Block or Charge or No Call (Video)
 

What are the teaching points in this clip?

As a coach, I want to know if this is called correctly so I can teach my kids.

I see legal guarding position followed by lateral movement. Who has the right to the floor space if both players arrive at the same instant?

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_o6cI_WohVY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

There is no video.

Peace

Doesn't look like lateral movement to me.

(Carry on the dribble before contact)
Definite BLOCK and I love the T's mechanics

LGP? Yes. But the subsequent movement is decidedly toward the ball handler. To be honest it's not really close.

This question isn't relevant since the defender committed a personal foul, i.e. the defender blocked the ball handler. It's not a matter of who arrived when.

I think you're thinking of a loose ball situation where two opponents are both moving to a spot together. In this case, contact may be incidental, even if severe, if both players were legally converging without employing illegal contact.

(That would be a really bad carrying call, IMO.)

This is not lateral movement.

By "lateral" movement we're not talking about the defender's right to move sideways. What that means is the defender has to move in the same direction (forwards/backwards/right/left) as the dribbler. I can't remember the exact wording in the rule book, but it may also mention speed as well.

The defender in this case indeed moves sideways, but not at all in the same direction that the ball handler is moving.

http://avcssbasketball.com/wp-conten...cking-Foul.jpg

Block or Charge or No Call (Video)
 

Let's see if this works

https://youtu.be/_o6cI_WohVY

I'm good with the block call here. She lost LGP and did not reestablish it.

And I do not have a carry.

I'm curious what people think lateral movement really is. This player was in the path and facing the opponent with 2 feet down....she had LGP.

Then she moved in a direction that was perpendicular to the direction of her opponent, even slightly towards the endline...that is lateral movement. Lateral movement is about the direction of movement, not the direction the defender is facing. Once she has LGP, the direction she faces is no longer relevant. The fact that she turned sideways to shift does not affect LGP.

That said, I still have a block because I feel that when the dribbler changed direction, she did so quick enough that the defender was no longer in her path and had to reobtain LGP...which she didn't.

Who said anything about her turning sideways? Let alone for a reason to call a block or charge?

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

block.

Yes, that's what "lateral" means.

No, it doesn't mean what you say (especially "forward")

Speed / distance are not a consideration when guarding a player with the ball ("airborne" is a factor).

I should have added the "or obliquely" part of the rule, which implies what I said.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

Btw, the "speed" thing was about how fast the dribbler is moving (which, yes, is wrong). Not about time and distance.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

Nice Belt :D

The speed of the dribbler has nothing to do with the rule.

This is a block 100/100 times. As a coaching point, I would suggest you teach that defender to move laterally in a slide to maintain her LGP. If she arrives at the point of contact facing the ballhandler (ie the ballhandler's shoulder hits the defender in the chest or close to it) you would get your player control call. But in this case the defender turns sideways in attempt to beat her to the spot and loses her LGP and never regains it.

This is a CLEAR block. The defender does not maintain LGP and as a result of her movement her shoulder ends up in the path of the offensive player at the time of contact.o

Agreed. Now everyone agree with me or I start deleting posts and close the thread.

Oh wait sorry, forgot where I was for a minute there.

Hence the "which is wrong" part of the post

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

Once you establish LGP you may move laterally to maintain LGP.

Moving laterally does not guarantee you maintain LGP.

In the case of the video the lateral movement taken by the defender changed the defense's angle and stopped the defender from facing the ball carrier and gave the dribbler an attack line that the defense no longer had LGP established for. So shoulder to shoulder contact results in a block.


If that is too convoluted.

BLOCK.

Clarification
 

Thanks for the answers guys.

It seems that everyone is in agreement that this video portrays a block by the defender.

I truly want to understand this. My understanding (admittedly incomplete) has been that to establish LGP the defender's torso must be facing the ball handler and both feet must be on the ground. for how long, I don't know, but long enough to establish the right to the floor space, an instant.

My understanding continues that after achieving LGP the defender can move backward or laterally (but not forward toward the ball handler) and still maintain LGP.

But this notion that they cannot turn is unfamiliar to me. Are we saying that after establishing LGP that a defender cannot turn to brace for impact? Let's say that the defender did not leave her spot on the floor after establishing LGP at a particular location, but simply pivoted in place to brace for impact from a "hard-charging" ball handler, and she gets displaced from the impact (pushed backward, perhaps even thrown to the ground by the impact), this is a block, because she changed her orientation in-place?

If this is the case, please give the rule reference. I want to understand this because this is contrary to what I've always understood.

As an aside, what if we take this to the extreme? A defender is stationary in the line from the ball handler to the basket, but has her back to the defender, and the ball handler decides to dribble directly through the defender (who is facing 180 degrees from the ball handler) and displaces the defender noticeably, what is the rule here?

Thank you for your guidance.

I don't believe you have to face your opponent to maintain LGP... Just to establish.

Sent from my SM-G925V using Tapatalk

Notably, we continue to use the word "establish" rather than the word "obtain" LGP. Many years ago, the NFHS decided to use the latter, because the former seemed to imply a process, of indeterminate duration. The intent of the change in verbiage was to emphasize that when guarding a moving opponent with the ball, there is no time or distance factor involved.
In the play under discussion, it seems that the necessary factors of the block/charge rule result in a correct call of block.

A defender is allowed to brace, "how much" is at the discretion of the officials on the floor that night. Realistically we don't want them twisting half their body, covering their head, falling, and crouching into the fetal position at the same time. Mostly all this creates MORE danger for injury than just taking the hit, landing, sliding back, and moving on.

Everyone is entitled to a spot on the floor. Your second scenario is a foul on the ball handler.

This is not far off from a carry if it isn't one. Is this the reason that the defense is not just shy of being in position?

While I think that would have been called a carry back when I played, if that was called a carry today, there would be a lot of calls in the games I watch. It appears to me (from the comfort of the stands) that just as with determining when a dribble ends for determining a travel, this is a call that has swung significantly to favor offensive players.

Not sure why the first two dribbles are not a carry; to me, seemed like the ball came to rest in her hand each time.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Have at it if you want to cal those.

NFHS R4-S23-A3c (and the wording would be the same for NCAA Men's/Women's and FIBA) says:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained the guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

Moving laterally means the paths of the defensive player and the offensive player are parallel to each other.


1) At time T0: B-32 is at point B0; W-4 is at point W0; and W-4 has obtained a LGP with respect to B32.

2) At time T1: B-32 is at point B1; W-4 is at point W1; B-32 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li32 toward point B3; and W-4 changes her direction of movement thereby establishing a new straight line of movement called Li4 toward point W3.

3) B-32 moves along Li32 and W-4 moves along Li4 until they come into contact with each other at time T2. W-4 and B-32 contact each other where lines L32 and W4 intersect at point PI.

4) If the angle formed by W1-PI-B1 is equal to 0 degrees but less than or equal to 90 degrees then B-32 is responsible for the contact. If the angle formed by W1-P1-B1 is greater than 90 degrees then W-4 is responsible for the contact.

MTD, Sr.

There Aren't Too Many Of Us Left ...
 

Thank you.

I dont say this to be mean...but at some point you have to watch more basketball. This is a block and its not even close. You can talk about LGP all day but if you see enough basketball your not asking the question.

She may have had LGP but offense went other way. She didnt maintain it...Fact is thisisnt close.

Big Cat:

I do not know who you were telling to watch more basketball but I have watched more basketball, probably more than any other person on this forum: The 2016-17 season is my 46th year officiating boys'/girls' H.S. I officiated women's college basketball from 1974 to 2008, men's jr. college basketball from 1993 to 2008, and was a USA Basketball Referee from 1993 to 2003. I have officiated over 40 AAU, YBOA, and USSSA boys' and girls' national championship tournaments.

I will be the first that this play was very close to being a bang-bang play but if one referees the defense, and I were a betting man I would bet apples to oranges, that W-4 is moving obliquely away from B-32 at the moment of contact (see my post above).

I have been fortunate to have two of the foremost experts on guarding and screening (block /charge) at the H.S. level in the U.S. as personal friends: The late Ed Ferrigno of Connecticut (who was responsible for the NFHS changing the word "obtain" to "establish" in the guarding definition, and I helped him when he gave seminars on guarding and screening several times) and the immediate past national NFHS Chairman Peter Webb. I am the "bald old geezer" on this forum and I think that I am second to none with the application of the guarding and screening rules.

Just because B-32 went the other way, does not means nothing because W-4 is allowed to move to maintain her LGP. Please review NFHS 4-4-S23-3c as well as what I have posted above in red.

MTD, Sr.

I was talking about the poster. However, its a block. Whether you have 1 year or 50 years in. It is not even close. You can read a written rule and try to make it so but it just isnt. And with all due respect. It isnt close, imo. Each will have to make there own decision.

This. ^^^

Tell me what made you judge this to be a block by W-4?

MTD, Sr.

The video. This is why I mentioned to the poster to watch more plays and see how they're called by experienced referees. I'm guessing he's reading the words in rules and seeing things like your four paragraphs earlier. Head spins.

Watch plays and see what's being called.
See earlier post 32 and Camron's.

As Camron said earlier-- the offensive player changed her path and the offense did not legally get into that new path.

4-23 "Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent."

She was not in LGP at the time of contact by coming forward to the dribbler.

Peace

With all due respect to MTD's credentials on guarding and screening I'm with Big Cat on this. This is a pretty straight forward block with the only reason I can think someone would say its at all close is b/c she gets the pass off pretty easily and watching it in slo mo. But she clearly didnt do enough to maintain LGP.

And again, with all due respect, if a coach is asking about these plays in order to "teach his players" then I would agree with the suggestion that he/she should watch more basketball.

In the videos I'm seeing posted its pretty easy to see what the better defensive fundamentals should be stressed by a coach here.

Put me in the camp of:

1.) I probably wouldn't put a whistle on the play....

But if I was mandated to:

2.) Block. Blue changes her path and the defender tries to move in an effort to maintain her position but ends up not being able to...and moves fowrad into the dribbler. Honestly it's not even close with regard to block/charge IMO.

I think that's going to depend upon the game but I definitely see what you're saying.

I just don't think this is at a high enough level where I'm letting this alone. I'm assuming this is varsity ball, but...

If I don't call this block, the defensive coach is going to be in my ear wondering why it wasn't a charge. The offensive coach.......you get the picture. Just easier to call the block and move on. Especially out in the open where the defender is thrown back in this manner.

Would be nice to see the C hustle to the FTLE rather than walk towards it, though.

Agreed. In a game with bigger, stronger, more skilled players you can pass on this.

But based on the videos, this looks like a level of play where this needs to be called.

While I'm not calling this a carry, I disagree that if we started calling it we'd be calling a lot. The players would adjust fairly quickly.

It's just not something my leadership wants called that closely, so I'm not watching it that closely.

As for the foul: I could see either a no-call or a block. I don't see PC as an option because it's clear she's moving towards the dribbler at contact. It seems clear she got beat, because she turns to run rather than sliding to maintain LGP. It's not an aspect in the rules, but it is an optic thing that gives us a clue when watching, I think.

I'd like a no-call here, like APG, because the defender is at fault and there's no disadvantage to the offense. The ball went where it was supposed to go, the dribbler wasn't disrupted. Rich's points are valid about why to call it, too.

Let me ask the question: For those who would make this call, are you making the same call if it's a boys game?

As I noted before I thought the only reason to say this was close is b/c it didnt affect her getting the pass off so I agree with all you stated above.

Would I make this call in a boy's game? Maybe. I'd like to see the whole things all the way through in real time without the slo-mo impacting my thinking.

But it depends on the level of play (in terms of speed, strength, athleticism, skill level), where we are in the game, what level of contact we've been putting whistles on, any chippiness, etc.

I always pre-game to let the players play through the marginal contact if they can (automatics notwithstanding). I can see passing on this but also don't have a real problem with calling this a block at really any level of play.

To use your terminology ... what makes me judge this to be a block is that the angle you describe is not 0 or 90. She moves TOWARD the offensive player's new path (if she didn't, there would be no contact).

This is my position. If there is a foul to be called, then it is a block. But I can understand there clearly see why someone would not call a foul. Nothing was effected by this play. It was not even "rough" or unnecessary.

And since I do not work girls basketball, I am not likely making this call if I see the entire picture. My whistle would have likely come late and based on what I see, I probably would have passed on this. And that is from the high school level to the college level. I would have seen the same thing.

Peace

This must have been created in Connecticut.

It really depends if they have demonstrated they can play through this level of contact without wanting to kill each other. It goes the other way too. I've had girls games where they have both shown they want to play rougher and they're not going to go to blows over it.

ohhh I love the collared shirt, where can I get one?

Lord Byron Collar ...
 

As far as I know, belts are only allowed in my little corner of Connecticut, not the entire state.

And, we do not wear collared shirts in Connecticut, at least not anymore.

Kansas Ref: Try Foot Locker.

I agree with that -- my point was that the level of "carry" in that play happens routinely in games that I'm watching and is not called. (But I think it absolutely would have been called back when I played.)

sweet college mechanics on the blocking call

Thankfully I've never met anyone in real life that cares.

I find the hands on the hips to be a weak looking signal myself.

I have, and, I agree!

SECTION 7 BLOCKING, CHARGING

ART. 2 . . . Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso.

b. If a guard has obtained a legal guarding position, the player with the ball must get his/her head and shoulders past the torso of the defensive player. If contact occurs on the torso of the defensive player, the dribbler is responsible for the contact.

Contact appeared not to happen in the torso; therefore Blocking foul.

This is a Block
 

Angle smangle! Who cares, The contact created by the defender was shoulder to shoulder! You can move laterally or back facing the ball handler. If you do that and contacted in the Torso of the defender it could result in a call against the offence.

When you turn and run and contact the offence you have changed direction and in doing so have not established a new legal guarding position. This a block and should not be passed on! The defender almost fouls down, the offence is re-routed momentarily by the contact.

I have viewed this play, or very similar, hundreds of times in both Men's and Women's College basketball as an observer and supervisor of officials. Each time I see a block not called I enter INC- Incorrect no call!

The game is basketball and blocking is illegal!

You can present discussions of angle, or argue what legal lateral movement is or is not. You can not look at that play and not see defence give up LGP and never establish it again, causing a lot of contact shoulder to shoulder. A blocking foul at every level of the game.

Yes, You can choose to pass - but that is -an INC

Offense, Intentional.

Incorrect...the defender may be turned in any direction while moving after gaining LGP. As long as the defender is not moving towards the opponent at contact and stay in the opponents path, the direction the defender faces is irrelevant.

It is still a block, however, but not for the reasons you state. It is a block because she didn't stay in the path and that meant she needed a new LGP. It has nothing to do with the turn or the direction she was facing.

I would expect a college observer and supervisor to know better.

She can turn(and when she does she gives up LGP)

She can then move laterally!

What she can not do is cause contact shoulder to shoulder from what is now not a LGP as she moves laterally!

Officiating 101. you will agree. We sometimes get caught up in wording when reading what other say.

It is a foul by defence!

You, obviously chose different words and phrasing to describe the some play!

But, good for you! Like most who have posted who have viewed the play it is a foul.

Describe it as you wish, it is foul!

Again, that is incorrect...Officiating 101. This isn't a matter of words. It is just fundamentally wrong and fully inconsistent with the rules defining LGP.

Uhm, no.

Exactly, and it will lead to incorrect calls on other plays.

Getting the right call for the wrong reasons is just getting lucky.

it's still right.