Wanted to call something

[MOFFICIAL]

I was officiating a men's league game at the YMCA. A shot was taken it was missed and rebounded. Heading up court. My partner and I blow our whistles at approximately the same time. His for an injured player and mine for a pretty serious bump on the dribbler. We confer and he said he blew first-but I really wanted to call my bump also because it was pretty hard and maybe deliberate (but how do you judge intent).
Is there something I could have called to send a message on the rough play?

[bob jenkins]

You must decide which whistle occurred first. If your partner's whistle was first, you must ignore your whistle, unless you decide the contact was intentional (possible) or flagrant (unlikely).

If you decide your partner's whistle was first, and the contact was not intentional, some might have you call any minor transgression against the offender on your whistle the next time it happens (basketball's version of the FYC). I can't recommend that, though, because it's against the rules.

[Mark Dexter]

What is FYC?

[mick]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
What is FYC?

Mark,
Fooled you call.
Commonly found in baseball by umpires that have no other recourse in dealing with a player that has aggravated them.
mick

[chels]

That sounds similar to a "make up call", which officials
are accused of from time to time. That isn't a good road
to go down.
How about during the timeout for the injured player you
tell the player you blew and didn't report to knock off
the rough play. At least he/she will know you are aware.

[mick]

Originally posted by chels
That sounds similar to a "make up call", which officials
are accused of from time to time. That isn't a good road
to go down.
How about during the timeout for the injured player you
tell the player you blew and didn't report to knock off
the rough play. At least he/she will know you are aware.

chels,
You are correct; that is not a good place to go. But it is not a make-up, it is a "get even" call.
And, I do not condone, I only define.
mick

[MOFFICIAL]

Bob,
Thanks for the reply.
Since his whistle was firt I didn't call mine. I'm not an advocate of the make-up or FYC call either. The advice on speaking to the player is what I will keep in my memory for future situations.

[rockyroad]

It might also be a good idea to go to the player who got bumped and tell him what happened also...let the dribbl;er know "I got him next time"...could prevent any retaliation type play...

[Hawks Coach]

If you are comfortable working with your partner and you felt the call needed to be made, couldn't you just have determined in your conference that your whistle came first. After all, whistles were close enough together that you had to confer, right? No need for a make up, your facts at the time become the facts.

[MOFFICIAL]

Hawks Coach
Thanks, another good comment.
That's why I keep coming back here.
I get a lot of good feedback and insight!

[Todd VandenAkker]

I would add that it's not necessarily which whistle came first (assuming one is not significantly after the other), but which ACT or event occured first. Get together, then decide whether the foul or need to halt the game for injury happened first. If, as described, the contact was such that you really feel it should be penalized, then it should be easy to indicate that the foul occured before the other official recognized the injury.

[Mark Dexter]

Good point by Todd. Its like the quote from the rules fundamentals - 'A whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead, it is usually already dead.'

[Hawks Coach]

You beat me to it Todd (big surprise)! I was on the road and it came to me that the act was what really mattered, not the order of whistles. However, to nitpick Mark's answer, in this case one of the whistles does cause the ball to be dead IMHO, because the injury occurred probably seconds before the whistle for the injury. The injury does not cause the stoppage, but rather the referee's decision that the injury is of such a severity that he should stop play. So this is one case where the whistle is the act which causes the stoppage.

Then the question would be did the foul come before the whistle for the injury. Only the person who saw the foul can assess that. I am assuming that the ref who whistled the injury was not looking at the ball but rather, an injured player. Therefore, the one with the foul call is the only one who can say which act came first. If he felt the foul needed to be called, he would have an easy answer.

[walter]

I agree with all that has been said here so far but I think that there is something else to talk about. In the original post, MOFFICIAL judged the contact on the dribbler to be pretty severe. At that point, he's got to make a decision whether to rule the contact incidental or whether to rule it a foul. Being that he's already given up the play to his partner by agreeing that his partner's whistle came first (I agree it's really what act came first), he must now decide whether to punish the act. Because the ball was dead, if he punishes, he has no choice but to call it a technical foul. Again, I think it's very important that the two officials get together, determine what came first and then decide whether to punish the foul. The problem you have is if the coach of the dribbler's team starts screaming that MOFFICIAL called a foul and you just can't take that away.

[mick]

Originally posted by walter
I agree with all that has been said here so far but I think that there is something else to talk about. In the original post, MOFFICIAL judged the contact on the dribbler to be pretty severe. At that point, he's got to make a decision whether to rule the contact incidental or whether to rule it a foul. Being that he's already given up the play to his partner by agreeing that his partner's whistle came first (I agree it's really what act came first), he must now decide whether to punish the act. Because the ball was dead, if he punishes, he has no choice but to call it a technical foul. Again, I think it's very important that the two officials get together, determine what came first and then decide whether to punish the foul. The problem you have is if the coach of the dribbler's team starts screaming that MOFFICIAL called a foul and you just can't take that away.

Walter,
In my mind, when MOFFICIAL gave it up to his partner, the contact became incidental, unless the contact was ruled flagrant, or intentional. MOFFICIAL termed the contact a "pretty serious bump", not a push, not a hold/grab. Doesn't sound like much to me.
mick