Block charge and aftermath
 

Hey guys,
Wanted to get everyone's thoughts on the play at 1:26:58.

https://youtu.be/xPhx0xH9daY

I'll play:

Charge, not block.

Contact before shot, so even if a block, basket shouldn't count.

Now the refs can opine.:)

W1 had a LGP against B1. The ball was still in B2's hands when B1 charged into W1. Charging foul (TCF) by B1, the ball is dead immediately, no points for Team B, and Team W receives the ball for a DST on the End Line.

I have no idea what the L was looking to come up with a blocking foul on this play.

MTD, Sr.

Lets assume that this was a blocking foul (which it was not), then CM applies and the B2's basket is good.

MTD, Sr.

Condensed - Only the play
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5C5cdhzu190" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Calling official said he had a good look and that the defender leaned into shooter's path.

Alternative facts?

Who was watching the ten players while the three officials huddled?

The official did not have a good look. Charge all the way, not even close. Disagree with counting the basket on the block call as well. Offensive player is just catching the pass when the crash occurs. Should have been wiped off. Why would the T come in with this information anyway, the pass goes to C primary and he didn't think the basket should count. Terrible officiating all around.

Team control, for reasons already cited.

Block charge and aftermath
 

Agree as above stated. Ball was gone and defender had LGP. Passer trucked him. Gotta ship that one.

Is there still be a belief by some officials that the defender has to "take the contact" in order to have a charge?
We must rid the earth of such thinking!

Agreed!

IT should have been a charge. However how they adjudicated was correct. The offensive player was in his shooting motion at the time of the foul so the basket counts, then adjudicate the penalty for the block.

Pause at first contact: ball is still in air toward the shooter. (And yes, I realize they don't get to do that and it's a really tough call to make live.)

I think these guys screwed this up, big time. Got the block/charge wrong and then made an error by awarding 2 points. Even if it was a block, the basket shouldn't have counted.

I think its a very poor sequence for this crew.

Would love to have seen the coach's reaction.

Well I might get torn apart for it, but I'll go to bat for the lead just a little bit here. While I do still think it was a charge after several viewings, I also think it would be interesting to see an endline angle, which obviously is unavailable. Just before contact, W11 runs directly between the players and the camera angle, and just as he gets out of the way, the contact is occurring, and the kid who took the "charge" has his right leg at a weird angle outside of his frame, whereas it didn't look like that before the view is interrupted. This could imply that he was, in fact, sliding to his left at the time of impact. (Although I do acknowledge that his could be part of him bracing for contact as well, as I said, I'd love to have an unobstructed angle of the full play)

I realize I'm analyzing this too far, and as I said, I still think it was a charge, but the more I've watched it, the less certain I think I am-

Good crew
 

Saw a lot of the video before becoming aware of Rut's condensed version. This was a very good crew and well officiated game. It wouldn't surprise me if all of them have some college assignments. Don't these college have guidelines directing them to go "block" on close iffy plays. Around here, we all follow Women's college mechanics and philosophies. And, this year at camp, even the Women clinicians were advocating a "block" on 50-50 plays. I guess they need more scoring???

I don't think the L was surprised by the play and could have seen some sideways movement. I have no idea how they could move to CM but as someone pointed out, these guys did not get to look at video.

I tend to error on side of calling charge. Hard to get kids to take one. Having said that, offense is airborne and looks to me that defender is leaning left into his path. Falls toward block. I'm not able to say this is an obvious charge from our angle.

I do agree based on video that the basket should not count if block is call. In real time I'd understand if it was missed. Happens quick.

No. At least not on the Men's side. They want you to call a charge if you have a charge by rule. What Women's side does is a mystery to me, but as a high school official it is clear that they mirror more the Men's philosophies or positions on everything from positioning and rotation philosophies.

Peace

It is a pretty good crew. Pretty sure one does D1, certain one does JC, not sure about the third. It was a well done game.

Women's take a lot of their lead from the WNBA regarding training/philosophies.

Explain for the casual observer, please!

Some would say:

"If the defender is moving backwards, it's not a charge."

"If the defender doesn't get run over, it's not a charge."

"The offense must go 'to and through' the defender to be a charge."

"If the offense alters the path slightly so the contact is shoulder-to-shoulder and not torso-to-torso, it's not a charge."

The easy, and CORRECT call, is to wave off the basket. What we really have here is a team control foul and the basket should not have counted as the contact occurred before the shooter is even going up. To count this basket is terrible officiating.

Unless he clearly got the shot off before the contact, this is an easy basket to wave off.

I agree with you. I have a charge from our angle, but it's possible that the defender's leg may be extended outside his vertical frame. I'm not going to say that the video is 100% conclusive.

I know and one of the reasons I have less respect for their decisions.

Peace

I was under the impression that the WNBA, NBA, and D-League all operate under the same training philosophies.

I know 2 of the 3 officials very well...both are excellent playcallers. I think the L missed the play, but I think this is a tough play live. 2 bang/bang occurrences.

I have been texting the crew chief and they felt like shooting motion had started when l blew his whistle...They didn't have video to review. He has looked at the video and would change things. He also told me that they are going to review this play at their next chapter meeting.

I talked with the cc about this very thing. After seeing the video, he agreed.

And, does that extend to the College Women's?

I don't know, outside of floor coverage, which does.

I understand where you are coming from on the other platitudes (if I'm using that word correctly), but what is about "to and through" that you don't like, specifically?

I know the question was not directed to me, but "to and through" has nothing to do with the rule. That phrase often implies that it is required for the offensive player to drive through the defender, and put them on the ground for it to be a foul. If there is legal guarding position and sufficient contact to cause displacement, then it should be an offensive foul. I've called charges where the defender remained standing and the offensive player was on the ground before (though these are typically better left as a no-call).

Basically, this.

I guess I just don't interpret "to and through" that way. To me, it's a good reminder not to reward a defender who goes down from too little contact. Interesting to hear another viewpoint or two. Thanks!

I agree we shouldn't do that either.

Too often when the offense would make contact and "transfer" all his momentum to the defense so the defense moved backwards, there would be no call because the offense also stopped moving and never went through the spot where the defense was (think of billiard balls, for example).

Seems to be a PC. I think the lead missed this one, and it looks like to me he is talked into counting the basket by the trail. The trail immediately goes to him and then the discussion happens.

I think this is clearly a charge. But if you are going to call the block, I think the basket can and should count in this situation.

Peace

I talked to the T. I can guarantee you that he was not "talking the L" into counting the basket.

They talked about the status of the ball when the foul occurred and the crew (with much input from the C) decided that the basket should count.

Fair enough. I just disagree with it.