but Brad, Chuck, etc. stepped on the floor wearing the numbers listed as starters, that would be wrong, unfair, and not in the spirit of the game. The purpose of providing the names is for the opposing coach to know who is actually starting. They don't make defensive assignments on numbers but on players.

If it turned out to be an elaborate ruse like that, I could see going with the T, but not under the rules cited above, but rather as a deliberate unsportsmanlike act. The OP paints a picture of one wrong name, which is not even noticed until after the fact, and quite often might not be noticed/mentioned at all. I don't think the intent and purpose of the rule is for a T here.

I'm going to write it up and send it to the state. I imagine when the state writes the coach, he will be making a contribution back to the state.

A team that is making a habit of not putting names in the score book is likely trying to skirt the rules on playing limits. I'm probably writing that up as well.

Maybe each player is identified by his favorite New Testament scripture.

Why be a d-bag and give a T for something like this? It has no bearing on the game at all. Who cares what their name is? All we really need is the correct amount of players in the book with their correct number. I couldn't care less what their real name is to some degree. If it's a simple error on one name and not an obvious skirting of the rules I'm not going to worry about it.

I'm always amazed at the lengths some members of this forum will go to get themselves noticed with an unnecessary technical foul.

Doesn't say it has to be the correct name. We only report the fouls by using numbers. Names don't mean much.

I meant book keeping error, which I'm treating it as and not issuing a T.

Well, since this doesn't involve a coach or player technical nobody is bailing anyone out of anything.

I'm always amazed at the lengths that some will go to to penalize teams who are not gaining any advantage not intended by rule by enforcing the strictest possible interpretation of some rules.

The roster is used for more than just reporting fouls. Let's say you had an ejection or a concussion during a game and were filing the report the next day with the conference and state. In your report you state that you ejected #8 for fighting or did not allow him or her to participate because they were exhibiting concussion symptoms. The conference and state then ask you "What was #8's name?" Good luck with your response of "I didn't want to be a d-bag and give a T for something like this" so I chose to not enforce the rule and as a result don't have a name.

I know of a situation where a school played a kid for 5 years. The investigation looked into book keeping for those 5 years; including JV game books. The school was stripped of a conference championship because books showed the kid played high school basketball for 5 years.

Here, the conference and state are not going to ask the official what was #8's name. (an illegal number btw :)). That information will be corroborated by the appropriate administering authorities through previous scorebooks or other means.

Officials do not know player's names for the most part any way so these hypotheticals are off base.

Again, if there is any reason to believe a wrong name was purposely used then a T would be warranted. But based on the OP it simply sounds like the visiting book just wrote down the wrong name. It was noticed and corrected.

Bookeeping error and move on. I swear some folks just like putting S in the game.

Would you enforce if the visitors just wrote down the wrong number?

...especially if Len Bias's name were listed.

Yes, as "changing a number" is clearly listed in the rules book. Changing a name is not.

But true story. Last week I worked a game between a private school my HS association covers and a public school that we don't cover.

At the start of the 4th quarter I'm called over to the table and told #13 is not in the book and had foul on them at the end of the 3rd. I check both books and #13 is not in either.

I was the U2, I talk to R at half court and say, "we have a T situation for wrong number in book." He says, "on who, visitors?". Me- "yup". R- "$*!%" For context, the dynamic of the game was that the V team felt like they were getting screwed based on foul discrepancy. Of course they weren't. The H team was just longer and better with some future D-1 front court players they couldn't handle. But there is a history of perception and some other dynamics at play that the R clearly did not want a T issued and says basically "handle it" or something to that affect.

I walk back over to table and visiting book and asst coach have flipped back in book to a previous game and indicate that #13 is actually #15 and they just wrote the number down wrong. I have it corrected in both books and tell H coach we are not going with a T as I'm treating it as a book keeping error and he says, "great, let's play." Signal to R we are ready to start the 4th as he is across the table ready to administer the throw in.

FWIW and additional context, I'm the R for about 90% for my HS games and have worked multiple state championships. The U1 was our association president, and the R is a D-1 official and also a high ranking officer in the military.

I'm sure many here will be appalled by our "blatant disregard" for the rules or some rhetoric but the fact is we were 3 veteran officials who ALL determined that a T in that situation was not warranted and would only make the game worse. Sometimes discretion and a little critical thinking are required.

In general with a book issue I have some leniency within reason. For example, if info is supplied at 9:50 instead of 10 minutes I'm not issuing a T where some here probably would. But I have confidence in my decision making and full support from my assigner.

In the OP situation, did we ask why the wrong name was in the book? Sometimes people just write down the wrong thing and unless there is reason to believe otherwise, I'm treating a name change as a book keeping error and playing the game.

If there is an ejection, or if the other team brings up an issue such as playing time requirements, then we have different situations. But again, if there is no reason to believe its more than just writing down the wrong name I'm not issuing a T. IMO this is one of the ways to be that guy. And that guy does not get the best schedules and is less well regarded in my neck of the woods.

But adding a name is. If the name isn't there, it has to be added. The resumption is that the name is the golden value and numbers are changed to match them. If the name isn't there at all, then it is added and given a number.

So unlike in the OP, where it was determined the wrong name was supplied to both scorers, you determined the right number was supplied to the scorers and then you followed the rule and had the scorer correct their error. Literally a completely different scenario where you would have been wrong to issue a T by rule.

I'm not sure you really have a handle on this rule in the first place.

Here's a tangential question that your post got me thinking about. This has happened a couple times this season to me, where they are at 9:30 or so and finishing up names in the book. I'm not issuing a T here because I don't have the clout around here to do that in my opinion. As I've mentioned in other threads, our tourney games are solely based on coaches' recommendations (i.e. no recs, they won't even consider you). However, at what point do you issue the T? What is your cut-off? If the opposing coach is savvy about the rule and gives you a hard time, what is your response? How would your supervisor respond? Just curious what everyone's take on this is.

It doesn't matter when they finish filling out the book. The only thing that matters is when the list of names and numbers is presented to the scorer. That list, not the book, is what the rule hinges on.

The custom here is to check the book with 8:00 left before the game. If the scorer hasn't received the list by then, it's going to be a T. Unless the scorer tells me when she has received the list (and that's never happened) I don't know exactly when they get it.

A different state I used to live in had the custom to check the book at 12:00. That let us prompt the coach for the roster so he couldn't screw it up.

What if the reasoning for the wrong name was this?

Book reads
Jim Smith #5
Dan Jones #15

Real Info
Jim Smith #15
Dan Jones #5

So now we issue a T for changing numbers bc we don't have the right number listed with the right player correct or is this also a book keeper error? What if it is bc the kids switched jerseys without telling their coach?

He most definitely has a handle on the rule. He stated that the #13 was not supplied to the scorekeeper and was not in either book. He said they found an older game in the visitor's book and #13 used to be #15.

If you are going to accuse of folks of being afraid to enforce the rules or not having a "handle on this rule in the first place", you need read for detail a little better.

No, he said he checked both books and it wasn't in either of them. He said nothing about looking at the roster which was supplied. He didn't look at earlier games either until after he told the R they had a technical situation.

Almost all high school games I work (in the same state a VaTerp), the visiting book is the "roster" that is provided.

So what part of the rule is it that VaTerp doesn't have a handle on?

In that case, I was probably unfair in that assessment. Almost as unfair as you were for saying I need to pay better attention to details that weren't in the post.

Assuming there was no separate roster provide, is there anyone here would would not use the prior game as the roster if that caused it to be a bookkeeping error? That actually fits both the letter and the spirit of the rule.

Agree to disagree I guess. There was a name and number in the book. The rules clearly state how "changing" a number should be handled. It is not clear on "changing" a name. "Adding" is not the same as "changing."

I'm quite sure that you don't have a handle on the situation I described or my grasp of the rule.

Exactly.

What is common here is you use the current game as the roster. The visitors show up with their half of the book filled out for that nights game. The home book keeper copies down that info. I would only look at that nights game. The previous games would not be the roster they submitted that night.

In the OP I do not see how it can't be a violation of rule 10-1-1. Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate.

John Doe participated yet his name was not supplied to the scorer.

If they had two names switched than they did not violate 10-1-1 However then they would need a number change and have violated 10-1-2c

In my case, they had a roster that the V asst coach gave to the person doing V's book, which was then supplied to the official scorer. They all had it wrong.

They flipped back to a book to say where it was correct but I did not even look. I got it corrected and moved on.

IMO too many here our too concerned with litigating every technicality of their interpretation of a rule that is outside of the spirit of the rule.

If that works for you or is the expectation where you work then so be it. Thankfully, that's not the case for me and my assigners.

Did you ask/determine how the wrong name ended up in the V book?

I work for 2 HS commissioners. One of the them has explicitly stated that he wants us to make "good decisions". If they sometimes fall outside the letter of the law, he'll take the heat.

I was not at the game. To my knowledge the name was just wrote in incorrectly.

The only 3 scenarios I can really think of are

1. #5 Jv players name was wrote in for #5 in Varsity book
2. Two players have switched jerseys.
3. Complete brain fart.

Good example. You can't decide to switch names to avoid the T vs switching the numbers.

That works for me. Wouldn't the roster be what they presented to the actually book keeper and not what was a game or two before? If the visiting book keeper filled out that nights wrong then that is what is presented to the home book keeper than the roster was incorrect. However if they presented the previous games info to the home scorekeeper than they copied that wrong I would see that as a book keeping error.

If he doesn't explicitly say, in writing, to not follow the rules if they produce an unintended bad result, I would not trust him to take the heat if a decision you make blows up in his face.

I trust him 100% in regards to his proclamation. He is a nationally known official, and locally he is known for his charitable works. He is probably the most bluntly honest person I have ever met in my life. Unless I have totally misjudged him in the last 3 years I've come to know him, he is the last person I would expect to weasel out of taking responsibility.

Additionally, he didn't say "not follow the rules if they produce an unintended bad result", he said to make "good decisions". He is very big on situational decision-making and context.

Hopefully you don't work for supervisors who would not stand behind their words.

Yes, that's a T. Specifically in the rule or a case.

I don't have the context of your relationship and my opinion is colored by my real life line of work.

"Good decisions" sounds like the kind of code words I expect to hear someone who wants a certain result but also wants plausible deniability when asked if they directed that result. I would not expect someone who says that to stand behind me if I followed their advice.

However, if the sentiment is more "make the best decisions possible within the rules" and less "make good decisions [and the rules be damned]." that's a different kettle of fish.

So what you are saying is that some of you guys, you included, have no clue the names of the players without help from the book? How is that possible? I'm not saying I know the names of every player I see during the year, but I know a lot of them.

So if their correct name is not in the book, you have NO way of finding out their correct name?

I might see a team twice in a year. I don't work games for my local school. Why (and how) would I know their names. I could see how you might do a little research ahead of time for varsity games and learn about a star or two but other than that?

If I need a player's name (injury, ejection, etc) I ask the scorer to write it down for me.

I'm not interested in the names of players. I know the better ones but that's not my job. I don't call any player by name. There should be names next to numbers in the book but I'm not checking birth certificates or drivers licenses. If you list a kid as superman number 22 I'm not addressing it...at all. Now if you want to say superman is number 10 instead of 22 after 10 minute mark its a problem....and I know they're are quarter limits etc in high school but that would be for someone else to take up with the conference etc.

As someone who has coached and officiated in 3 states and worked in sports media in different capacities I would say the above is not at all accurate in my experience.

The names in the book are primarily for stat keeping and the media, not coaches' preparation. I coached against several future NBA players as a HS assistant. When watching tape and instructing players on how to guard/attack certain players we always said #32 likes to do this, not Jeff Green does this.

Coaches go by numbers not names, especially when if its not a star player or a local rivalry and they are unlikely to even know most of the kid's names. And coaches are especially not going by the name in the book 10 minutes before they play to rely on preparation. What if #32 and #23 decide to switch numbers before the game and are both entered into the book correctly?

Short of an ejection, injury, or some issue for a sanctioning body to worry about that carries over to the next game the name in the book is not really a concern to me as an official.

If it was a mistake and the names were just entered wrong, I'm calling it a book keeping error and moving on.

What matters to me is that for the purposes of calling fouls, #32 on the floor is #32 in the book.

What I think matters is how the mistake is discovered. Is the home book or a coach saying #32 is not Johnny? Is the visiting book pointing out their own error and correcting it?

Again, short of some sort of intentional deception or trying to circumvent a rule/punishment I'm not issuing a T b/c I don't think the situation warrants it and I have support from my commissioner to use my judgment.


See above. I can and will if I think it was simply a mistake in writing the names.

To be clear, in the example I gave a T should have been awarded by rule. A book keeping error is limited to the official scorer. If the info supplied is wrong and requires the number to be changed a T is warranted. I/We decided to bend the rules and extend the book keeping error to the V book who had the number incorrect on their roster and in the book. They said they had 2 rosters and used the wrong one.

What I'm arguing is that there is more latitude with a name change as my reading of the rule does not require a T.

Do you have a reference?

My two cents here: not calling the T if warranted in these situations can cause more trouble than just calling it sometimes. What happens when it’s late game and it affects the outcome. I can see both sides of the OP but I would argue that anyone issuing a T is not being OO, just that the interp is adding a name is same as changing a name. I can also understand calling a bookkeeping error. If it happens to me, I’ll go with my gut at the moment.

In fast pitch, we have team warning for changes after lineup accepted. After that, coach is restricted to dugout. Much easier in that sport


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk