Last Night
 

I see the original thread was deleted. That is fine. It just seems like that is an overreaction to peoples opinions, but rules are rules on this board.

Speaking for myself, the plays that I was complaining about seem to be legit plays that need to be talked about.

Is the thread deleted because you don't want ANY official to be criticized or is it because you know the guys and are sticking up for them? I want to make sure that I am clear on the rules and don't break any in the future. This is a fun board to participate on.

I feel that we get better by discussing plays and things we do wrong. I've had plenty of bad nights myself. Talking about the game last night and plays that were clearly called incorrectly will make everybody better. As long as nobody is getting too personal and going over the top, what's the harm? Is it so wrong to complain about last night and to point out that last night wasn't the best officiated game ever?

I'm sorry if anybody is angry, and clearly one or more of the mods didn't like some of the posts, but I think an honest discussion of the game doesn't hurt anybody.

Am I in the minority on this? Thank you in advance for the clarification!

If you are going to discuss Flagrant 1 fouls, at least know the rule before saying the officials interjected themselves.

I would like to think I know the rule pretty well. Maybe I don't as I'm not a D1 official. Every time a flagrant is called, they put the rules on the screen on TV. If you want to go to the letter of the law, fine, call it. As we all know, you don't always officiate to the letter of the law/rule book and judgment comes into play. Sorry, I disagree with last night's flagrant ruling.

Do you have specific plays and how you would have handled them differently?

I don't let shots to the neck or face go unpunished. Doesn't matter if it was unintentional, most fouls are unintentional. We call fouls when someone accidentally shoves someone for a rebound or accidentally hits the shooter's arm, so why wouldn't we call a foul when someone accidentally grabs someone's face or neck?

Not directed at me, but I will jump in and answer.

12:15 to go in 2nd half. Williams-Goss drives, takes 4 steps, and initiates all the contact on Pinson. The foul was called on Pinson. Why? Travel should have been called at step 3 if not step 4.

About :50 to go in the game. Meeks gets on the ground for the loose ball. His whole hand is out of bounds while ball is on his legs. Ref is right there. No call. Why?

That was very light contact on the face. I just don't think it was worthy of a Flagrant 1.

You call ALL contact to the neck and face as fouls or flagrants? I don't agree with that line of thinking.

The original post was mine. I did not post it to bash any of the officials. It was simply for discussing the issues that were being complained about as I was not in agreement with the article. Sorry if these things shouldn't be posted. My mistake.


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You were fine. The thread fell apart (in my opinion) after.

This is the last I'm going to say about it.

Saying they missed a travel is discussing a play.
Saying "that was pretty poor last night" is criticizing the crew.

Saying they missed the OOB call is discussing a play.
Saying "That was bad, inconsistent officiating last night" is criticizing the crew.

My comments on the use of "ticky-tack" were not from a moderator perspective, so they should have been included in a different post. I stand by the opinion, but it's a separate issue.

While I appreciate your opinion, this part of the public discussion is over. Feel free to PM me if you want.

Final note: I'm open to further discussing this privately, but not in public. Keep the discussion about the plays.

I think you need to look at the play again. He grabbed Berry's neck.

One main reason I love this forum is we show plays and we have different opinions on how it should have been officiated.

I will never do a final or 1k college mens games. I cant say that I understand what they are calling or not calling and cant judge it.

I can look at plays and think how I would call similar situations.

On that note I dont want to hear your opinion about the crew last night especially if its negative. I want to come here and hear your thoughts on why you would officiating plays differently.

If the highly paid Adam says its getting too negative then it is. And you should listen or leave the forum. It isnt helping anyone. Clearly you can PM him so we can get back to discussing plays.

Thanks!

Hand out of bounds
 

Late in the game a North Carolina player was touching the end line at the same time his hand was on the ball. Should this have been called and Gonzaga awarded the ball?

Yes.

Accidental And Incidental ...
 

Saw one of my friends, a veteran, highly regarded, official, work a state tournament quarterfinal game. As a defender was reaching out to size up the opponent point guard, the defender accidentally brushed a few fingers across the point guards face. A split second went by (cue crickets). Point guard puts her hand up to her eye that was accidentally poked, in obvious pain. Only then came the whistle for the foul. I asked my friend about it afterward. He admitted that, at first, he was going to pass on the play as incidental contact, until he saw that the point guard was in pain. An advantage was certainly gained in that situation. Accidental and incidental don't mean the same thing.

Your post is valid, but not similar to the play in question. The ball was dead when the contact in question occurred. No one was put at a disadvantage.

The rule is what it is, and I suppose it was properly enforced here, but in my opinion the rule was written more with aggressive elbow type action in mind, as opposed to the reactive, reflexive grab we saw here.

True, and I've handled that situation the exact same way. However, I've also seen an official just halt play for an injury stoppage without assessing a foul. In his mind the contact remained incidental and unworthy of a foul despite the injury. I think that this could be a reasonable debate, if people wish to discuss it.

I think one reason that this is not called a foul is because it is so often that the contact is not seen, only the player reacting to the contact. The contact itself is so often brief and minimal, but can nonetheless be debilitating, not unlike a poke in the groin area.

Accidental or not, this is a foul.

We all miss calls. These guys are just under a lot more scrutiny. One missed OOB call does not define a game. Given the physicality of the game, missing one going to the floor is minor.

It was a physical game and they maintenance control. The teams played consistent and the officiating was consistent. Isn't that what coaches want? Consistency...

Seems like an oxymoron to me. Accidentally hit a face/neck? Yes, it is possible. Grab someone's face/neck? Must be intentional.

Maybe I am getting caught in semantics but just my opinion if going by literal words.

Don't overthink it. Just like in any other situation, on or off the court. You reach out to grab something, miss, and accidentally grab the wrong thing.

So is every hold an intentional foul?

Yes, presuming by "hold" you mean involving a grab.

You really believe every hold is intentional? So every time you blow your whistle for a hold you rule it an intentional foul?

If the hold involved a grab, then yes.

Instead of a graphic i'll just type it out

facepalm

What's the difference between a hold and a grab? It seems you're trying to make a distinction here.

You're too kind.

https://s13.postimg.org/kzkvs4i7r/grabhold.png

These are different things?

That is what I was thinking about your line of questioning, that you are trying to make some distinction. Not sure where you are going with it.

Anyway...

Yes, there is a distinction imo. I grab is a conscious closing of the hand around something, like a wrist, jersey, etc. It can't be accidental. Are all holds grabs? No. Are all grabs hold? Yes. Some holds are too difficult to consider intentional. If someone grabs a jersey though, then it seems obvious, not only what they were doing, but also there intent. Looks as if it comes down to semantics again. Shocker.

Just my opinion.

I hate to defend this ... as it's ridiculous, but you can have a hold (in basketball) without the player grasping with his fingers, can't you? Wouldn't putting your arms out and preventing a player from going past you be considered a hold ... without it being "grabbing"?

(I would note than in neither case ... grasping or not grasping, I would never call a normal hold as an intentional foul, as bucky suggests).

An example -

Player A1 is pinning down Player B1's arm in an attempt to rebound. You'd call it a hold, and it's a conscious decision to pin him down. You would call that intentional?

Bucky -
Seems to me that you're using the Webster definition of intentional, and not the rulebook definition.

Yes, if you grab something, you intended to do so. Doesn't make it an "intentional foul" as described in the rulebook.

I was thinking similarly.

I too would not call a "normal hold" intentional. Not sure where I suggested that but whateves.

And as far as "pinning" someone's arm, why do I need to call that a "hold"? Why not illegal use of hands? Or, by definition, go ahead and call hold, but that does not make it intentional.

Someone listed the definition of hold, which differs from that in basketball, at least NCCAM. Holding is simply interfering with freedom of movement, very similar to the definition of blocking. So, interfering with freedom of movement, looks to me to not necessarily involve grabbing.

And, yes MD, comes down to semantics. I feel it does fit as described in the rule book. Have to agree to disagree. Not sure why everyone is wasting time on this.

(Searching for that term in my rulebook ... can't find it...)

Because you claimed that you would call a simple hold (if it included grasping) an Intentional Foul.

It's not.

Not even close, and not even if there is INTENT.

I checked all of my posts. None had any that involved "claim" or "simple". Those are your words, not mine.

My initial response was to "..accidentally grabbing someone's face or neck" and I expressed it as my opinion. I even used the words "Seems like.." to express a generality. Now, a whole lotta posts later, you are berating me regarding....yup, you guessed it, my opinion.

Nice.

See posts 23 and 25 (and the posts just before that you were saying "Yes" to, to keep it in context).

(I'm not berating you.)

You need to look a little harder....it is there.

4-24. Bucky you did say a grab would be an intentional foul. You may have meant something else but it is there. Having said that, we all know that most fouls committed are done on purpose if you look at a dictionary definition. Defender putting two hands on defender all way to hole is not an accident. Player shoves another from behind to get a rebound. That's on purpose/intentional but we dont call it that.

Just because there's a grab doesn't mean there's an intentional foul. I know you know that. i think we should move on to something else.

Jerseys get grabbed accidentally all the time: more often than intentionally, IMO.

Defender reaches for the ball, trying to grab it, and misses. Whether he hits a jersey or a wrist, the natural instinct of the fingers is to grab. This is not an intentional act.

Many jersey grabs are certainly intentional: but not all. I'd say not even most.

I guess it depends on your definition. As i said above, i think most fouls are done purposely. Cited some examples. If you are going by me i might stick an arm out, if i then grab your jersey i think im doing it in desperation. I dont think its an accident. We dont call it an intentional foul all the time but i disagree that jersey grabs are more accidental than on purpose. Does a kid have a brain cramp and do it... yes. It's not intentional in basketball but i think it is under dictionary defintion.

I don't think most fouls are done on purpose, I think they're done out of intentional negligence at most. I try to steal the ball or block a shot but know full well I may foul you in the process.
I reach out to slap the ball and hit your arm instead.

Arm bars and hand checks are different, but even then they tend to be instinctual (bad habits and poor coaching) rather than intentional.

I see your point, though, and think I'm picking nits.

Maybe we should call them "premeditated fouls" instead.

Lets just call it pornography...we know intentional when we see it. Just because A1 meant to whack B1 on the arm doesnt make it intentional. There is more than "intent" to be considered when calling intentional foul....". I have mentioned im a rocket scientist...yes?

Did you seriously just say that you were being berated? And you are the one who dragged out this subject, now you want to know why the subject is being dragged out. :rolleyes:

It's interaction like this that makes one question whether someone is really an official or just a fan.

I checked posts 23 and 25. Could not find those words (claim, simple) in those posts.

I do not feel that I dragged it out. I offered an opinion as a response (post 20). JAR offered a reply in post 21. Adam dragged it out, imo, with post 22 by asking a question. You are correct, it is interaction like this that makes me question whether someone is really an official or just a fan. I thought it was perfectly acceptable to offer opinions on plays, not criticize officials/crews. I offered my opinion and got criticized. So, yea, I'd call it berating given the words and length of time spent on it.

Gotta agree with BigCat, move on to something else.

Can we just call it a Flagrant 1 instead of "Intentional"? Stupid NFHS!

Basketball Officials Manual 2015-17. Signal 31