Girls HS State Final- Missed Foul Video
 

Can one of the video experts embed the following:

pic.twitter.com/RAscBOooSm

Thanks!

I do not know how to embed the video but I have a foul on 3W as 2R is driving to the basket. Could also go PC on 2R as she extended her hand into 3W before she was fouled but I'm probably passing on that. 2R should have been shooting 2 IMO.

I agree and that was the consensus- shooting foul on 3W- from officials watching the game.

A couple of things I'd like to discuss once the video is posted and more folks provide input.

Shooting foul on white 3.

A couple of things to consider.

Why do we think the L misses this play? They got a bit straightlined after sprinting to the endline and from their vantage point could see that white was not vertical at first but did not see the contact on the arm.

Are there lessons to be learned here about getting the best look possible as L in transition.

And what about the clock? The officials ended up putting 0.3 on the clock- which became a huge deal. Its impossible to say from this video but I think there definitely should have been more time put on.

You think the play in transition was a miss? I think that was a good play, but I am assuming that is the part you want on the site correct?

I do not know if there is a way to embed twitter videos.

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here's the game-winning basket by Monacan's <a href="https://twitter.com/iball_crzy">@iball_crzy</a> to win the 4A state title! <a href="https://t.co/RAscBOooSm">pic.twitter.com/RAscBOooSm</a></p>&mdash; Jamaar Hawkins (@Jay_Hawkins2) <a href="https://twitter.com/Jay_Hawkins2/status/840370366337974273">March 11, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Peace

Thanks, JRut. Yes, that is what I wanted posted.

I do think its a miss as White 3 comes across Red's arm, which can be seen clearly at the 20 second mark of the video.

A large group of officials was sitting opposite of the camera angle behind and to the right of red's bench. The consensus was that #3 came across her arm- clearly to most officials with the other view- and should have been called a foul.

Also, there were 42 fouls and 54 FTs shot in this game. So there had been whistles on similar contact all game.

Would it also be possible to embed the video below, which shows the sequence after this when 0.3 was put back on the clock and the potential game winning shot was waived off.

Jamestown boys and King’s Fork girls lose in state title game | WAVY-TV

Thanks!

I thought she got in there pretty good and then got arm after...when red tried to force the ball through white's defense towards the hoop. I'm not sure I have a foul in real time on this, either.

L got a late jump down the floor but has a good look on the play.

The L first ran into the media table and lost his balance off camera before getting in pretty good position IMO. Aw well, full disclosure- I am the L here.

I talked to many officials, observers, and evaluators after this game. To a man, they all thought it was a foul.

In real time, it was difficult to see. I'm trying to learn how I could have gotten a more open look.

With .3 on the clock she cannot catch the ball and only a tip would be allowed so no basket is correct.

I think that the timing of the Lead's transition run is excellent. He doesn't bail out on the play at the other end and then hustles down the court in front of the action.

The only issue could be that he may run too far forward once reaching the end line. This would take him past the point from where he has an open look. When anticipating a defender and attacker coming chest-to-chest, I would recommend halting right on the OOB line or perhaps a step inbounds to have the best view of the space between the players.

I will comment that I believe this is a defensive foul, despite the offensive player driving forward, as the arms of the defender are not even close to vertical. I also think that the C has a great look at this and thought that he might come help the crew with a whistle here after the Lead didn't have one. However, I think that he didn't because of how the offensive player came away from the defender into open space with a clear look at the basket. If the player ends up making that short shot, I don't believe that anyone would have any criticism of the officiating. They would be praised for having patient whistles at a critical point in the game.

To the aspect of time left: the ball bounces OOB about 1.4 seconds prior to the horn/red lights. However, by rule, the timer is to stop the clock on the whistle, which comes a bit later--about 0.5 seconds before the red lights. I would have preferred a minimum of 0.4 be restored to the clock because of the NFHS catch and shoot rule. Putting 0.3 back puts the team in a tap only situation.

Honestly, I thought initially he missed the rotation at the other end. One the ball goes in the bucket, the new T and L have that covered and he could get down the floor a smidge earlier, I think. With such little time left, it would've been better to receive that play from a stationary position.

But you're right -- he covered the ground well.

It's likely a foul, but I'm trying to give the L the benefit of the doubt. Since he's not giving himself the benefit of the doubt, however.... :D

Not sure how you determined 1.4 seconds but I agree my whistle was late and that we should have put at least 0.4 back on clock.

As for the missed foul, I should have stopped on the endline and perhaps would have had a better look.

I also would have appreciated more help from the C but he said he didnt get a good look either.

Overall feedback was that I had a strong game- my partners not so much. And I don't say that to disparage them. Just being honest about what was said. But this end of game situation is really bothering me. Trying to learn from it and move on but I wish I'd stepped up more in the last sequence. That was communicated as well.

I got my times by using a stopwatch while watching the video multiple times. A luxury which you didn't have.

We agree on where you should have stopped for the best possible look. However, sometimes when sprinting full speed in an effort to hustle and cover the action an official will actually overrun the play and take himself out of position. It is not uncommon. I marvel at how the NBA guys don't do that more frequently in transition given the speed of the players they are observing. Perhaps it has to do with how little space is available to them on the end lines due to cheerleaders, TV cameras, and photographers. They may be conditioned to pull up sooner.

In my opinion, the most important thing you can take from this experience is how the crew handled restoring time to the clock. Given that the NFHS rule has 0.3 seconds as the cutoff for try versus tap, you need to have high certainty when making a decision which is right on that border. As you saw in this game, it can make a major impact. If you have a doubt, then I would recommend erring on the side of at least 0.4 going back up.

I have a mentality on fast breaks as the C -- I sell out and get the best look that I can at the play at the rim. I don't care if it takes me near the end line to get that look.

I don't think the C in your play did that.

Breakdown the play:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/t7VhvFC1ywQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

VaTerp I missed that foul on my first pass of the video (real-time). Only on the second pass did I see the foul. Don't beat yourself up too much.

I do not have a foul on the shot. I have a blocked shot that might have some incidental contact after the ball was contacted. That is not a foul to me and the lead has a great look at it. I have no problem with his angle on the play at all. He is receiving the play as we teach officials to do. He has the best overall angle. The camera angle does not totally help either way if you ask me.

Peace

Can someone post the final video after 0.3 seconds has been restored to the clock. For some reason my computer won't play it from the TV station's website.

If we aren't are own worst critics then we are doing something wrong IMO. You are correct that I picked up the rotation late. I was locked in on #32- the #1 HS girls player in the country BTW- as I knew the possession was going to run through her.

I noticed the rotation after the shot and in trying to transition from C to new L I took a step too far back and ran into the media table and temporarily lost my balance.

I agree on all acounts. Great point about overrunning the play. I agree that I should have stopped at the endline, which may have led to a better look.

As far as putting time back on the clock. I asked my partners and one said very definitively that he had 0.3. Knowing the situation and also knowing I was a little late on my whistle after the ball bounced out I should have gone at least 0.4.

He did not. And that was talked about as well by other officials after the game.

I appreciate it. I'm just trying to get better like most of us.

I appreciate your thoughts as well. Live, I thought I had a pretty good look and saw mostly what you saw. However, after the game I talked to at least 7 state level officials, assigners, and/or evaluators. They all had the opposite angle from the video in the thread. And they all had W3 coming across the arm.

I would not feel as bad if we had not called way more fouls than I would have liked in the game and shot 54 FTs.

If you get a chance, JRut I'd like to see the other video link I shared posted as well. Its a different camera angle and also captures what happened after we put time back on the clock.

I'm slightly OCD but I'm watching video again and the defender definitely gets ball first.

I'm not sure its a foul.

Agree with Nevada that biggest takeaway is the clock. I should have said 0.5.

They scored and we had to wipe it.

That is all great, but I see arm contact, but the contact starts with the ball from the angle we have. Again, you did not call anything so something did not stand out to you for some reason. Nothing you have said changes my mind, but if you are convinced of something else that is up to you. ;)

I will, but I do not know where to find them. Are they on the Twitter account?

Peace

I don't agree that getting the ball first means it is not a foul.

If they get the ball and the ball comes loose, I'm probably passing on any subsequent contact on the arm unless I think it prevents the shooter from retrieving the ball (but that wouldn't be a shooting foul).

However, if they get the ball first and slip off onto the arm as the shooter continues to power through, I'm calling that foul. I think that is what happens here. She does appear to be on the ball at first, but the shooter maintains control and the defender's hand slips off the ball onto the right arm as the shooter adjusts and trys to still make the shot. I think this has to be a foul as the contact on the arm is what prevented the shot, not the contact on the ball.

I'm with JRut and no-calling this, VaTerp. Not that it makes you feel any better.

I watched the play about 10 times and I'm just not seeing it. I'm seeing that it's a mess and I'm seeing that her arms aren't vertical and I'm seeing that it's the type of "bad optics" play that fans and coaches will say is a foul all day, but that's why they're not out there officiating a state final. You are.

I'm certainly not interested in the opinion of people in the stands who have a worse look than the C and are even farther away, regardless of how powerful they may be. I also understand that you have to be.

But yes, you could have easily called a foul and nobody would have said a word, not even the opposing coach. Just because it didn't "look" clean. But you stuck to your guns because how it looks and how it IS are very often not the same thing.

We've all been there, kicking ourselves after a huge moment. But hey, you reffed a state final. You're doing more than a few things right!

Well, if you read above, I also saw what Rut did.

Too much reffing from the stands. :)

Exactly. Even as someone that observes officials, I ask the calling official what they saw and mostly default to their position unless the video shows something else. The video does not show anything different than what the calling official saw.

Peace

Notice I said I'm not sure its a foul, not that it wasnt. Live, I passed on it as I did not see the contact on the arm as in the video. And the offensive player seemed to go around and to the inside of the defender instead of "powering through." And the defender got her arm out of there very quickly in real time.

After the game and talking to other officials there I was convinced there should have been a foul. And after initially watching the video I agreed. However, after watching several more times I'm comfortable with my positioning and my judgement even if there were some takeaways to learn from.

As the guy who tossed the ball that night, I do believe that the game needed a foul at that time based on what had been called all night. So I do wish I'd had a whistle or that the C had worked to get a better angle to bail me out. But again, I'm comfortable with why I didnt have a call.

What is bothering me NOW is the clock. I took the first info I got from one partner, asked the other who didnt have anything to offer and just went with it. I should have taken more time, brought everyone's temperature down a bit and made a better decision that resulted in more time being restored.

Lessons learned and if I'm fortunate enough to be in a similar position in the future, hopefully I'm a better official for it.

Thanks for all the feedback.

I do think you should have received the play better. You were very wide once on the endline, and your transition was fine. Either way from the L's angle here this could be a tough foul to call in transition and one that the C should be ready to make. I would personally as the C have been at least 5 or so feet onto the court. But for some reason end of game calls/no-calls get disproportionately weighed. I understand the idea of a team having less time to adjust, but the reality is a screw up by us is weighted equal anytime in the game. The fact that there is a countdown just adds to the urgency and "importance" but to me all calls are equal. Team turnovers and decisions play a much larger factor into the outcome.

After all that I though it was a clear foul from the video.

It looks like you are wearing a PTS pack. Why didn't the clock stop on your whistle?

Did you ever go to the alternate for information?

Did they have PTS for the finals? We didn't have any for the Semi's this year; last year's Semi's we had packs. (I worked my Semi at the Siegel Center this season).

I don't think it's a foul. Defender got the ball and then got her arm out of there quickly. That's why the shot went long. The body language of #2 also tells me she didn't think there was contact on her arm. The video looks bad, but I don't see any contact on the arm.

Yes, we had PTS. Not sure why it didnt work here.

Didnt go to the alternate but I should have. And yes, they had PTS for the finals but not semis this year apparently. My semi at Hampton did not use them either.

In real time, I am calling a foul (from the camera perspective). The defense put herself in a bad situation by coming over the top of the shooters arms when she lost verticality. As a coach, I would be upset with my defense when called for a foul similar to this (had it been called). I have had my players tell me that they didn't touch her and my response was not to put yourself in that situation.

Jamestown boys and King’s Fork girls lose in state title game | WAVY-TV

This is supposedly the embed link to a video that is on a TV station's website link. I do not know the origin of the video.

If anyone could embed that it would be great. Doesnt show the drive to the basket but does show the ending sequence, putting time back on clock, and explanation to coach.

Sorry, that just seems to link to TV station website. Maybe its this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%3Ci...hrome&ie=UTF-8