PC foul without a falling player (Video)
 

What do you think?

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Peace

Not a call Id want to make. I suppose he thought it was going to be worse than it was. Needs patient whistle. It happens...
he did try to sell it and didn't show remorse..but I just can't go with it.

Excellent call!

MTD, Sr.

I would bet your house AND Jr.s someone will have a conversation with him about it. I'd venture to guess he'd tell you he wanted that one back. Yes offense jumped in, yes contact etc. Not enough for foul at that level or even high school imo. I would pass on play like that.

Why is it always assumed that "someone will have a conversation with him" about it? I could make that call...but nobody's coming to tell me how good or bad it was.

Maybe it's different where you are.

It might not be much of a conversation but even in juco here there's tape review etc. of plays. My supervisor would say we'd probably want to pass on that. Refereeing is hard. Stuff happens. I'm not saying he'd get docked by any means. I just don't see enough contact there and I think it would be pointed out on review.

And I don't think falling down is always necessary. Post player pivots and leads with elbows hard. I can see charge. This just isn't a play I'd call player control. Offense isn't jumping in with a lot of force it doesn't seem. Hurts his own ability to score.

I'm ok with that call. It knocked the defender back several feet allowing the shooter a distinctly closer shot than he deserved. That said, I wouldn't be concerned with a no-call either.

Why Didn't You Fall Down ???
 

I had this same exact play last week, called a player control foul, and immediately wished I could dial it back.

It can go either way (call versus no call). Defender was displaced, and the offensive player was able to get a shot off towards the basket. I may also have made this call. I can guarantee (well almost) no one is calling this ref, or any ref, for this call.

In slow mo, on video, I've got a no call. Live ball.....I want to say I would still have a no call but no promises.

You're right that it isnt likely he would get a specific call or email over this play. Idid make it sound like that. I think this play will make that crew's list of plays for review. Just as it made our list here. Jeff pulled it because of it being different. I'm not certain in this league, but im aware that other leagues will send crews plays from a game. Good calls, not good calls etc. Mark thought it was an excellent call. I tend to think it will be on the list of plays for review and might come with a note passing might have been better.

And i like you, am not certain about it...which is why I bet Mark and Jr.s house and not my own....:)

Did he make the right call? He certainly didn't make the wrong one.

I don't think the debate is about whether its an accurate call rather is this one we would no call. My guess would be at that level they (coaches, players, maybe even the officials administrating body?) are expecting that the threshold for contact/advantage be higher than that before a call is made.


On the flip side maybe if more of these were called at all levels we would see less selling of contact to try to get calls . . .

I must be in the ultra minority on this one....but I have a blocking foul on the defender or a no call.

Exactly this. Why do we (officials in general) expect players to fall down in order to call the PC foul?

Do we want players to flop? That's how we get players to flop.

Well, you made me watch it again, but there's no way you should call a blocking foul here, IMO. What do you think the defender did wrong?

Hint, the word "set" cannot be anywhere in your answer.

I know "set" is not a requirement for a defender. After a 2nd...and 3rd look...I stand corrected. The defender is moving laterally therefore isn't in violation.

Great call! This isn't a play where the offensive guy just bounces off a legal defender, he knocked the defender back several feet. So you can't say the defender wasn't disadvantaged here. He took a pretty good shot in the chest and played legal defense. This is a call I would expect to get a hard time from a coach on, but I would hope I wouldn't hear about it from an evaluator that knows the rules.

:) I was a little more snarky than I needed to be.

I'd prefer a no call here and think the official may have anticipated a little and/or not been patient enough with his whistle.

That said, let's dispel the notion that a player needs to fall in order for it to be a PC.

I'm just going with expectations -- it's likely that the mythical evaluator would say that neither player really did anything wrong -- that the contact "wasn't enough."

I feel if this trips my trigger then it means that my filter is going to be set too sensitively the rest of the game.

I think I would have leaned against calling it myself ... but would not ding a guy on an eval for calling it.

Looking at my 2012-2013 case book, there are two cases cited 4.23.2 and 4.23.3 where the case discusses "contact" to the torso, both rulings state player control foul.

I think the argument most are having is, how much contact warrants a player control foul? Why do we let the offense make contact but the minute an offensive player touches with two hands, its hand checking and a foul. I think a lot of us have been conditioned to allow the offense to have the advantage. I don't have a problem with this call, its defensible.

Right.

Problem is, then I'd expect this level of contact/displacement to be called by the entire crew every time. Right?

FIFY.

And, it's because there's a specific rule on it.

If they added a specific rule that "contact by a dribbler to the torso of a defensive player with LGP is an automatic foul" then the play here would be a foul.

I agree with those above who say this could go either way -- and we don't know what else had been happening in this game or the expectations of that area.

I actually like the call. I think it is very close, but I would call that and have called that. I do not need a defender to fall to be OK with the call.

BTW, this led to a T on the coach of the team that had a PC foul called on. But that is just more context, but thought I would show only the play in question first.

Peace

I think I want to see the T. :D

Give me some time and I can post the video.

Peace

Saw a call a Tuesday night. Defender is legal, never moves, offensive player driving by the defense and they hit shoulder to shoulder. Official called a block. I asked myself what the defender did wrong. I know it wasn't technically torso to torso, however I had a hard time with the block here. My opinion was a PC, or a pass.

My first choice here would be a patient whistle and a no-call. Yes, I agree with those who say the defender was disadvantaged by being driven under the basket ... but the offensive player ended up on the ground, so I'm having trouble seeing exactly what advantage he gained from the contact.

All this being said, if you're going to have a whistle here then PC is the right call.

No way this is a blocking foul, the defender did nothing wrong here.

He managed to get a shot off that almost went in and then give his team a rebounding opportunity.

This.

While I also would not have a problem with it either way and in all likelihood would have passed on it, it can be thought of in terms of displacement. If a point guard uses his non-dribbling hand to demonstrably push or bump back a defender 2-3 feet -- or buries a shoulder to push off a defender after a stopped dribble -- to make space for a shot, wouldn't it be PC?

This is one of my favorite questions not only to ask myself, but also to ask a coach when they're begging for a foul on the defense, or even a partner if I'm questioning something they called when we discuss things after the game.

I don't view the jumping in as giving the shooter an advantage. He actually stood a better chance of scoring if he just elevated and shot the ball. Jumping in creates more difficult shot. I'm glad there was no bailout of the offense. Defense did nothing wrong. There's merit to saying more of these should be called. Not so much, imo, to stop flopping but to make the offense pull up and shoot the short jumper.

These days i see so many big players catch ball, great size advantage, and instead of just shooting it they want to get from 5 feet to 2 feet. My mindset is not to bail them out but hasn't gone to calling this play a foul…yet. Like Rich said, would everybody do it? Would need to come from the top.

No call....

I'd suspect that none of my college assignors would want a call on this play...but I suppose a PC call is better than a block because the defense was legal.

Personal confession: That's a hard call for me to make. As described I agree it's a PC, but for whatever reason, I tend to default to block on this. Maybe I see (or have seen) too many defenders shift sideways just as the offense tries to go around (especially with the euro step -- and that means that I have to look for and judge travelling as well) so now I expect it.

position
 

He did not get a good look. Very narrow in lead, looking through the defenders back. To me he guessed when he saw the defence bumped by the ball handler.

Good defence, offence did nothing wrong. This contact is part of the game, play on!

He needed to be in position to get an "open look"!!

let's use some logic
 

Here's the three-part test I would use on this play, with my answers/judgement in parentheses):

1. Did the establish and maintain LGP? (yes)
2. Was either player displaced from their legally-obtained spot on the floor? (yes)
3. Was an advantage gained by one player due to said displacement? (yes)

When you add it up, it's a PC foul... but I could live with a no-call if that's how the game had been officiated to that point.

We're going to start calling you Snarqwells!

You're right. Not being torso-to-torso doesn't make it a block if the defender had LGP. That merely means it is probably not going to be a PC with minimal/marginal actual contact. It is not illegal when a shooter/dribble is almost able to avoid the defender instead of hitting them sqaure.

Hah

It prevents a defender from jumping to challenge the shot.

I think, if I remember, defender made it into the air and challenged shot. Offensive player made it more difficult to score by jumping in. Much tougher shot than just elevating up for the 8 footer or whatever.

I agree with the PC foul call. In my opinion it is a PC foul by the book. Would I be able to make that call in real time? I think it depends on a few factors. 1. If it was the first few minutes of the game or start of the second half then I would call it a PC foul and stick to that standard of play. 2. If it was at a point in the game when the standard of play was established and my crew and I let more contact go then I would not call that a PC foul. No call would be appropriate. If the opposing coach received a "T" for responding to this then I am assuming the game was physical and the coach didn't think the contact was up to par with what was being called.

I wouldn't make any assumptions from the fact that a coach got himself a T.

To answer the original question about this being a suspect or good call then I think some assumptions need to be made. Early in the game or early second half then it is a great call. Calling this later in the game and it contradicts the style of play already established then it is not a good call. It is the correct call but it does not make it good. Not necessarily bad. My assumption was based on the fact that I never had a coach come at me the first couple minutes of the game or start of the second half for making a call. I have only been doing this a few years so maybe I am just lucky.

Ugh, I occasionally work with a couple partners who want to (and do) call this a block, and then explain to the coach that "he has to take it square..." SMH...