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Straddling the division line
B1 deflects the ball away from A1 who is dribbling in the frontcourt. The ball is rolling towards the backcourt and is picked up by A2 who is straddling the division line.
Whats the call? |
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Team A maintains team control of the ball when the ball was knocked away from A1 by B1. The ball also maintains front court status until it touches the backcourt. A2 is in the backcourt because he has one foot touching in the backcourt. If the Ball still has front court status then A2 has committed a backcourt violation when he touches the Ball; A2 simultaneously is the last person to touch the ball in his team's front court and the first to touch the ball after causing the ball to go to his team's backcourt. If the Ball has acquired backcourt status before A2 touches the ball then there is no violation when A2 touches the ball. MTD, Sr. |
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I agree with Kelvin and so does the text of the NFHS rule, but the NFHS interpretations agree with MTD. :confused:
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That’s the rub. The interp that has vexed us all for several years was recently reinforced, no? I don’t like the interp. However, I acknowledge its authority and would strive to apply it if such a play confronted me. I’m just not certain I’ll recognize it quickly enough when 99% of my brain cells will be saying, “ok, defense touched it last, so they can recover anywhere.” Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
My immediate response was "no violation" because I too think "B deflected the ball into the backcourt, so I'm giving the 'tip' signal." But a little something in my brain said "wait" because of that interpretation. It makes no sense to me that if A2 first let the ball touch the backcourt then there wouldn't be a backcourt violation.
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If A was straddling the sideline, A caused the ball to go out of bounds. Same applies here. Hopefully makes it easier to understand. Backcourt violation on A.
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It's not a violation to "cause the ball to go to the backcourt" like it's a violation to "cause the ball to go out of bounds" |
This is not a violation. A was not last to touch in the frontcourt.
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A was not the last to touch the ball before the ball returned to the backcourt. The location of the touch is not important but the timing of the touch relative to the time the ball goes from frontcourt to backcourt is what is important. |
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I am not understanding the confusion here. When you straddle the division line, by rule you are located in the BC. If you touch a ball that has yet to reach BC status, then you have violated the backcourt rule. If the all touched the BC and then you touch the ball while straddling the line, then you are still in the BC and the ball had maintained BC status. The OP never said what happened to the ball clearly after the deflection.
So if the ball had FC status and then touched by a player located in the BC, the violation is because the player caused the ball to be in the BC. Peace |
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I don't like the simultaneous interp because the rule clearly says team has to be last AND first. that means one after the other to me. two touches.... |
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I get the rub here, but I also think this is a case play and the NF has determined this is a violation, so I would go with a violation. That is what interpretations are supposed to do, clarify holes in the wording of the rules. Peace |
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It is entirely possible to have a backcourt violation without every having the the offensive team touch the ball in the frontcourt (or, in a different play, backcourt). EXAMPLE: A1, in the backcourt, throws a bounce pass across the court to A2, who is also in the backcourt. However, the bounce during the pass was in the frontcourt. Team control...ball obtains frontcourt status...ball returns the backcourt when caught by A2 (or maybe a 2nd bounce occurred in the BC before A2 caught it). A1 was the last to touch BEFORE the ball returned to the backcourt. A2 was the first to touch AFTER it returned. Yet, neither touched it in the frontcourt. When the ball goes from frontcourt to the backcourt, you have to ask 3 things: 1. Was there team control inbounds at the time? 2. Was team A the last to touch it (anywhere) before it did so? 3. Was team A the next to touch it (anywhere) after it did so? Yes to all is a violation. No to any is legal. |
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You have to be the first to touch the ball AFTER IT HAS BEEN in the backcourt. That's why the timing is more important than the location of the touch. For example: A1 is trapped in the frontcourt near the division line. A1 extends the ball over the backcourt in order to throw a bounce pass around the trap. The bounce pass touches the division line and then is caught be A2 who is standing in the frontcourt. This is a backcourt violation even though no one touched the ball while it was in the backcourt. However, A2 was the first to touch the ball AFTER IT HAD BEEN in the backcourt. TWEET! |
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A1, in front court, passes the ball which B1 deflects. The ball bounces closely and parallel to the division line, staying in front court. A1 runs into the back court. With both feet in the backcourt, and the ball still in front court, A1 reaches over the division line and touches/possesses the ball. I don't see how this couldn't be a backcourt violation. A1 clearly causes the ball to have backcourt status. Just as A1 would cause the ball to have backcourt status if straddling the division line. Just as A1 would cause the ball to have back court status if the deflection caused the ball to bounce in front court then in the air over the backcourt where A1 touches the ball before it obtains back court status. If this truly is the intent, it could and should be written more clearly in the rules. |
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(I agree it *should not* be a violation, but the NFHS has said that it is.) |
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From Nevada... A1 is standing in his backcourt near the division line while holding the ball. B1 is guarding A1 while standing on the other side of the division line (in Team A's frontcourt). A1 attempts to throw a forward pass to A2. B1 jumps into the air and blocks the ball. The batted ball returns to A1 in flight (without contacting the court) who catches. What is your ruling? |
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Now, in my play, if that's what the interp says then ok. But if we're saying my play is that way because of that interp then I'm not convinced. |
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A had PC inbounds. The ball reached the FC. A1 was (in the plays being discussed) touched the ball in the air, coming from the FC while A1 was in the BC and before the ball hit the floor in the BC. All such plays are violations in NFHS. These plays are NOT violations in NCAA. If the ball hits the floor first in the BC (and was deflected by B in the FC), then these plays are not violations in FED. |
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The part about straddling the line is the key, because the player is touching both the FC and BC at the same time. If he's not straddling the line the interp does not seem to apply. |
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The interp has nothing to do with A's position other than being in the BC. |
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Yeah, eloquent writing is not among my skill set. |
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Now, lets say that such a pass was across the court where the bounce was just in the FC just across the division line. Then, A2, also in the BC, then catches that pass. When A2 catches the the ball, it gains BC status again due to A2's location. Violation. That pass could also bounce off an official or the backboard and return to the backcourt without otherwise being touched. Those would be unlikely scenarios, however. |
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B1 touches the ball in the air, after jumping from the FC. Why is B1 not the last to touch the ball while it had FC status? Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk |
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You want logic. But most agree the interp is illogical. But the interp says that by touching the ball that has FC status, the player in the backcourt is simultaneously the last to touch the ball with FC status and the first to touch with BC status. So it's a violation. Because they say so. You can read and reread and reread the text of the rule, and you'll never get there. It's what the interp says, whether it makes any sense or not. |
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While I don't agree, I called and spoke to a member of the NFHS rules committee. He is a personal friend and he is also one of the 4 IAABO national interpreters (and I know that means nothing to some here :D). He told me the rationale for the ruling is that the player straddling the line is simultaneously the last person to touch in the frontcourt and the first person to touch in the backcourt and therefore this is to be ruled a backcourt violation in NFHS. For the record, he disagrees but said he has been overruled on this discussion many times as it is a question that is continually submitted.
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2. B1 is not A1's teammate, so the touch by B1 from Team A's FC should not be the issue. If the Fed wants it to be a backcourt violation, then so be it, but there is zero logic behind what you're saying. The "last to touch, first to touch" thing involves players from the same team... not opposing ones. |
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It is an interpretation. I get it that it is not popular, but those are the interpretations, right? What do we do when someone calls us to the carpet on the interpretation and we called something different? Peace |
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It isn't that we're just disagreeing with an interpretation. The interpretation itself contradicts the rule. As such, we have two opposing rulings, both of which can't be correct. We're going with the one that has been there for 50+ years vs. one that came out of nowhere. The new interpretation can't be correct without a rule change. |
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It makes no difference to me. I think people worry about these things too much anyway. This is not likely to happen in most situations because players are afraid of even being close to the line in the first place even when they are allowed by rule to be there. I just find the position you take as funny. Now you do not agree with the ruling, but when you do, "We cannot waiver or make up our own rules." OK. LOL!!! Just like the other BC situation the NF made clear they wanted to stick with, I am going to call it that way. Maybe the rule will change when they realize how stupid it sounds. The best way to change a rule is to call it the way they want. I got enough juice to do that and do not care if someone does not like it. Let them argue with the interpretations and get them changed. Peace |
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It isn't what I think here. I AM still saying follow the NFHS . The NFHS is just saying things that are contradictory. One of them is inconsistent with the rules and principles in many ways so it makes it easy to see for anyone that doesn't just want to pick a fight which on should be the correct one to apply. |
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Look, none of us are likely to ever work with each other. We do not work in the other's states. We have to answer to those we work for and the NF certainly is not one of those people I have to answer to in any state I work for. We do not work in the same associations. So honestly who cares? I just find it funny when the people that love to get on their high horse all these years now want to get mad another contradiction or misinformation from the NF. Call it the way you can explain. Then again, this is the NF official interpretation. We know how important those things are to you. I clearly get it, I am just having fun watching. Peace |
I don't think there is a contradiction between the rules as they are written and the interpretation. Ball status is clearly defined. Rule 9 Section 9 Art 1 clearly states that the player A cannot touch the ball in the back court, after the front court deflection by B, before the ball goes back to the back court. It cannot be back in the back court until it takes a bounce.
Am I missing something? |
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Peace |
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Peace |
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In my mind, I guess B1 touching the ball should give A1 the ability to go get it free of consequence. I think they made this unnecessarily complicated but whatever. That's why they make the big bucks, and I'm driving 30 miles to a 2A school tonight to make $95. |
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The interp says that the catch of the ball by A1 in his BC is both the last touch in the FC and the first touch in the BC. Problem is there's only one touch. Last and first means there are two touches. A last and then a first.....That's what 9-9-1 says. We dont have word simultaneous. 2. Also, grammatically, the wording of the rule about the last touch refers to the player's location. The last touch under 9-9-1 has to be by a player in FC. |
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If the ball does not take a bounce in the back court then it still has front court status because B1 touched it in the front court. So if A1 touches it before the bounce, while A1 is in the back court, then it is a violation. |
If this situation plays out and you call a BC violation, I think coach on the violating team is going to lose his mind. It is the correct call but the coach is going to think otherwise.
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Whether it bounces or not DOES matter by words of the rule. The last six words are "before it went to the backcourt". "It" meaning the ball. The ball is not in the backcourt until it touches the floor in the backcourt. |
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And again, I believe the last to touch in FC refers to the physical location of the player. An A had to be IN FC and touch ball. Touching a ball that has FC status does not mean the player is in FC. Again, I believe the moment it's touched in BC the ball has BC status. Don't agree that single touch means both |
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A is only prohibited from being the first to touch it in the backcourt (which they are) if and ONLY if A was the last to touch it with FC status BEFORE it returned to A in the backcourt. The key is the word BEFORE. A's touch in the backcourt can not be BEFORE A's touch in the backcourt. The RULE: Quote:
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My understanding of the rule is consistent with the interpretation. I get it.
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I had a situation that would be similar to this this year. A1 passing the ball around the perimeter to A2 while in the FC. B1 deflects the pass and the ball is heading for the BC. The ball is moving fairly fast and takes it's last bounce just before the division line in the FC. A2 runs 5 feet into the BC and secures the ball. The ball never bounced in the BC. I called the violation. The crowd didn't like it, lol, because it was deflected. |
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And from what I've read the interpretation is that A was both the last to touch the ball when it had FC status and the first to touch the ball when it gains BC status. Therefore a violation. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk |
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That's not the current NCAAW interp (which matches the rule). |
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1. First part of rule---"Player shall not be first to touch ball after it has been in team control in FC," Here, ball is touched by B in FC giving it, the ball, FC status. We all agree to that. 2. Rule continues on "...if he/she or teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the FC," Grammar--this refers to the where the player was located when he is touched by the ball. That is basic sentence structure. 4-35. The player is located where he/or she is touching the floor. If I'm standing in BC and I touch a ball that has FC status, that changes the status of the ball, not my location. 3. Finally--last part "BEFORE it went to BC." Even if you believe part 2 above refers to the status of ball and not player location...one single touch cannot be BEFORE. The interpretation is wrong. |
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If I call it that way I can point at the interpretation. Or I can argue with an assigner about what the interpretation should be. Or the assigner will back me up if I called it against the interpretation. I'll take the path of least resistance. Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk |
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Would there be any difference if at the time A2 touches the deflected pass by B1, A2's foot was on the division line? |
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Below is the interp from NFHS which is exactly the play I had this year. If you notice in the interp they don't use wording describing first touch or last touch or anything like that, they just use the wording "caused the ball to have BC status" while still being in team control. SITUATION 7: A1, in the team’s frontcourt, passes towards A2, also in the team’s frontcourt. B1 deflects the ball toward Team A’s backcourt. The ball bounces only in Team A’s frontcourt before crossing the division line. While the ball is still in the air over Team A’s backcourt, but never having touched in Team A’s backcourt, A2 gains possession of the ball while standing in Team A’s backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. Team A was still in team control and caused the ball to have backcourt status. Had A2 permitted the ball to bounce in the backcourt after having been deflected by B1, there would have been no backcourt violation. (4-4-1, 4-4-3, 9-9-1) |
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This is the entire point of the conversation. The interp does not follow the rule...not even close...Does not follow basic rules of grammar in the rule. The interp is wrong...in so many ways. see cameron post 70 and my 80. |
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Consider this. A1 holding the ball in the backcourt near the division line. B2, entirely in the FC, knocks the ball out of A1's hands such that it hits A1's foot. Violation? According to the interpretation, it would be. Similarly, A1 dribbling near the division line but in the backcourt. B2, entirely in the FC, deflects the ball on the way up where it touches A1's hand again. When B2 touches the ball, it gains FC status. This, according to the interpretation would be a violation. Both of those are just silly. Stick with the rule until someone can get on the committee to either change the rule or eliminate the erroneous interpretation. |
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I wish there wasn't such an effort to stand by such an obviously awful interpretation. |
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How did I miss that? Great that we thought alike. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
Is the only way to get Schrödinger with that umlaut to copy and paste?
Just asking. :D Peace |
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Alt-0246 gives you: ö That is, hold down alt as you would hold down the shift key for caps and, while holding it down, type 0246. Other numbers produce other special characters. Here is a page that gives you several character codes: https://usefulshortcuts.com/alt-code...-alt-codes.php I've always liked this one 8-Ž |
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Several feel that the ball cannot have FC and BC status "simultaneously". However, isn't that what happens when A1, in the BC, spins the ball so that it lands in the FC, and returns to him in the BC? I know that is regarding article 2 but still, it is a BC violation and the ball has that "Schrödinger " characteristic. |
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It is only in one place at a time. |
I still hate this interpretation.
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