Inadvertent Whistle - what's the POI?
 

Team A has the ball out of bounds on their front-court baseline. Inbounder A1 holds the ball through the plane where defender B1 legally swipes it out of his hands since it is on the inbounds side of the plane. Partner blows whistle thinking it's a technical foul then comes up to me for help, realizing it was a legal play. We decided to go with the AP arrow, but upon further thinking, I believe we should have returned the ball to Team A for a throw-in since Team A was last in control at the time of the inadvertent whistle. Game ended up a blow-out, so no impact to the call either way. What's the POI in this sitch?

Is there team control in a throw in? Did team control end?

There is team control during a throw in. However, when the ball is knocked out of the thrower ins hands the throw in has ended. There's no team control "inbounds." Using the arrow was correct.

Now, remember, there is a definition of a team control foul. It is a team control foul if the offense fouls during the throwin or after it but before ball is secured. They have said this because they don't want FTs if the offense fouls once the throw in ends and while a scramble is going on. There is no team control "inbounds" once the ball is tipped but they still call it a "team control foul" to reach a desired result.

The definitions are weird but I think I said it correctly.

My original thought was give ball to B on endline since it appears to be a legal steal. But then I read it again and it said A had control when the whistle blew. Now I've confused myselfr

He said ball was swiped. Knocked away. He said A"" was last to have it.presumably he meant because they had it during throw in. I viewed it as ball bouncing around when whistle blew.

There's team control for throwin purposes and team control "inbound." Two things.

Count me in the "AP" crowd (not to be confused with the awesome British comedy "The IT Crowd").

BTW, I've had to explain to people that team control during a throw-in is for foul purposes, and shouldn't be used to try and explain other calls... such as backcourt violations.

I took it to mean that whistle blew when the ball was in A's hands and being swiped by B.

When did Team Control end?

What's the rule reference for these two "versions" of team control? If so, there's a different outcome if the same inadvertent whistle happens during an interrupted dribble. What's the rationale for the different treatment?

duh, I've had a recent head injury. The official blew the whistle for the contact with the ball. Thrower in was still holding it. Throwin not over. Ball goes back to them. No arrow. I'm sorry. I'm the one not reading it right....thinking straight , etc. Sharp as a marble. Sorry all...

The actual sequence of events:

1. Ball held across plane by A1.
2. B1 contacts ball on the inbounds side of the plan, dislodging ball from A1's hands.
3. Ball becomes loose inbounds.
4. Official, sensing something wrong happened, blows whistle inadvertently.

Can you provide rule #s to review those definitions?

So if while the ball is loose, A1 pushes B1, and B is in the bonus, would you shoot FTs?

Well, if the player knocked the ball out of the thrower's hands, the thrower didn't have the ball in his hands when the whistle blew. So isn't the question really whether POI based on the moment the whistle blew (loose ball, AP) or upon what caused the whistle (ball still in hands at moment of erroneously perceived violation, still A's ball)?

Well, this then does look like I had it right. Ball is loose, should be no whistle and he just blows it cause feels something wrong. This does go to arrow.

It isn't as if he blew whistle at time of contact thinking T. Ball was loose then he blows. Arrow is right.

Again, when did team control end?

When B knocked ball out of his hands. That's when the throw in ended. Now, they will still call it a team control foul if A fouks anybody before ball is secured but that is only for foul purposes. It is not really team control when bslk is loose after being touched. There is no team control once ball loose on floor after the throw in ends. Reason why we don't have backcourt violations etc

Support that with a rule reference.

Welp, look at 4-19-7. That is definition of team control foul. The first half of it says team control foul is a foul by team in control. If, there was team control after the throw in ended, when ball tipped, there would be no reason for that section to say more.....BUT it does

"Or by a member of the throw in team from start of throw in until player control secured inbounds. "

The rules recognize that team control "during throw in" ends when the throw in ends. They add the "until ball secured/player control" because they don't want to shoot FTs for offensive fouls during the scramble.

When team control was added to throw in it said team control exists during throwin. We all know throw in ends when ball touched. So when it first came in, a ball could be deflected, then offense foul and we still shoot FTs. Ball tipped, throw in over: ball loose no team in control.

The last part was added because they did not want to shoot FTs for offensive fouls committed after throw in ended but before ball secured.

This is aggravating because you can't get this from reading the rules for the most part I don't think. There were POEs that came with it each time there was a change.

Before reading BC's post a little earlier I would have said "yes", as the throw-in ended when the ball was knocked loose, thus ending the provision of there being team control during a throw-in. And neither team had control of the ball in bounds.

But after reading his post that the provision for team control to exist during a throw-in for foul purposes continues until the other team (aka Team B) gains control, I'll change my answer to "no".

You're stretching a rule that doesn't apply in this situation to make it fit.

The rules for when team control starts and when it ends are clear:

ART. 2

A team is in control of the ball:

a. When a player of the team is in control.

b. While a live ball is being passed among teammates.

c. During an interrupted dribble.

d. When a player of the team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in.

ART. 3

Team control continues until:

a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

b. An opponent secures control.

c. The ball becomes dead.


There is nothing in Article 3 that says that Team Control has ended yet ergo it hasn't ended. The proper thing to do here is to give the ball back to Team A because nothing in the rules has ended Team Control.

As an aside, only by long lost interpretation do we all know that there shouldn't be a back court violation on a throw-in. A plain reading of the rules says it would be a violation.

No. I'm not stretching. The rules aren't written clearly. I'd bet my own house on this one. The POEs were very clear and should have made it to a place where they could be looked up. Like in the rule book.

I remember each change of the rule and each POE. That's my biggest gripe on nfhs. They say things in a POE but don't include it in the rules. Maybe Billy will come along and find them.

What Welpe keeps asking.

There are two types of team control. While the rules are poorly written in this area, the NFHS has made its intentions clear.

Let's call them "Preliminary Team Control" and "Full Team Control". (That isn't what they're called, just what I'm calling them for the sake of discussion).

Preliminary Team Control begins when the thrower has the ball for a throwin.
Full Team Control begins when a player inbounds obtains player control.

Both end in the same way....a try is released, the other team gains control, or the ball becomes dead.

Team Control fouls are defined to happen whenever there is either....no FTs for any foul by the offense from the time they have the throwin until the time when team control is defined to end.

All other issues that depend on team control go by Full Team Control.

So, when the ball became loose on the inadvertent whistle, the throwin had ended but there was no Full Team Control. Since the throwin ended but Full Team Control had not yet been established, the resumption of play would be based on the AP arrow.

This is how we can have team control fouls on a throwin but no backcourt violation until after a player inbounds has player control.

See Camrons response. You can't get this clearly from the rules but the POEs set it out very clearly when rules changes made. Which is obviously why they didn't make it in rules.:o

I know the whole discussion. I'm just amazed that you have to go through such gymnastics to describe it.

In the meantime, I'm likely giving it back to A and putting it in play.

Well, I have had a recent head injury. And I do like to get it right. I wouldn't have to go through gymnastics if they'd put the POEs in rules.

Well, yeah. That's my point. How many officials actually understand all this? a
For every one on this forum there are THOUSANDS who are not. How many associations cover this thoroughly?

No rule coverage, no caseplays....

Preaching to choir. Drives me crazy. Elbow rule really aggravates me. Nothing in rules about it....

The POE from 2014/15 discusses it. There's a better one somewhere. I plugged in "throw in point of emphasis" in Internet to find 2014 one...

How would this play have been ruled in the years prior to the "team control" on a throw in rule change?

rfp:

Based upon what you just wrote. I would say that Team A gets the ball for a non-AP Throw-in. Why? Because B1's slapping the ball ended Team A's AP Throw-in, but did not end Team A's Team Control of the Ball. The inadvertent whistle made the ball Dead while Team A was in control of the ball.

MTD, Sr.

Maybe Billy can pull up the POEs. One is 2014/15. Team control ended when the throw in ended. Ball is now inbounds under no team's control. They added to the definition of team control foul,4-19-7 I think, that it is team control foul if offense commits foul from start of Thtow in until ball is secured. The POEs clearly say this is only for foul purposes. Once ball on court after tip there is no team control for any other reason. BC, 10 seconds etc. Inadvertent whistles... Its not clear in rules but is in POEs. Bsll goes to arrow here.

I disagree with that and it is inconsistent too.

I believe team control, for the purposes of fouls, begins when the team has the ball for a throwin. Nothing the NFHS has said indicates that it ends when the ball is tipped but not secured. They defined team control to start when the player has the ball for a throwin and that it only applied to fouls. They didn't change how team control ended.

I think that is what I said. 4-19-7 says team control "foul" is any foul by offense from beginning of throw in until ball secured. That's an artificial definition to make sure offense doesn't shoot FTs even if ball tipped(throw in ends) and they foul before ball secured. Once the ball is tipped, there really is no longer team control. That's why they added that it is a team control foul until ball secured. It is inconsistent and done simply so FTs aren't shot.

For every other rule, BC, 3 seconds, inadvertent whistles, regular rules apply. No team control inbounds. ball goes arrow. We are on same side of this but may say it differently.

The first change to this said there was team control during a throwin. So no FTs for fouks "during" throw in. They realized when balls were tipped, throwin was over , offense fouls..they were still shooting FTs. So they added the phrase "until ball secured" to eliminate the FTs.

For every other reason in book, when ball is tipped, it's now inbounds and regular rules apply. There is no team control. I think we are 6 of 1 half dozen etc. The POEs do set it out very clearly....if we can find them

Ask And It Will Be Given To You (Matthew 7:7) ...
 

There's also another one that addresses the addition of the language"until ball secured." Just expands definition of team control FOUL to include balls tipped and until secured.

With this in mind, could we not say no team control and at least go to the arrow? B has made a good defensive play. It is unfair (sometimes NFHS rules are) to give the ball back to A.

Team control for throwin and until ball secured applies only to fouls. If a foul isn't involved, once ball is touched inbounds we go to regular team control rules. The ball is loose, no team has established control inbounds. now the whistle blows. Going to the arrow is what is required.

Not according to some in this thread.

Let me know when this makes the rulebook or casebook. Till then, I'm out of this thread.

IW results are often unfair.

Perhaps we can attempt to read a plate full of tea leaves to divine the ruling.

I know what I'm doing for now. If the Fed wishes to fix the rules, I'll adjust.

It should be a lot clearer etc so i know where you are coming from. Here's something I'm thinking..and remembering why i say what I'm saying…in addition to the POE.

How long has the player/team control definition rule 4-12 been in its current form? I'm wondering and thinking it has been in its current form for quite a while. Team control when a player has disposal of ball for throw in has been there because that is the point when the other team is no longer allowed to call a timeout. The other portions of that rule deal with the ball once it is inbounds. I'm thinking that the actual wording in the definition of team control hasn't changed. 4-12.

What has changed, and I'm thinking the only thing that has changed, is the definition of "team control foul" in 4-19-7. They added the language to say it is a team control FOUL from start of throw in until ball secured. That is why i say they just created this artificial rule for fouls only. I don't think the definition of team control in 4-12 itself changed. They just wanted to reach a result of not shooting FTs. We know for 10 seconds, 3 seconds, 5 seconds etc there has to be team control inbounds.

If 4-12 has changed substantially ill have to rethink it. I DO AGREE IT SHOULD BE CLEARER. THE POE could be put in the rule.

Really, they should just fix the sloppy drafting that led to unintended consequences and required interps. They can get rid of this mess by taking TC out of the TI, and changing the def of a TC foul to a foul that occurs either (1) when there is TC, or (2) during throw in (with appropriate definition of when that ends for purposes of TC). Sometimes the instinct (not just here, but in life) is to try to tinker to fix rather than just identify the actual problem and go back and fix it properly.

This, this, this. Yep.

They've been tinkering for years now rather than fixing the mess they made. Now it seems like they're just being stubborn about it and refusing to acknowledge there's a problem.

As we all said when this first came out -- if we can have (by definition) a PC foul when there is no PC, then we can have (by definition) a TC foul when there is no TC.

Bandaid on top of a bandaid on top of gauze over another bandaid and a cast, all topped by ACE and another bandaid ... at this point nothing's touching skin anymore.

Can we sue somebody for that injury? For my headache its caused....Its a cluster. They need to start over....

Game Management
 

I ran this play past a few 'Veteran' officials. A particular official basically said to set aside the rules and use 'Game Management'. I assume he was implying to give the ball back to Team A. :confused:

The sign of a veteran who doesn't want to bother with the rules because they make his life more difficult.

The more years I add to my career, the more I have sympathy for this.....in very limited circumstances.

Saw a real-world IW. HS JV boys (high quality JV), close game, under 2 minutes. Blue driving toward basket. Weak whistle -- some stop, some don't, blue misses runner in lane. Real whistle. Jump signal -- AP favors white. Most parents hopelessly confused with what is happening. Blue coach upset. Referees get together for a surprisingly long time. Blue given ball back. Parent on white team yells "C'mon refs, you can;t just give them the game!" :rolleyes:

It looked to me that at first I though the official was going to pretend the whistle hadn't happened -- but thought better of it. That delay, however, added to the confusion, and may have lead to his jump signal. But they got together and got it right. (Dang it, this forum has me spending way too much time paying attention to what the refs do and how they do it at my son's games . . .still not quite as bad as when I watch soccer games though . . .)

Sid Borgia (I think): "I don't call fouls, I dispense justice."

If it's a blow out go with the decision that gives the ball getting the snot beat out of them.