Saddest T I ever gave
 

I had a game last year and was telling the story to another official and she said she would have done it differently. It was a girls varsity game with 2 below average teams.

Team A was home and had a full bench available. Team B only had 6 players. Well it ends up being a real war of attrition it is a 1 point game with 30 seconds to go and Team A trailing calls for a timeout. Team B at this time only has 5 girls due to an injury.

The 2nd horn blows and team B comes out onto the court and sets up in a 2-3 zone. I am inbounding the ball at the mid court line. I become team A several times to come onto the floor and after 10-15 seconds of extended time I blow my whistle place the ball on the floor and start my count.

Team A still isn't rushing onto the floor. A gird from team B starts sprinting over to the ball on the ground and picks the ball up (I couldn't believe she was doing this and wanted to tell her not to, but I didn't want to effect a close game. I called a technical foul on the girl and it was her 5th foul so they were playing a girl short.

Team A makes both free throws and wins by a point as Team B doesn't even foul to extend the game.

I was telling this story to another official and she said she would have just called a delay of game warning for going over the line. I never thought I might be wrong in the technical call because she touched the ball over the out of bounds line, but technically to get there she would have put a body part over the line 1st. I am just playing devils advocate with myself I guess, but wanted to see what you guys thought.


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The NFHS has indicated that while what you say about crossing the line first is true, a single motion in crossing the line and touching the ball is treated as touching the ball.

That said, it is written with the context of being in the throwers hands. In reading the rule, it seems a delay warning might be in order:

Rule 9-2 Penalties:
This rule doesn't actually cover the situation where the ball is on the ground for the resuming play procedure. So, is it really a T if it is not in the hands of the thrower? Perhaps there is a case play that covers this. (I need to get to bed so I'm not going to search for it tonight).

7.5.1 SITUATION B:

Team A does not break the huddle after the second horn for a 60-second time-out. The official puts the ball down at the designated spot and begins the five-second count. The administering official is between four and five on the count when Team B reaches over the boundary and grabs the ball.

RULING: Delay-of-game warning on Team B for reaching across the plane. No Team A member ever possessed the ball for the throw-in; therefore, a technical foul would not be assessed. (9-2 Penalty 3)

Thanks guys.


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Say What?
 

In your comments you stated " (I couldn't believe she was doing this and wanted to tell her not to, but I didn't want to effect a close game." So putting the ball down and starting your count wasn't affecting the game? The potential is there as you discovered by Team B touching the ball or a 5 second violation on team A to do exactly that...effect the game. I agree that a Delay of Game Warning would have been the way to go.

Putting the ball down is the prescribed method of resuming play here. Coaching the defense is not.

Well, there are some of those that think getting them the hell out of the huddle is a better way to go.

Area-specific, and it works for me 99% of the time. It works around here because, for the most part, officials aren't afraid to put it down. I've got no problem with either approach. At some point, you have to stop cajoling and TCOB.

30 seconds left, tight game -- not when I want to pull out the ROP procedure for the first time.

Good point, but I think we all have a point where we feel we had to. Is it 15 seconds? 60 seconds? That answer might change based on several factors.

We gave them plenty of time to come out. Close to 20 seconds so the coach was getting an advantage by not coming on to the court after the minute. In retrospect if something similar happens again I now know that this is a delay of game warning not a T if the ball is not being held. Lesson learned.


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That's why we stress the non-administrating official needs to hang near the benches until the second team comes out. That official needs to be encouraging the team to come out. At some point though, we are putting the ball in play if they resist.

Did someone walk into the huddle on the second horn? Blow a whistle? Clap and yell, "send them out, send them out"?

Or did you stand and wait to see if they were going to come out on their own?

No my partner was all over them trying to get them out on the court. I am quite loud in a small gym. Plenty of warnings were given. I hate being the jerk official and try to give teams every benefit of the doubt within the rules.


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OK, well, then I'd put it down on the floor.

But I've done that only once in the last 3 years, so it would have to be really bad for me to do that. I'm also pretty slow in starting the timeout clock to avoid these kind of things, too, so we just don't have these problems. Could be an area thing.

You can figure out pretty easy usually if the coach is purposely ignoring you or not. If they are,l doing it on purpose, we arent giving them much slack here.

When you put the ball down, follow it up by yelling the color of the team, "Red Ball".

And if an opponent did look like they were running to get the ball I would tell them "it's not your ball."

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Great advice reflecting back I don't think I did that at that time. I do normally when waiting to bring the ball in, but don't think I did it after I blew my whistle and placed the ball.


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Have they been slow coming back onto court on previous TOs? That's when it needs to be addressed; not with 30 secs left in a 1 point game. Anyways, DOG warning is correct call; not a T.

They would push it every time. Coming out well after the horn. I didn't have to place it at all, but the coach is notorious for taking way more time than allotted.


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Including this in your original post would've been helpful.

That's why I like doing it early in the game if it's needed. But if a coach has been just pushing the envelope all game and finally decides not to bother, I have no problem putting the ball down.

I like doing this. If they haven't broken on the 2nd horn, I hit my whistle pretty hard while about 1 foot outside their huddle, then sprint to my position for the inbound. Most teams get that message pretty clear, but if that whistle does not immediately get them breaking the huddle, I'm pointing at my partner with the ball and saying, "Let's go!"

As soon as the first horn goes, we're talking to them here. It works the vast majority of the time. I don't put it down often, about once every two or three seasons, but it's very effective.

I put it down in Christmas tourney final last month. Team ended up calling a time out.

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The first horn announcement, in my opinion, is among the stupidest things we do. If they didn't hear/ignored the horn itself, how likely are they to hear/respond to the call and whistle from the official? I'm not gonna stick my head in the huddle and beg. We should put the ball on the floor more often than we do.

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 etc etc.

I just don't want to be the only guy dying on that sword. If we are supposed to break up soon after first horn and play ball on 2nd, we should enforce it. I just find I'm alone in that fight so I find myself saying let's go let's go a lot

Did someone go pick up the ball and then call timeout, or was the ball sitting on the floor?

I know this may not help a lot, but during the captain/coaches meeting, I tell the kids our state association is focused on sportsmanship, helping each other up, etc. Then I get them out of there. I tell the coaches to stay. We're required to ask coaches if all players are legally equipped, and then I make it a point to tell them first horn ENDS the timeout, we're ready to play on the second horn so make sure they're out there. My hope is that if that's the only thing that I say, it sticks with them. Not sure how much it helps, or if at all (probably not), but I've not had a DOG for coming out of a timeout yet. I've also not been doing this as long as many of you, so I'm sure that plays a huge factor in that as well.

You have already acknowledged that you should have gone with the DOG warning and lesson seems to be learned.

I just wanted to offer my $0.02 on the line of thinking "I didnt want to effect the game." This is a dangerous line of thinking that I have seen cause problems with many officials, probably including myself, that I think we should steer clear of. It leads to overthinking and doing or not doing things that lead to trouble.

Just try to apply the rules intelligently with respect to game situations. As BNR suggested I would have said "its not your ball" or "its blue ball" to the player as I saw her about to grab it. I don't consider that coaching the defense. I consider it good game management.

As far as putting the ball down, I think you did the right thing based on your description and agree that many officials are too lenient overall on getting teams out of timeouts.

I cant remember the last time I used the ROP procedure I think, in part, because the one thing I make sure I tell coaches when we walk over for handshakes before the game is that, "We are going to be ready to play at the 2nd horn, have your team on the court." This is an area where assistant coaches can be helpful too in getting teams out of the huddle.

I'd agree with you if it weren't for the absolute success of the process here. It wasn't my idea, and I don't disagree that it shouldn't be necessary, but getting teams out of a huddle is rarely an issue now. And when it is, there's never any complaining when the ball gets put down. They knew it was coming, and usually I hear a fan behind me, "He's counting!"

It's like anything -- if the coaches don't believe you'll use ROP or that you'll give it to the other team before they're ready, what do they have to lose by ignoring the horns? But once the coaches believe that ROP will actually be used, it becomes unnecessary as they don't want to take a chance.

Has anyone seen a designed ROP play? I could see a coach putting together a plan in the expectation that the other team wouldn't really be ready for an orchestrated act rather than a panic driven throw in . . .

The first horn does not end the timeout.

Being ready to play on the second horn is not the same thing.

Only discussion I had about it this year: The defense was the one late getting out so the other team scored an unmolested layup. The coach is a former official and a friend of mine. He called me over at the end of the quarter.

"You know, coming out of the timeout, somebody is supposed to come to the huddle and notify us."

"Which we did."

(pause) "Oh, I guess I was talking."

"Yep"

"Oh, okay" (sheepish look)

There is an article about this very topic in the current issue of Referee Magazine. Good read

Sitting on floor. Which means the ball was at their disposal.

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correct

So you let this behavior go on all game and then with 30 secs in close game you use ROP procedure. I have a problem with that. :mad: