Duke v Mich State
 

Video Request:
6:02 remaining in the second half.

Jay Bilas stated that the official Lamont Simpson told him that it was "a live-ball, contact technical foul."

What???

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ow-thrown.html

If these could be merged?

My opinion is a flagrant 2 (personal) foul.

Yeah that’s not a thing. I also have a Flagrant 2 on the play.

I just saw the play, I am very confused. There is no such foul? This is either a Flagrant Foul (1 or 2) or nothing. The ball was clearly live and you cannot give the ball at the division line for this kind of T. I think the officials out talked themselves on this one.

Peace

Video of the play
 

Here is the play.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/48QpSStUBO0" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

It looked to me like he was trying to slap away the arm of the MSU player that was holding onto him, not slinging an elbow. The elbow making contact was "incidental" to that (and I don't mean to say this was incidental contact).

I could go with an F1, but I do not believe there was an intent to harm here.

I can see what you're saying, but he still hit the guy in the face with his elbow. I think he got off easy. I think that level of recklessness should be treated similarly to if he'd blatantly elbowed him in the face.

Meh. It’s not like he wound up and slammed him. Did you see that little, “oops, crap I hit his head” look on his face? F1.

Wrong guy shot FTs, ball was inbounded 47 feet from where it should have been, and now the offender is only one vice two Ts from ejection. It’s really bad to kick a rule at this level; it’s even worse to make up a new type of foul on the fly. That was a big oops. Shouldn’t have happened.


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I have an F1. He didn't size up or target the opponent, and he didn't "throw" an elbow. He was attempting to swat away the hand the was pulling on his jersey; he didn't even know where the opponents face was. No way in hell that warrants an ejection.

I am extremely bothered that the adjudication was botched.

It wasn't even reckless. Players swat away opponents' hands all the time. It wasn't even a demonstrative movement. Treating those 2 acts the same would be detrimental to a basketball official's career.

I'd have a hard time ejecting a player for what is clearly an accidental elbow. From what I see Carter was simply trying to slap away the defenders arm, as the defender grabbed his jersey.

Going strictly by the rules, this may indeed be a FF2... which includes ejection. But a FF1 would suffice. What doesn't work at all is making something up.

Does the jersey grab (an Int foul in NFHS) also count as an FF1 in NCAA?? If so, why not double foul call here?

A jersey grab isn't automatically an intentional foul in NFHS. Usually it's a common foul for holding. It, along with any other type of contact foul, is intentional in NFHS if it meets the parameters of such.

As to the subject of whether you could call a double personal foul here....sure, you could. But, I'd probably be passing on the marginal jersey hold and then get surprised by the elbow. I'd be reluctant, at that point, to re-evaluate the hold as something more than marginal just because of how the other guy reacted. I want to get the big foul here.

If the two fouls were a little more bang-bang, then maybe DPF makes sense. Otherwise I'm probably not calling it that way. I like to save my DPFs for those few times in a season where they really stand out as a good use of a tool. This wouldn't be one of those times, IMHO.

#1) This plays illustrates why the Trail should never leave opponents unmonitored in the backcourt.

#2) This is why you don't pass on players intentionally pulling the jersey of an opponent.

#1) Great point.

#2) I went back and looked at the video again, and you're right, this is more egregious than I first thought. The replay angles don't show it well, but the live angle at the very beginning of the clip was telling. B34's shirt was pulled at a 30° angle. Yeah, that's probably not a hold one should pass on. Still a common foul, though.

Intent doesn't matter a whit to me. I look at mode of contact (elbow) and location of contact (head and neck area), and whether the contact is excessive/unnecessary or excessive and also severe/extreme.

For me, this contact is excessive and severe. Therefore, Flagrant 2. I have a Flagrant 1 for the jersey pull.

It was none of those bolded items. And being so rigid, without taking into account context clues, would not bode well for moving up the college ranks.

I know Lamont and one thought that comes to my mind is that he has officiated and officiates so many levels. His words may have been inexact due to wording used in other areas, like the WNBA for example. Not saying he is correct/incorrect, just adding that crosstalk among many levels (WNBA, NBA, NCAA, FIBA, NFHS, etc.) can get mixed.

I am sure that is what happened, but also they gave the ball to the offended team at the division line. The only way I can think that can happen is if you call a Dead Ball Technical (which this was not) or an FF2, which they clearly did not eject the offending player. So not sure what happened? I might have to go back and look at the video to make sure where the ball was, but it was not near the division line to my understanding.

Peace

Then Teddy V or Driscoll should have corrected Lamont. But you can see Teddy say at one point "half court", so the whole crew eats that, not just Lamont.

So you’re saying this is not a Flagrant 1 foul? The first of those bolded items you called out refers to a Flagrant 1.

You said FF2.

Teddy was right there, not sure why he passed on the jersey hold. had he immediately called an FF1 for that, there may have been no escalation. Duke player, being held, simply tried to swipe away holding hand without looking back, and inadvertently (IMO) hit the MSU player... above the shoulders. Ball was at mid-court. Teddy allowed play to continue. Now, at dead ball, they review.

Many have offered their opinion. I would have just went with double F1's.

(I noticed, at 1:58, that JD (looks like him) is at the table.)

I would like to think I would have had double F1's on this. I do know I would not have left the players, especially 2 bigs.

That was Collins at the table.

You said it was “none of those bolded items”. And the first part of the section you bolded was the Flagrant 1 language, the second part was the Flagrant 2 language. Thus, “none of those bolded items” means neither Flagrant 1 nor Flagrant 2. Just wanted to clear that up.

This is what I had on the play. You can only see it on the very first original view. all the rest don't show the jersey grab. Glad I wasn't the only one who thought that was a strange enforcement. I would have had double F1 on both players in this sitch.

The NCAA Women's rules i know allow for ANY player to shoot the 2 free throws so the "the wrong guy" could not be shooting if it same in mens. Also it is a division line throw in in NCAAW. Again not sure of mens.

The men did not adopt those changes.

The videos won't run on my computer - internet explorer 11. Are there some setting issues? Google chrome?

Well, the fact it is Internet Explorer is the first problem. But any YouTube Video should run in most situations. I guess it would depend on how old your computer is or sometimes if you are work or using a certain internet service (at a school or work) then you cannot get to pages like YouTube.

I use Firefox and it works well. I have had not issues in the past using Edge or Chrome. Chrome after all is a Google product that runs YouTube.

Peace

Chrome ...
 

Same problem here. I like Internet Explorer 11, but when I want to see Forum videos, I go to Chrome. No problems with Chrome.

Does your system now have Microsoft Edge?

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Internet Explorer 11 ...
 

I believe that I can download it.

I'll stick to Internet Explorer 11. With the exception of the inability to show low definition videos (high definition videos always work), I like the features of Internet Explorer 11.

Why do you ask?

Just wondering if you or the OP had tried that since IE11 wasn't working.

I am using my office computer, so some limitations. I can access the forum on Google Chrome - videos work Thanks for the help.

I am using my office computer, so some limitations. I can access the forum on Google Chrome - videos work Thanks for the help.

I'm at work. My IE11 will not load the embedded videos, but Edge will. Just tested it with Chrome, and works there also.