0 vs. 00
 

NFHS game. A6, wearing 00, is summoned into the game. Scorer summons the official to the table and notifies him that the player is listed as 0 in the book. Do you have a technical foul for an incorrect number?

No. They can only have one anyway. I would not at all consider that anything but a bookkeeping mistake. They are not trying to deceive anyone IMO.

Peace

What was on the roster given to the book?

I assuming your asking this because if the roster had 00, then it was a bookkeeping error and if it was 0, then a different result should be applied?

Isn't it the job of the head coach to ensure the numbers match the kids playing? The scorekeeper is only there to keep record of the names and numbers. This is probably a good reason to have the head coach check their book before a game starts.

In either case, I don't think I would call a technical here.

Only required to provide the roster.

0 vs. 00
 

I have had a coach check or sign the book.

I won't knock anyone who does this, but I haven't and won't.


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Can you cite this?

It's not something I ever really care about it, I go by what is in the official scorebook, but I have seen this come up.

The away coach has their roster in their scorebook and the scorekeeper gets the one out of the game program which ends of being different. That night I happened to take the book over to the visiting coach who noticed the error, we got it corrected.

Just curious if this hadn't been caught..

“A team shall not:

ART. 1 . . . Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.” (10-1-1)

It's not the coach's job to make sure the scorer inputs the numbers correctly.

It is the job of the coach to ensure a proper roster is submitted, not to check the book to see if the scorekeeper properly entered the data.

Additionally, it must only be provided to the scorer in time. If the official book is blank even as late as 0:00 in warmups, there is still no penalty to the team(s).

Agreed however do you feel/react the same way if it was 1 vs 11?

This is one of many reasons why I check the books before the 10 minute mark. Anything glaringly out of wack can be corrected. There have been times where I get a legitimate explanation/reason for a delayed book. That is good to know in advance instead of at/below 10 mins.

By rule 1 and 11 are two different numbers. The two numbers 0 and 00 are considered the same by rule basically. That is why they are not allowed to be used at the same time because computers cannot distinguish the both 0 and 00 as different numbers. But if we find out that the scorekeeper incorrectly copied

Peace

Yea, I understand.

Now I must throw in my 2 cents regarding technology or lack thereof. Based on what you said, if computer programs can distinguish between 1 and 11 as being different numbers, that must mean the computer program can recognize a null value in the tens place. Therefore, why couldn't the same program do the same for the number 0? I hate computers. All they do is reflect the imperfections of humans:)

<puts on computer programmer hat>
Depends on if you're storing the values as a String (characters) or as an Integer (number).

Computers store everything in binary, as a combination of 1s and 0s. Assuming we're using 8-bit notation (that is, 8 slots per number) if we're storing just Integers, there's no difference between 0 and 00, because they're both stored as 00000000. 1 is stored as 00000001, 2 is stored as 00000010, 3 is stored as 00000011, 4 is stored as 00000100, etc... 11 is stored as 00001011.

String values are handled differently... each "letter" has it's own 8-bit value. Assuming we're using ASCII notation, the 8-bit value for 0 is 00110000, which would be repeated twice for 00, so 0011000000110000. 11 would be 0011000100110001.

Of course, there are many different types of character encoding schemes (UTF-8, UTF-16, UTF-32, ISO8859, Windows 1252, and many many more, all of them work similarly to ASCII, but the actual binary value of a particular character may be different)

<takes off computer programmer hat>

You may commence shouting "Shut Up, Nerd!" at me at your earliest convenience.

I am assuming because the value of 0 is the same value of 00 if stated. The only reason you would have 00 in the first place is for numbering purposes like our sport. Otherwise if you ad 0 or 00 to anything, it has the same value mathematically. And I am sure someone has made something that could distinguish the two numbers differences, but at the time this rule was put in place, I doubt that was universal and probably still not universal in all computer programs. The numbers 1 and 11 are two different numbers and have different values.

Peace

No, that was helpful. Very helpful!!!!

Peace

FWIW, here's what our charter clinician said:

"As you know, according to rule 3-4-3d. A team shall not have both #'s of 0 and 00.

Simply a clerical thing here. The intent isn't to penalize a team in this situation."

Perfect, perfect, perfect! I almost spewed Mt. Dew on my 4 monitors. I was shouting "Go on, please continue!" although it was at a later convenience, not the earliest.:rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_number_format

I see I have found my people. Hello nerds!

Yes, welcome!. As you know, there 10 kinds of people in the world: those who understand binary and those who don't. :D

But, of course, hexidecimal is much easier to read.

Faith And Begorrah ...
 

Reminds me of one of my late Dad's (a proud Irish American) favorite lines.

"There are two kinds of Irishmen. Those that are great singers, and those that think that they are great singers."

(Camron Rust: Thanks for bringing up a great memory of my Dad for me.)

Oh, not this argument again. It has nothing to do with the leading zero problem, except for the demonstration of a null value in the tens place.

Because 0 and 00 are different numbers in the rulebook but the same number mathematically, there's a bit of wiggle room as to how to handle the situation. (For the following notes, I will use an underscore to denote a null value in the tens place.)

• _1 and 01 are equivalent, and both correspond to the player wearing the actual number 1. If a player actually wears 01, that's a technical foul regardless of what they were listed as in the book.
  Neither _1 nor 01 is equivalent to 11. If a player is listed as _1 or 01, and actually wears 11, that's a technical foul.
  _0 and 00 are, by themselves, equivalent, and both correspond to the player wearing the actual number 0 or 00. However, if a team has both an _0 wearing 00 and an 01 wearing 1, or both an 00 wearing 0 and a _1 wearing 1, it's a bit trickier. If I see _0 and 01 (or 00 and _1) in the book, I would remind the coach that 0 and 00 are different numbers, but not consider it a technical foul.

As mentioned in my signature, I am not an official, but I've been on this forum long enough to know the relevant rules.