Coaches who are also Officials
 

Just wondering if my experience with coaches who are also officials is typical.

Just finished my 2nd year. In my 2nd Varsity game, one head coach had been my partner for 4 MS travel games. Before the game he told me that his girls are aggressive, and when they drive the lane and there is contact, he wants the foul called. First half he got into a long discussion about a block/charge call with my partner, which prompted my partner to tell me at halftime that he couldn’t believe the coach was also an official. Close game at halftime, his team gets blown out in the 2nd half. Winning team passing the ball along the perimeter, killing the clock, (4 minutes to go, 30 point margin) and the coach yells at me for missing a travel. I admit sometimes I struggle with identifying the pivot foot, I am certainly working on it. (after game partner said it was close, but a travel). After the game, coach finds us in the hall, and begins yelling at me that I am a JV official, that I missed 4 travels, and he is going to send the video to the assignor. I did not engage him. Both my partner and the AD try to calm the coach down. That night I emailed a full explanation to my assignor.

2 weeks later, I went to watch his team in their first round State playoff game. Same type of game, tied at halftime, his team loses by 28. Three-man crew, all experienced guys. He was complaining all game. During a 3rd quarter time-out, he told his team “Don’t worry girls, it’s 8 against 5 out there”. With about 4 minutes to go, he gets in an official’s face and screams “You’re Horrible!”, twice. That earned him a T. Saddest part was his team clapping for him as he returned to the bench.

Then last week I did a 6th grade girls travel game – one coach was a partner from 2 months ago. I was L, in good position to see no contact on a missed lay-up. Shooter goes down hard – not injured, but stays down for a while. Coach screaming for a foul (from 50 feet away) “If my player is on the floor, there HAS to be a foul”. (As an official, how can she possibly think that?) Girls that age are on the floor all the time, of their own doing.

So….typical, or atypical?

My response would have been "Don't tell me how to officiate, and I won't tell you how to coach."

I have a low tolerance for a-holes, especially presumptuous a-holes.

In my experience if a coach is mostly a referee they are awesome referees. If they are mostly a coach with some referee experience they are horrible coaches and referees.

They are just to competitive to truly embrace a stance of seeing where you are what you are calling and understanding we cant be perfect. If he tells you he refereed or does he is saying he wants you to make calls that help him and the way his girls play to gain an advantage. Once they do this I pretty much know I have to call my game, take care of business and ignore him.

Basketball is hard to referee. You are here because you care and are trying to get better. He is there to win. And no one should ever give you that level of crap.

Div 1 Final four guy reminds me every year. If he shows you who he is you better believe him.

Only coach I ever listen to is the one who asks respectful questions. The rest it treat as a guy who wants to win and will say and do anything to win.

When a coach tells me this will happen and you better call it. I say I will referee how I have been trained and I need you to coach your kids not my crew. Then he knows that manipulation attempted failed and I am just going to work my game and not think about him at all.

I wouldnt let a coach yell at you, ever. First chance you get tell him you cant be yelling at me. If you want to ask me a question when I am close that is great. No more yelling. If he doesnt know he is getting a T for yelling then he will find out really fast.

Great job not engaging the coach after the game. Whenever you have a coach like that find a safe place away from him after the game and write a report that he sought you out. Horrible what these coaches do to newer officials. We dont want you quitting over this kind of behavior. Stick at it man.

That last coach... we are americans. We blame everyone and take no accountability. You worked hard and know there was no contact. Coach I am right there. She lost her balance no one make contact with her.

Sounds like you are already doing well as an official. Dont be discouraged and keep coming here. I have learned a lot over the years.

With more experience I will be ready with an appropriate reply to pregame comments like that - I just ignored it this time.

If they were such good coaches they would not be officiating. If they were such good officials they would not be coaching.

I do not care for these individuals who try to tell you what they did in officiating. Unless I know who you are and know what you do, then you must not have been that great.

Ignore these fools who try to tell you how much they have officiated anything.

Peace

BigT, thanks for the encouragement! Don't worry, no thoughts of quitting at all, I enjoy it too much - and feeling way more confident now than during my rookie year.

I would not use the response that BNR used. (It might work for him; it wouldn't work for me).

I'd say something like, "we'll judge the contact on both ends" or "since you're an official you know that not all contact is a foul".

Sometimes, if it gets more protracted, I suggest bringing the other coach in so we are all on the same page.

Add this to the end of your response: "although someone should". ;)

BNR is a bigger guy with color and you are not. A lot of things work for him that would not work for you or me. After all that is why most of this advice about anything does not apply to everyone and should not. That is why I do not give the "stop sign" it often does not work at all. Well unless I want to give a Technical foul as a guarantee.

Peace

ROFLMAO@Mark

That's your best approach.

My experience is that if they are coaches who also officiate, they can be a pain. If they are officials who also coach, they are great (with a few exceptions). There are some high level local officials (varsity state tournament, and college) who are a pleasure to work for when they coach (primarily middle school and JV).

The main difference: even though you know they officiate, and they know you by name, they never, ever, try to use that to their advantage. They ask better questions, but that's about it.

Back to your OP: You did right by emailing your assigner about his stuff, and don't worry about missing a travel now and then. Sure, work on the pivot foot, but not to the point where it's your best call. You're better off at this point learning to differentiate between fouls and incidental contact. "Close but a travel" is not necessarily something you need to be calling, and if it needed called, your partner should have got it if he saw it.

His "8-5" comment gets an easy T if I hear it.

Your second coach screaming for a foul is likely going to get a T from me in a ms game. If not, I've tuned her out and she'll be lucky if I hear "time out" when she needs it.

He wouldn't have gotten half this out of his mouth with me.

"I want a million dollars, coach. Neither of us are probably going to get what he wants." :D

For new officials (of any sport): Much wisdom above. Never listen to the guy with "the" answer for managing games/coaches/players. There are a lot of different tools. All officials need to find the ones that work for them.

(I'm a soccer referee. I see referees do things very effectively that I know won't work for me -- but even the tools that don't work can be learning points on how to adjust tools that I do use.)

Was doing a VB game this year and home team coach does officiate some on the weekend (kids/travel/high school rec stuff)...

1Q my first whistle of the game was on a drive originating from the C....I'm the lead see the contact, give partner first crack and then I put a whistle on it. It was late, probably later than it should have been, but it was the right call.

I go over the report and coach isn't pleased. I admit it was late, but it was the right call. Coach then proceeds to explain "I ref and the rule book says you don't call a foul that late." :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I'm of the school that if you officiate, especially at a high level, you should know better than bark and chirp at an official as it can be a difficult game to call. However, thinking a coaches mindset will change because they officiate sometimes doesn't change the end result of their behavior....

One follow up question: were you talking to him alone, or was the other coach present? Pregame, I never recommend having a conversation with either coach when the other isn't present. Other than my pregame coach's meeting, I don't say anything to coaches before tipoff.

It was during pre-game observations. I was at the division line, partner had gone to the table. The coach approached me - nobody else present.

No such thing as a late call. Notice he didn't argue the correctness of the call.. Next!

Nope he didn't...sometimes I'll throw out a 'That ### rule must be in rule 11 right coach?" just to see if they really have read the rule book as much as they profess to do ;)

In a setting like you've described, I typically have a shorter rope when the coach makes a point to tell me that he is an official or used to be an official.

If he's an official, he should already understand how to respectfully approach me to ask a question.

I'm not giving him any benefit of the doubt when there is poor behavior. Because he should already know what is coming.

While officiating independent basketball (travel ball) I have had a few negative interactions with NFHS certified officials who were coaching their kid's team. The level of competition ranged from middle school to varsity. In each instance it only happened once and ended when I had enough from them and reminded them that they are certified officials and should act like it. The next time we shared the floor they were polite and treated me with respect. I would say they were below average officials. Of course this was independent basketball and it is easy for people to lose their minds here so maybe they would have acted differently at a sanctioned game.

The only time I officiated a sanctioned high school game were a coach was a NFHS certified official was a great game. They guy was a great official and it his coaching skills, regarding interaction with us, reflected that.

So based off of my limited personal experience, I think good officials will be good coaches, regarding interaction with the game officials. Bad (relative term) officials can be a pain and would not think twice about what they thought of me or my level of officiating.

Don't let that happen in the future.

What I'd want to say, "Coach, you throw a garbage rule like that at me again and I'll call a technical foul."

What I'd actually do is ignore him and tune him out. If he gets my attention again, it had better be for a timeout.

The Texan is right. As soon as he starts talking about how his players play, stop him and start walking towards the other coach. "Coach, any conversation we have is going to involve both of you, let's go get their coach and we can talk."

When I get persistent chirping about a rule, I flat out tell the coach that I know the rule book better than he does.

Yeehaw!

You guys read my mind! I was going to ask what is the best way to prevent it.

:)
It does two things. First, it prevents him from telling you how to call a game like this. He won't say that around the other coach.

Second, it prevents any appearance of you being too friendly with one coach over the other.

Trading stripes for coaching polos inflicts madness on even the best
 

Most unbelievable exhibition of multiple ref-as-a-coach insanity occurred in a travel tournament locally.

One of the groups involved had several teams with dads as coaches. Dad's officiating resumes ranged from NBA finals to high level D1 down to D3.

Each of them let their respective pedigrees be known at some point during games.

I can understand the emotional aspect of coaching your own offspring combined with less than stellar officiating found in travel ball. I have often been in that exact same position.

What I can't countenance is the utter lack of respect, to the point of verbally abuse and hectoring and even profanity directed at youthful officials by these supposed paragons of officiating.

One of the worst displays was during the first 12U girls game, a coach walked onto the court during live play to yell about fouls and grabbed the shoulder of my teen-aged son.

Instinctively my son wheeled around, sounded his whistle and served up a T.

The coach returned to his bench and quietly remarked to me "Your young ref just banged an NBA Finals official"

Now, I want to say I have had coaches try to sell some bodacious wolf tickets but this one took the cake.

Other coaches from his group confirmed he was who he claimed, to my utter surprise. I grabbed my smartphone and found a name that fit the face.

Said coach had the good grace to compliment and apologize to the officials after the game.
We spent the rest of the afternoon discussing the disconnects between FED and NBA rulesets.

I told my #3 son this was a story to regale his grandkids with...sort of like Barney Fife giving a speeding ticket to a Supreme Court judge.

As a whole, every coach in that organization was influenced by the poor example set by their leading lights.

My association made a point to boycott any future tournaments involving this tribe of disrespectful howler monkeys.

Since then I have a very short leash with any coach who mentions his coaching credentials.

Now, whenever my #1 son, who bears a sharp resemblance to his younger brother, runs into NBA finals ref, they share a good laugh with their group.

Wasn't so funny when it actually happened.

1. He grabbed a teenager?!?!? Should have been ejected from the venue immediately.

2. I'm guessing that you meant to write "officiating credentials."

Ole Scott Foster is a Legend up and down Virginia.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

More like tapped him on the shoulder to get his attention. His yelling didn't work as the ref is good at tuning out coaches.

I have a slightly different perspective regarding a Head Coach who is also a registered basketball official. So please bear with my comments.

I graduated from high school in 1969 and became an OhioHSAA registered basketball official in 1971. I immediately joined the Trumbull Co. Bkb. Off. Assn. and have been a member of the TCBOA ever since even the four years I attended college in Miami and the two years years I lived in Glendale, California.

My high school basketball coach was an OhioHSAA registered basketball official from 1948 (while he was attending Youngstown State University) until 1971. He was the boys' VAR basketball coach at my high school from 1951 to 1971, during which his teams were state runner-up once, regional champions once, district champions three times, sectional champions 17 times, and league champions 15 times (I played on two of those league and sectional championship teams).

Of all of his players (including his two sons and me) people always picked me to most likely become a basketball coach. And yet I was the only one of all his players that put on the striped shirt. He was a founding member of the TCBOA in 1948 and he was the reason I became a basketball official.

He was always asked why he, a basketball coach, was also a registered basketball official, and his response was always the same: "How can you teach someone how to play the game if you do not know the rules."

His best example of his philosophy was guarding and screening. Three times a season the FR, JV, and VAR teams would practice together and the whole practice was dedicated to learning how to guard and screen per the rule book. If one were to have sat in the stands one would have thought that he was watching a basketball officiating camp. He taught players how to guard and screen right out of the rule book. He would read the pertinent section of the rule book and then have us guard and screen per the rule book.

I can honestly tell people that the guarding and screening rules as well as the traveling rules have not changed for over 50 years because I have been able to literally quote chapter and verse since I was a FR in high school.

We are required to officiate the game as if the players and the coaches know the rules. I have always officiated that way because I had a coach that taught us to know the rules and to play per the rules.

MTD, Sr.

6th grade travel ball (MAYB) a couple of years ago. First game, I oversaw the replacement of both the dads at the table because they couldn't stop fighting with each other.

Last game, close contested game, and team down by a few late decides to start fouling. Defender walks right up to the kid with the ball, puts two hands in his chest and shoves. Easy X.

After the game (travel league, so my bag was at the table) the coach starts telling me I shouldn't have called that at that point in the game. Some dad walks up, proceeds to tell me he works college ball, and that it was the wrong call.

I tuned them all out at that point, changed my shoes, and walked out. At least that's how I remember it.

ANY time a coach I don't know feels the need to bring up his officiating credentials, it elicits one of two responses from me:

1.) If it's before the game, I nod politely and note him as a potential problem child with a short leash.
2.) If it's in the heat of battle and he begins a sentence with "I'm an official and ..." I stop him right there and say, "I'm sure somebody lets you ref games somewhere, but you're no official."

Anyone in general who claims to be an official (coach, parent, fan) as an opener to arguing with the officials is an embarrassment to the profession and a total clown.

Exactly! Which was why these two experiences were so surprising to me. . . I kept thinking that of all people, THEY should know better.

The Hey stop insulting my guy....!!!!!!

I use an honest approach when a coach tries to inform me he is an official or that his kids will be playing XYZ style. I look at him and say "I don't care." and walk away. It sets a horrible tone for allowing those types of conversations and makes it clear I'm there to officiate. I have found that coaches that like to remind us these things are usually the biggest pains in the butt.

I coached softball for 2 summers.

I had the hardest time with umpires who clearly were pulling things out of their backsides. But I never, ever told them I was an umpire. It just wouldn't help.

I got ejected once each summer. In both cases, it was an umpire who decided that he was above answering any questions whatsoever and decided the easiest way to deal with me was to make me go away.

When one found out I was an assigner for HS softball, he tried to talk his way back into my good graces the next day. That made things even worse in the end.

I've decided that for now on my response will be "I used to coach, and I was a strong, physical post player".

I am on the opposite of this story actually.

Loved learning the rules of basketball as I first started out as a coach :eek: One season we failed to attend the clinic so I had to take the test. Scored well, but found out I needed to learn more than the basics! 21 seasons later I got out of coaching and some officials recruited me. Just finished my 5th year with a whistle.

Coach: "I'm a ref...."

Me: "Not tonight you're not."

+1
Great line

Are you Mark Padgett's understudy?

A few years back, I had a CYO coach that told my partner and me he also officiated. I was largely indifferent over the revelation. In a different game I officiated with his team later that year, I had to wonder about his training when I called what turned out to the 5th foul on one of his players and he insisted I couldn't call a PC foul on his player because the defender was under the basket. :rolleyes:

On the other side of this perspective, I've captained an adult kickball team in one of our area's social clubs in recent years. Should I need to approach the umpire about a rule issue or concern, I do everything I can to avoid mentioning that I'm also state-registered in softball and I try to treat the umpire as I'd want to be treated should a coach/captain have a question or concern to address with me when I'm officiating a game. I'd rather not become the discussion topic of one of these posts if I can help it. :D

[QUOTE=he insisted I couldn't call a PC foul on his player because the defender was under the basket.[/QUOTE]


Obviously, he assumed you would divine he was an NCAA official and forgive his confusion...

I coached my own daughter for a number of years (she's a JR now and has since stopped playing) but I still work with our local youth program and our V Coach with summer camps and our travel team evals)....I started calling games prior to my kid starting to play.

As she moved into travel hoops, the league we played in, I was also a ref for for a few years prior. Most of the guys that called my games, I had worked with so I never had and never would tell another guy during the heat of the game, "I'm a ref/official also"...

My demeanor and how I speak to guys officiating my games will let them know I know what I'm talking about. When I have a question, it's using terms like Lead, Trail, legal guarding position etc...

I know first hand what the guys in stripes are going through. Especially at lower level where it's a mess....I don't need help from the bench when reffing and I am not going to make an a$$ out of myself when coaching. I've got kids watching me and I set the example for how I want my parents and players to act/react.

Truthfully, I'm so focused on my kids while coaching them in game that I don't really allow myself to focus on the calls...they are what they are and as we all know, no amount of complaining about a call you disagree with will make the guy with the whistle have some epiphany and change his/her mind.

I'm a far better coach because I have officiated and I think I'm a better official because I have spent time on the bench. Having the perspective from both sides has served me well in both roles over the years.

As others have said, I stopped officiating and started coaching HS ball a couple seasons ago. I have never told officials "I am an official" and never will. Most of the local guys know me. I keep my mouth shut for the most part. I did apologize to a crew in the second half of a game, and told them that they should have T'd me for a comment I made at halftime - and they really should have.

Having said that, I have been very surprised by the comments from officials to me as a coach. Things that I would never say to a coach...perfect example: my defender called for a block. I felt he had LGP and so asked the official (did not know him, from another area) what my player did wrong. Response was "He wasn't set. Gotta be set." I never said a word - just looked at him and shook my head. He then said "Maybe you should try reading a rule book every now and then, Coach." And that's when the fight started...no, I just bit my tongue and said nothing.

Another example...close game. Under 30 seconds left.Our throw-in from our own endline. Player throws the throw-in pass to point guard in back court. Official calls backcourt violation. I ask him to discuss it with his crew and make sure. His response: "I have been reffing twice as long as both of them combined. Asking them would be almost as bad as asking you. Now sit down and shut up."

So as officials, we do sometimes cause some of our own problems.

Exactly! That's the part that I couldn't wrap my ahead around, he knows what it is like to officiate, and he was my partner for 4 games, and then to blow up like that. . .

Hadn't seen you post in several months. Wondered what happened to you.

Went over to the Dark Side. They offered me cookies.

Out of curiosity what level are you coaching? Reason why I'm asking is I'd raise an eyebrow at the varsity level for those type of comments. If it's at the lower levels with potentially an inexperienced partner I can see that type of rules butchering with responses (not that I'm excusing it). For the guy who noted 'I've been reffing longer than these two have been alive' comment I wonder if your game was being officiated by 'that guy' :mad:

'That guy' is an infuriating partner to work with and I bet even worse to be a coach in a game he officiates when you know the rules

Those comments both came in boys HS JV games. But here the crews do a JV/V doubleheader each night, so it was the same crew on the Varsity game.

Any time a coach starts a sentence or a phrase with "You..." it will never end well. These are borderline automatic warnings, if not T's, for me.

Had a game this season where a coach said "You can't call the armbar if..." I tuned him out after that and said that's enough. He didn't shut up. Whack.

Some coaches, officials or otherwise, just don't get it and this is the only way they'll learn.

Seems reasonable.

I've coached a church/recreational league the past 2 years. For the most part, the officials have done a terrific job. They are volunteering, so I'm not going to criticize anything. I have found myself giving the travel or other violation signal here and there but not too bad. This year, I had the 1/2 grade where we don't keep score and the only real issue we had was a lack of rules knowledge on a couple of things. They were calling violations for the thrower-in stepping on the line (still OOB) and I got with them after the game and got that corrected.

I spoke with the league guy and I think I might take over as the supervisor next year. We will need to improve our rules knowledge and look just a little more professional.

Not to derail the thread, but does anyone have any brand suggestions for black shorts? I'd like the guys to wear the same and I like the UA, but was wondering about other brands.

That's micro-managing, imo.

My thought is that this is church/wreck league and you are taking this WAY too seriously and looking to show who's in charge with controlling what volunteer officials wear.

He said they are volunteers -- I was assuming he was asking so he could make a big order and give them to the volunteers. I would expect any league getting volunteer referees would be supplying anything they were required to wear.

Like others noted: they're volunteers, so unless you're planning on buying the shorts I'd steer clear here.

I agree and I was going to type something similar, but I thought that would go without saying.

Take something too seriously and require certain attire and you better pay for it or reimburse guys.

While watching this NCAA finals, a commercial comes on with reggie m and referee---the script had the ref whistle reggie for a food stain on his shirt---could you believe they had the ref use a quasi PC signal and blowing a silver metal pea whistle?
Then next,this viagra commersh comes on and they have the woman dressed in nondescript cheap looking blue illegal jersey number.
OMG hollywood really mis-represents officials.

Excuse me from the above digress, regarding your uniform shorts that is a fine idea I would suggest all black with no inordinately large vis logo athletic long pants instead of shorts.

Kansas Ref -

Viagara commercials have some of the most beautiful women in their mid 40's in their commercials. And you are watching the commercial and commenting on her jersey number.......C'Mon brother!!!!!!

I used to spring for Nike shorts, but picked up a couple pairs of Russell Athletic shorts at Walmart before a camp last year and they have become my favorite. The Nike ones are quite poofy whereas the Russell Athletics shorts have a slimmer, more athletic cut.

You CAN NOT be serious. First of all, I do leadership training and consulting. I work with leaders and directors of all kinds of organizations. Even a few CEOs. One of the first things people who take my training courses learn is what leadership is not -- it is not about showing who's in charge. So I basically spit out my drink when I read your comment. It is like you trying to tell Roy Williams what mistakes he is making in recruiting. OK, OK maybe I'm not quite at the level in my profession that he is in his, but the comparison is still at least somewhat accurate. Feel silly yet? If not, keep reading. [OK, that comment was a little snotty; ignore!]

Second, my concerns are based on what was actually being worn. One guy was wearing a shirt with a collar. Shorts are all over the place. I don't think anyone has ever told these guys to do anything other than when to show up and wear something like a shirt and shorts -- so it isn't like they're married to their wardrobe. They have no idea there are better, more professional looking, products out there. I'm simply going to say something like, "hey guys, let's look a little more professional; here's a good quality shirt and a good brand of shorts if you are looking for suggestions." And yes, I'd be happy to give or buy the guys a shirt and some shorts if for whatever reason they won't get them themselves. If you were doing this league and a guy wanted to wear his old football knickers, would you let him? What about a rock concert t-shirt? Something inappropriate at a church (where this league is being played)? If you want to call clothing suggestions micro-managing, fine, but where does it start and stop?

Finally, this is one reason why I don't come on this forum much -- I wasn't really looking for advice, or for that matter input, on ANYTHING other than a brand of a pair of shorts. [AremRed -- thank you for your suggestions]

I asked because some of you do summer and rec leagues and wear brands that I may not be familiar with. Asking a question like, "are you sure you want to go to this level with volunteers..." may have been reasonable, but making accusations or trying to lecture me based on YOUR inaccurate assumptions is not. Yeah, I probably sound a little defensive (and I apologize for that) but each one on here SHOULD know better. You're criticizing a colleague without getting the entire story. Hell, you hardly have ANY of the story. Tell me with a straight face you'd want me doing that to you -- especially on something you didn't ask for any input on.

If you really believed that your comments to me were something I needed to take to heart, you need to do the same here. Right??

Oh, and one more thing (if you're still reading): if I do take this over, these guys are going to show up on a Saturday morning to a room with towels, a couple of coolers full of water/sports drinks/sodas and an assortment of breakfast foods. I don't know what as of now, but by the end of the league, they will get a very nice gift. I will ask the league for SOME of this in the budget but I suspect I will cover most of it myself. I also have some contacts with some name recognition who I can probably get to write each of them a glowing letter of appreciation. Like a men's Div. 1 head coach. I'll try to do something like that. All that for getting MAYBE 1 or 2 small items of clothing that I don't think any of them will have a problem with anyway.

I will ask them at the end of the league if I took this WAY too seriously.

Your original request did sound like you wanted to require volunteers to wear a specific pair of shorts.

That did sound overboard for paid officials, much less volunteers. You didn't make it sound like it was going to be a suggestion. In your current reply, you made it clear that it was going to be a suggestion. But, that isn't how your original post on the topic read.

One summer rec league I work provides a gray, wicking material T-shirt, with the organization's logo and the words "CBAA Ref." No rules about shorts, but the shirts provide some degree of uniformity. Texas Aggie, you might consider a similar approach.

I read it the same way Camron did: as if you wanted to require a specific brand. Just tell them to wear black shorts, and let them know collars went out of style with Vanilla Ice.

The summer leagues I work have one of two requirements: shorts allowed; long pants required.

That's it (well, for the shorts -- a striped shirt is required). No mention of brand, length, etc. And, frankly, that's all it should be.

If someone made me go out and buy a specific brand when I already have the appropriate shirt and certain color pants, I am probably not going to do that anymore. Not unless you are buying the stuff for me. Yes, that is way too anal IMO for any league to be telling officials what specifically to wear other than simply a basic color or style.

Peace

Target brand (C9?) black gym shorts are great for me. Logo is nearly invisible, above the knee, slim and not too baggy. That's what I reffed all of my rec league games in before my early retirement from that stuff this year.