Cinncinati/Xavier plays
 

9:46 - block/charge

9:32 - Should be a decent continuous motion play to discuss.

If anyone can clip these it would be appreciated.

Cmon ZM, you better than that dude! You didn't say which half!

Here are the plays, in the first half.
 

Play #1: 9:46 - block/charge

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/5bI-PNcYitk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Play #2: 9:32 - Should be a decent continuous motion play to discuss

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/V6l8TvfM1sk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Peace

Whoops.

Thanks, JRut.

1. Good call
2. Eh. Definitely with a hop after initial contact and before shot goes up. Probably shouldn't have counted it but in full speed I can see it.

Play 1 is basically about as close as it gets.

Did the defender stop moving forward before the offensive player left the ground to catch the pass? I looked at in slo-mo and still can't decide

Announcer is dead wrong though. He's got the ball, you don't have to give a chance to a damn thing (other than touch the floor if you got there late). Live, I probably would've had a block too.

Very difficult play to officiate too, unless you're disciplined enough to stare at the empty lane in your PCA with a trap 3 feet away from you.

The block/charge play is close. Did the defender establish his position prior to the offensive player going airborne? It is tough to tell even with the video. The offensive player doesn't come down on the floor either. He lands on the defender's foot and then crashes into him.
Difficult play, but I call a charge when it is super close.

The other play is not even close. Only MTD and the guy working the game would count the goal. Cinci/Xavier? Perhaps its an Ohio thing.

1. Close but correct. Defender didn't get to the spot in time.
2. I agree with the call of counting the bucket. The player started the shooting action before being fouled. You could argue he traveled but I doubt very many would call that.

Block charge call was a tough one. Good call by the official. In real time I thought he'd kicked it and that it was a charge. Super slo mo shows he has better eyes than I do. Good call.

The continuos motion call here is tough. I guess it depends on how patient your whistle it. There is contact before he's in his shooting motion in between there is also contact that may or may be during shooting motion but is definitely during a feet shuffle, there is contact while he is in shooting motion. At what point you felt the contact was enough to call the foul may be the standard here. I am probably not going with continuation here.

Agreed that Play 1 is essentially as close as it gets. I can go either way. In real time, I'd likely have called a block.

Play 2, no goal. I agree he was fouled in his initial shooting motion (which is when the official raises his fist and blows his whistle), but THEN he reloads after the defender goes by/play is blown dead. Yes, it's a tough sell to award 2 shots and not count the goal, but that is how I see this one. Player was prevented from finishing his initial motion by the foul ... and then decided to try again unimpeded after the whistle.

I think the second play is much tougher than the first. I have an easy block on the first. I can see either on the second but would lean toward counting the basket.

Now I'll go back and watch the slo-mo versions.

Play #1: I have a block. The defender is still coming forward when the player goes airborne. It was not that hard of a call IMO. Saw that when I first saw the play.

Play #2: I guess it depends on when the foul was called. I am thinking he did not actually call the foul until the player was coming down from the air and grabbed the shooter. If you feel the contact was before that, then you do not have a counted basket. I can see both sides but understand that the official is standing and seeing the left arm as well that we do not see. I would like to ask him what he had ultimately, which is not likely going to happen. :D

Peace

Agree on both. I was 50/50 on the second one when I saw it but I don't think he had a foul until later in the sequence when the defender came down on top of the shooter. It wouldn't be popular but I am okay with counting the basket.

Both are razor thin margins either way....

1) I like block here...my gut reaction first time in real time. Looks to be moving forward slightly in slow-mo. Certainly wouldn't question a charge from the official though.

2) Shooter appears to have gathered and started up at point of contact. Count it.

Depends on what the lead is calling on #2. We're seeing a bump that he may have passed on and held the whistle and called a foul later in the sequence.

I've been known to hold a whistle during prolonged contact until I'm certain that I'm going with a foul and then it might be during the shot whereas if I'm fast with my whistle (which is never desirable) it comes much earlier in the sequence.

1. block 2. i also think he called the foul when defender grabbed him going up. good basket.

1. In real time I had a PC, but I can see it as a block from the other angle. I don't think you could go wrong either way here. That being said, I probably would have punched it (PC)

2. It if you pass on the first foul, then yes, you count the bucket on the second foul. I had 'no shot' because I wouldn't pass on the first foul.

Good plays.

The offensive player is in the air, after jumping towards the basket, before the defender gets to the spot and gains LGP, when he catches the ball. And he lands on the defender's foot. Now, you can assume that he would have fallen into the defender anyway and committed a PC foul, but I'm not assuming anything. I'm calling this one a blocking foul.

BTW, maybe it's a college thing, but I don't recall a part of the rule saying something like "you gotta give the player a chance to change direction", like the announcer is saying. Is this another "the announcers, for the most part, are idiots" thing?

ssdd.

Play 1. In real time I would have went PC. That was a 50/50, in my opinion, and I will reward the defense for taking the contact in the torso. A 50/50 call and the contact is shoulder to shoulder then I will go block.

Play 2. That is too close to allow continuous motion. I feel that to award the shot and the foul, it has to be no doubt. I have awarded this a couple of times this year and had coaches and crowd complain that we are not playing in the NBA.

As far as the game announcers, they need to avoid these types of comments. They made some comments that mislead viewers, in turn we hear it at games.

In 14/15 NCAA rules for legal guarding position were the same as NFHS rules regarding time and distance (on and off ball). I am not sure if they changed since then so the announcer was more than likely wrong there.

Am I the only person a little uncomfortable when people say something like "I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the defender" on block/charge calls? I mean... what is it?

I'm all for rewarding good defense, but it sounds like some defenders are getting away with illegal defense.

I guess when I say 50/50 either call could be defended. If I call a charge and a coach does not like it and and asks for an explanation I could back up my call. Same for a block. In real time some block/charge calls are tough to get 100%.

Edit:

I previously mentioned my standard for my decision regarding a call that could go either way. A kid making contact to the defenders chest more than likely did not try to avoid contact so I will go charge when it is close. A kid making contact on a shoulder more than likely made an attempt to get the head and shoulders around the defense so I will go block when it is close. So, there is a method to my madness.

If it's truly 50/50 in my mind, I'm shipping it.

It's rarely 50/50 in my mind, however.

I understand what you're both saying. Thanks

It is likely that those coaches don't realize the NFHS does have continuous motion or what it means, not that you called it incorrectly.

If there is any doubt, I'm counting the basket and/or putting the player on the line for 2.....every single time.

I am just the opposite -- if it's that close, it's on the shot. Too many officials don't award ENOUGH free throws, IMO.

If you and I were working this game together and you gave him that, I would have your back. I respect your thought process. My biggest concern is making sure the foul is called.

And I would have yours if you said the foul was before the shot.

Play 1: Block

Play 2: Common foul. Could get away with shooting with later whistle.

Both are so close, who cares what was called. Either option is right.