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1.9 Sec left in Playoff game TO Granted with none left leads to Coach Ejection (Video
Newly registered on forum, but it has been a great wealth of knowledge for me in the past as a guest.
Very wild finish. An excess timeout was granted to the team after a rebound in a tie game. This leads to the Head Coach receiving two technical fouls, all with 1.9 sec left in the game. Last 1.9 seconds <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QlrF5G-5dUE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Last four minutes of game <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-MT9HVwH3J4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
He probably should've gotten the T's and the boot a heck of a lot sooner. Charging out on the court like that? That's embarrassing. Was game management there to get him off the court ASAP?
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And according to our FB reporters, the opposing team missed the first 2 free throws in the aftermath.
The game could have continued on if not for the coach losing his cool. |
Wild indeed. Lots going on but why in the world are all those people along the end line? Why are all those people allowed to be crossing the court? Lots of security in place so why aren't they taking care of that stuff?
As far as officiating goes, I realize any official can grant the timeout but with 1.9 to go, it should not have been the new trial to have recognized it. New lead is closer and so is the slot. |
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The best part of the longer video is that the player shooting the technical foul shots missed the first two. If the coach doesn't act like a complete fool, the game probably moves right on to OT.
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Too many officials will try to say they should have ignored the request in the name of "game management". I don't use the word lightly, but to me that's a cowardly approach to officiating.
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Saints earn wild win over Foothills Christian - The San Diego Union-Tribune
Article says a player called a timeout. I guess they just decided to ignore the new rule about people being in the lane area beyond the end line. |
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I'd love to see it from a better angle. |
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To who can see the timeout by the coach (granted, as it turns out, the coach didn't have one here, but let's say he had), the new trail usually has the best opportunity to peek down the line in this situation. T or C might be closer, but in transition, turning their head, or trying to hear TO in such a loud environment....it's not that easy. Quote:
Coach didn't want to face the reality that one of his players had a Chris Webber moment. Sucks, but if he accepts that instead of making false assumptions and losing his mind, that game could very well be going to OT. That is 100%, unequivocally, on the head coach. |
My mistake, I assumed it was the head coach calling it the way the trail comes up pointing at the bench. I only watched it once and didn't catch the player calling it.
And I thought the official did a good job of trying to control the madness. The HC went nuts and was in his face a long while before he issued the 2nd T. |
The coach never asked #3 if he had asked for one. And it looks like he was barking at another one of his players and then...
13:40 – Looks like the coach is asking who called it. 13:45 – Kid who called it hides from the officials. 13:53 – Maybe with some encouragement from his friends the kid decides to come out from hiding and, well, fib. If he had owned up to it in a timely manner he would have saved his coach and his team from the rest of it. But the coach could have just believed the professionals on the floor and went back to the huddle and got to the bottom of it while there was still a chance to win the game. |
After the blocked shot with .1 on the clock, did the white coach come on the court to administer to the injured player?
What up with that? How did the officials dally by going to the table and let the shooter catch a blow before administering FTs? |
About 35 seconds into the long version, there's an apparent prelim double-foul signal that apparently goes AWOL
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Looks like kid called a TO. Hopefully the officials had expressed that to the coach. If they did and he still acted that way I don't understand how he didn't get the boot earlier.
Man, why did that official walk so far away while the coach followed him. I would have tossed him once I got past the halfcourt and he was still following me. I wouldn't leave this one up to my partner. Although it was nice of his partner to NOT step between, and wait until he hit the stands and had no where else to go. |
I clearly see one of the kids gesture to an official. That does not look like he is clapping, that looks like he is asking for a timeout.
Well the coach looks silly by making a bigger issue out of this when it appears the officials got this right. I bet when he saw the video he felt stupid. Maybe not, he is after all a coach. It is never their fault for these things. Peace |
Not completely relevant here, but it always amazes me how some coaches believe teenagers over officials.
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Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk |
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Peace |
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I assigned 2 games where an official double tapped the coach. In both instances, it's cause the official felt like it was his duty to get close to the table and report the technical like it was just another foul. This doesn't fit that scenario. That coach needed to go.....sooner. |
Here is the kid requesting a timeout.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PWtJJjrZBbg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Peace |
And where did the official go after the first technical?
Over to the table. Is there anyone in the building that *didn't* know what happened there? I wish officials would STOP doing that. |
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This is an independent observation I've made a few times this season, including last night when I called a head coach technical and my partner asked me "did you report it"? No, I brought my hands together into a T and hit my whistle. Everyone knew, including the table and the coach. I went right to the C to get opposite the table. If he wants to get me, he's gonna have to come a long way. |
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Also, in reference to Rich's comment about coaches believing teenagers over professionals, you're right, but I wouldn't be surprised if the coach never sees THIS film. Unfortunately, I bet he watches his manager's sideline film, doesn't see clear evidence of the timeout request, and still thinks he's right. Too bad. |
Normal fouls I'm as far from the table as I can be. Techs I come closer to make sure it is annotated correctly and there is no mis-communication.
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You are wrong and everyone knows it. Sad that you push this incorrect advice upon the officials whom you assign. |
Did anyone notice number 1 talking to the official before the free throw? Looks like he was telling him that he was going to call the time out ahead of time.
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1.9 Sec left in Playoff game TO Granted with none left leads to Coach Ejection (Video
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It's not "just another foul" no matter how much this phrase is used in camp speak. I'm saying the reporting area is a fairly big rectangle, which can be expanded even further if needed. I find it funny that the reporting area is considered fairly unimportant overall, but when a coach gets whacked it all of a sudden gets important. I continue to see officials get closer and right in the kitchen of the coach they just whacked. No, I didn't run over and report the technical Tuesday. My partner, who ended up tableside, who I talked to prior to the FTs, slid over to the table and made sure it was scored correctly while we were administering the free throws. I'm not sure anyone even noticed him doing that. Yup, Nevada, I tell my officials to take care of business, but I also think that the 30 seconds after a technical foul is usually the worst time for the coach and the official in terms of their mental/emotional state and it's best for the calling official to get away from the bench area. It does not serve the game well to have ejections that are avoidable. The one in the video was going to happen. But that doesn't mean that I can't point out that I think there are ways to minimize the possibility in other games. Not all coaches are stable enough to handle a technical foul well and that 30 seconds of space gives the coach a chance to calm down and/or explode....but that's wholly on him. Yes, I assign. In that role, I've made it clear that coaches, in general, get too few technical fouls and that officials, in general, allow too much poor sportsmanship. But coaches are human and receiving a technical foul usually calms things down....but not in the first 30 seconds or so. So, with that reality, why be anywhere near there during that time period? |
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I don't run, I walk away. I think there's a difference. |
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Here is a follow up article on the game. The Foothills team still advanced because of the playoff structure but apparently played their next game without the head coach due to a one game suspension. The coach comments on the player calling timeout. Obviously in the heat of the moment, his emotions got the best of him.
Foothills Christian coach suspended one game - The San Diego Union-Tribune |
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Nah, probably not. |
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Thanks. |
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I called the first one, and happened to be in front of his bench. As I made the call and turned to the table to make the report, he started the sarcastic cheering that earned him his 2nd. I wonder, had I immediately started walking to administer the FTs, would he have taken the opportunity to settle down? In that game (6th grade boys travel league in the summer), I doubt it. |
One game because he didn't use profanity and didn't make contact with the official? That is BS. He came all the way across the court and physically intimidated and made contact with the official. Easily should be worth a 3 game suspension under the parameters laid out in the article.
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On the timeout technical, I would've been right at the table, certainly. I would've reported the timeout, would've given the number of the player, and would've communicated that and the technical foul to the coach. If the coach blows up AT ME there, there's not much I can do about it. I didn't call the timeout, after all. I wouldn't back away from a charging coach waiting for my partner to give the second technical (keeping in mind, I'm likely in the C position already) as the official did in this video. Perhaps it's expected there that no official hits a coach with both....and this video, perhaps, is a good example of why having a formal policy on it is not really a good idea. |
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If a coach pulls that on me, I'm calling a T as soon as I feel the need to back away to avoid contact. |
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“Our section has one of the toughest ejection policies in the state,” Schniepp said. “Three games is for the use of profanity. Six games is for something physical.”
All he did was chase him down to the other side of the court and since the official kept moving there was no contact, and he only used the word fiddlesticks so I think 1 game is more than enough. In fact the official has been suspended for 2 months for awful "game management". |
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If following the NFHS mechanics, the calling official will always be tableside (3-person, or on any foul with FTs in 2-person). |
Wow. Complete failure by the coaching staff. None of his assistants actively tried to restrain the coach and it looks like a female parent/fan from the stands has to come on the court to grab him after his 2nd T.
And I understand they wanted to pack the place and it seems like it was a great atmosphere to ref in but I'm not having cheerleaders breathing on my neck or all those people on the endline like that. |
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Peace |
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And for this situation, there's even a blurb about "avoiding a confrontational situation" or something to that effect. |
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And I agree that it is good to deviate when prudent, but it doesn't need to be automatic. |
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None Of My Business ...
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A player shall not: Leave the playing court for an unauthorized reason to demonstrate resentment, disgust or intimidation Am I correct to assume that this is only for "players", not for substitutes, or bench personnel, or other team members? Also, this refers to leaving the playing court, not leaving the gymnasium? Right? |
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Had a varsity HS game years ago when the table told me Team A had 1 timeout left. I informed the assistant of Team A they had 1 left. Later in the fourth quarter Team A called a timeout, I went to the Table and reported and the table informed me that Team A had no more timeouts. I now become the villain of course. Taught me a lesson to never tell either team how many timeouts they have left except when they have none. I would assume the officials knew that that team had no more timeouts. Can you ignore the request (Google Paul Silas Celtics triple overtime game in 1976), and the aforementioned Chris Webber game) knowing that the team has no timeouts and it would result in a technical foul? Just sayin...
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Scorer And Official ...
I certainly hope that one of the officials told the coach that he had used up all of his timeouts.
The scorer shall: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out. Whenever I do that, the coach almost immediately tells his players not to request a timeout. |
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You'll note that no one except other officials ever really questions whether this should be called. No one even knows who the officials were in that Webber game. You ignore it, and the other coach is going to have a right to go ballistic. I'd much rather explain that #3 requested a timeout than explain why I ignored what was right in front of me. |
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Peace |
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Tell them when they've got none left ... otherwise, don't say anything. |
Until we get to zero, the only thing I'm curious about is if they still have a choice on timeout length. I'll try to track when they're out of each so I don't have to bother asking the coach.
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Peace |
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By case anyway.....This falls directly under the "If some rules are never enforced, then why do they exist?" category. |
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Also not sure what rules you suggest are never enforced. The rule for timeouts requires the scorer to inform the officials that they are out of timeouts. I have had this discussion here before, often that is clearly not necessary as they already know they are out of timeouts as the conversation between the officials and the table on this matter is not a secret. Assistants also know they are out of timeouts and they make it clear they are out of timeouts or they ask on their own. Heck I have had opponents tell me that the other team is out of timeouts. This is not rocket science here, people count timeouts just like they count other things. We really make stuff like this too complicated. At least that is in my experience. Peace |
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Do you ignore when a player steps OOB even though they had plenty of room to stay inbounds but were not paying attention? |
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Right or wrong, I can easily see where many officials would have ignored this alleged TO request. |
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Went ahead and amended that statement for you. And to echo Rich, Alleged? There was a TO request. It was recognized and granted. End of that part of the story. |
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Nobody Request A Timeout, Or You're Walking Home ...
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Horseshoes And Hand Grenades ...
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NFHS: The scorer shall: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out. Note: I don't believe that this happened in this specific situation (the coach was probably informed), but if either the table, or the officials, didn't do what they are, by (NFHS) rule, supposed to do, then there is some blame, in varying amounts, to be shared by the coach, the player, the table, and the officials, for the disaster that followed, mainly on the coach, and the player, but if I were that official who was informed by the table and then failed to inform the coach, I would not have a totally guilt free drive home that night, "Man, I wish I had informed the coach that he had used all of his timeouts". (I don't know what the NCAA rule is.) If the table does what it's supposed to do, and if the officials do what they are supposed to do, then it takes both of them out of the equation, blameless for the subsequent disaster, putting 100% of the blame on the coach and/or the player. |
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My Game
Let me answer a few questions:
The "new rule" nobody between lane lines. Game administration was asked to keep that area free for the game. The main entry way is there as well as the snack bar and bathrooms. They stopped people there while the play was occurring on that end. Each opportunity they had, they moved people in the gym and away from that area, as we also did many times. Benches. Due to staircases and the layout of the gym the benches have always been moved to where you see them. Not the best scenario, but the home team management places the benches (1-13-1). This was the last game in this gym as the new one is almost finished. The play: The foul at 0:01.9 was a hard foul, but a basketball play. Nothing intentional or flagrant. (Double whistle) The trainer for white ran onto the court. When #5 went to the line to shoot and realized he was staying into the court, one official went to St. Augustine coach to let him know he needed to call a timeout to keep his player in the game or to sub him (3-2-6). He called a time out. First free throw made. Foothills Christian (black) calls their final timeout. The scorer notifies FCHS head coach that is his last timeout and he acknowledges in front of the official. Second free Throw missed and rebounded by FCHS #5. Prior to securing the rebound, but knowing that #5 will get it as he is all alone, #3 turns to the new trail and begins yelling "time-out" many times progressively louder and by signaling visually multiple times for a time-out. The request is granted. In addition as FCHS was walking to their bench you can see that #1 is also signaling time-out. As the calling official goes to report the timeout, signaling toward the black team's bench (it was very loud in the gym) the head coach for FCHS gets in the way of the official and doesn't allow him to get to report. (The scorers table is two rows up into the stands, so all officials had to be a little closer to the sideline when reporting during loud moments). As the coach is screaming "no he didn't, no he didn't" the official tells the coach to return to the bench and let the crew get together as the game is not over. The coach ignores the request and continues on to the official repeating the same thing. The official repeats to the coach that the game is NOT over and to please allow us to figure it (technical foul, resumption of play, time remaining, etc) out. He continues coming at the official finally snapping his head and yelling "bulls**t". (So much for the newspaper and CIF report of no profanity) The calling official now gives an unsporting technical foul to the head coach of FCHS. The coach turns away and goes to his bench. As the official is (finally) reporting the excessive time out and the unsporting technical, FCHS head coach returns to scream at the calling official, "How can you call that!" over and over. The calling official now walks toward the semi-circle at half court but feeling the coach follow him, decides to turn around for his own safety. The official backs up to the other sideline and (finally) with no place left to go, looks over the shoulder of the coach to his partner who gives him his second (and disqualifying) technical foul and ejects him. Time remaining was 1.9 at the initial final free Throw. The crew decided that they would take off 0:00.4 resulting in 0:01.5 showing on the clock. FCHS #1 leaving the gym. During an intermission or a time-out all players are considered bench personnel (4-34-2). The requirement of not leaving the playing court or bench area is for an unauthorized reason. (10-6-6). An assistant coach retrieved #1 and he returned to the game as a player following the time-out. The crew was not going to specifically ask the reason why he left, as there may have been a legal reason. I hope all questions were answered here. I will not comment or reply on anything regarding crew chemistry, comments of partners not doing their job or anything else negative. The crew talked about many things in the post game. In addition, two state evaluators were in the gym, and the post game as well as the association president and many other officials. Thank you. |
Links
Mark Ziegler from the San Diego Tribune posts this on his twitter feed https://mobile.twitter.com/Jack10Spe...680832/video/1
Crazy End to San Diego H.S. Basketball Game | NBC 7 San Diego sandiegoinformer.com/37130/playoff-game-ends-in-chaos-coach-ejected-Chris-Webber-moment-foothills-Christian-v-st-Augustine-San-diego-videos/ High School Basketball Team Loses After Getting Charged with 3 Technical Fouls | Bleacher Report www.sbnation.com/look it/2017/3/2/14792048/san-diego-high-school-basketball-chris-webber-timeout-chaos-video VIDEO: Wild Calif. playoff finish includes a Chris Webber moment and coach ejection | | USA Today High School Sports I think that's all of them lol. |
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A couple of rules things for you to contemplate should you wish. 1. There is no NFHS rule extant that a player gaining possession of a ball from a rebound or throw-in after the clock has been stopped requires 3/10ths of a second. The NBA does have such a rule. The NFHS has issued a ruling that the officials need to make some allowance for the catching of the ball in such situations, if there is a timing error, and that allowance is "likely tenths of a second." How many is at the discretion of the officials. Don't confuse this with the NFHS rule requiring more than 3/10ths of a second remaining in a quarter in order for a player to catch and try for goal. How long it takes to catch and shoot is not the same as how long it takes to just catch a ball. The crew did the right thing by removing some tenths from the clock for the rebound being secured during the immediate time-out request, but don't cite a 0.3 seconds rule for this. The crew could have removed only 0.2, if it believed that was accurate. 2. The correct rule for dealing with FCHS #1 leaving the gym is actually 10-6-5: "The head coach shall not permit team members to leave the bench area and/or playing court for an unauthorized reason." It most certainly applies to more than the five players because it specifies team members. It was crafted a few years ago and is designed to keep the team members in the bench area and prevent them from entering the stands or the hallway outside the gym. Your crew could have chosen to penalize #1 under this rule. I believe that the crew did an excellent job with end of the game situation. The player just made a mistake which was then compounded by the poor behavior of the coach. Best wishes should any of you end up with assignments during the SoCal Regionals or a State Final. |
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Same two things I was going to mention. I think the clock should have been closer to ~0.6 given when the TO was acknowledged, but I'd be lying if claimed I could remember that after all the crud that followed. I knew some time had to go back on, and 1.5 seemed plenty reasonable to me. No issues there. Good summary, C99. Reads like it was cut and paste from a required formal report. [emoji6] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Leave The Bench Area And/Or Playing Court For An Unauthorized Reason …
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10.5.5 SITUATION A: Airborne shooter A1 is fouled by B1 after the ball is released on the try. Playing time for the second quarter expires while the unsuccessful try is in flight. Since no players are required to line up for the free throws, Team B’s head coach takes the team to the locker room to begin the intermission. RULING: Team B’s head coach is assessed a direct technical foul for permitting team members to leave the bench/court for an unauthorized reason. Even though no time remains on the game clock, the quarter doesn't end until A1’s free throws are completed; therefore, the technical foul is part of the second quarter. A1 will attempt the two shooting-foul free throws followed by any Team A member attempting the two free throws for the technical foul. The Team B head coach has lost coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game. The third quarter will begin with the alternating-possession procedure. (5-6-2 Exception 3) 10.5.5 SITUATION B: A spectator heckles Team A member, A9, while he/she is sitting on Team A’s bench. A9 leaves the bench area and goes into the stands to confront the fan. RULING: Team A’s head coach is assessed a direct technical foul for permitting A9 to leave the bench area for an unauthorized reason. Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. The Team A head coach has lost coaching-box privileges for the remainder of the game. Let's also keep in mind the "unauthorized" part of the rule. Going to the lavatory, or the trainer's room, could certainly be authorized reasons, even if only authorized by the coach. I've never had a player ask me for permission to use the lavatory during a game. |
I was going to list that the penalty for 10-6-5 is a direct T to the head coach, but decided that wasn't necessary given that the crew handled everything else so well. I figured that they would know how to penalize this action had they elected to go that route.
Curiously, in this specific situation, the head coach had already been ejected. We could therefore ask to whom the technical foul should be correctly assessed. Logic would tell us whichever asst coach had assumed the lead of the team, but nothing in the rules dictates this. Have to invoke 2-3. |
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And I would not have any guilt what so ever on any level. It is your responsibility as a team to keep track of things in the game. If you don't, then shame on you. If you do not know what timeouts you have used any more than you do not know how many fouls a player has, then same on you. I would feel just fine as I have done many many playoff games and kids and coaches often lose their heads. And I would not care one bit if we told them or not about their timeout situation. Again, one of the dumbest things I think some worry about. They know every other darn thing, we have to tell them they are out of timeouts for them to really know? OK. Peace |
Did they shoot enough free throws? Weren't there 4 T's?
1 for the extra timeout 2 for the head coach 1 for #1 getting ejected Shouldn't they have shot 8 free throws? |
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#1 wasn't ejected. |
Shame On You ...
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It's not a flexible mechanic, it's a rule. The scorer shall: Record the time-out information charged to each team (who and when) and notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out. This isn't some type of courtesy that officials extend to teams and coaches, it's a long recognized rule that most of us have followed dozens (maybe more) of times. In my thirty-six years, as the calling official granting, and reporting, the final allotted timeout, and being informed as such by the table, I have never, ever, failed to inform the head coach, either during, or immediately after, the timeout, or, failing to get the attention of the head coach without interrupting his huddle, informing the assistant coach. As the non calling official, if the situation presents itself, I have asked my partner, "Did you inform the coach?". If the officials are informed by the table and they choose not to inform the team/coach, then they have simply kicked a rule (and in 99.9% (maybe more) of all cases, this doesn't result in any negative ramifications). Now, some officials do go beyond the rule and extend the courtesy of communicating to teams/coaches how many timeouts (before using all of them) they have remaining, "Coach, you have one sixty second timeout left", but that's outside of the rules, isn't required by the NFHS, and is more of a personal and/or local custom (maybe for building good rapport with the coaches). I don't do that, and my local board officials are instructed not to do that. It's a classic "When in Rome ..." situation. |
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Like Rut, I wouldn't lose much sleep. |
Safe And Restful Sleep, Sleep, Sleep ...
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Rich wouldn't lose much sleep over kicking this rule that resulted in a disaster at the end of a game. Neither would I. Some, but not much. My worst call of the season, and it wasn't even my call. Late in a game my partner (a highly regarded state tournament official) kicks a rule regarding a double free throw violation and how to penalize the violation. I wasn't aware of his call, because I was keeping my eye on my own primary, but I could tell from his voice and body language that he was only 95% certain of the call, especially in his dealing with two questions from the coach. After the game, discussing the call, we discovered that he kicked the rule, costing the losing team (in an overtime game) a free throw, maybe two free throws, and the arrow, near the end of regulation. I should have approached him with a "What did you have?" which would have saved us from kicking the rule. Instead, I just let him make his call, make his explanation to the coach, and I just put the ball in play as if he knew 100% what he was doing. The losing coach politely approached us in the locker room after the game with a question and we had to admit that we kicked the call. Lose sleep? No. But I could have been a better partner. Retrospective, and some feelings of remorse, guilt, conscience, or responsibility (I couldn't come up with the right word, so I used four, but these words are too strong so take them down a notch to get my meaning) after kicking a call are good things for officials. It's makes us better officials and demonstrates that we care about doing our jobs well, in the past, in the present, and in the future. |
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