Coach counting
 

Would you allow a coach to count out loud? 5 sec inbounding count, backcourt and even 3 seconds. What about an assistant who says he is just coaching his players?

I would not allow it unless it matched my visible count. On a 3-second count if that team's on defense I'm putting a stop to it immediately.

Had a coach in a summer league game who complained about 3-seconds during a time-out. On the immediate next live ball he started counting out loud. I whacked him.

We got into this (not sure if we we talked about here or not) in our association a few years back. We had a pressing varsity coach that would stunt and change defenses based on the shot clock and their counts on back court and inbounds situations. Never was an issue with 3 in the key. Basically as an association we ended up going with they could count if the counting was for them, but the first time a coach or player complained about an inbounds or back court call they were getting zero latitude. In the end I don't think we ever t'd up a kid or coach after we sorted it all out. Their argument was basically that we don't T up teams for counting down the shot clock on offense you can't t them up for counting on defense and for wanting to use the counts to communicate changes to their players.

Before that the coach and team were getting multiple warnings and T's for counting and then T's for arguing about their counting. They then filed an official with our governing body, the sport governing body and the conference. that led to the discussions mentioned above.

Now in almost any other situation I'ld tell the coach/bench to cut it out once then T. If you've got some jack wagon standing there going 2,3,4,5 on in the key calls or screaming 5 5 5 over and over again on an out of bounds we would get one semi polite conversation about stopping and then I'm T ing it up after.

Yup. Same thing for me in a varsity game about 5 years back. I whacked him when he hit 3 -- gave him something else to complain about.

It would be an immediate stop sign if he's doing it because he's figured out I can't count. Then T if he does it again.

I'm not allowing it even if it matches my visible count. Too much room for shenanigans. Then again, you could always just allow it and call the T when the shenanigans ensue.

I don't do stop signs, but I'm definitely shutting it down with a quiet word.

Heard a ref say to a coach in a middle school game: "when you count out loud, I lose track and have to start over."

A funny line, and one that might work at lower level games. Very experienced refs might be able to get away with it in a varsity game if they have an established rapport with the coach.

Newer officials should stay far far away from comments like that, though.

I would stop it immediately. If their count doesn't match my count (which it probably won't), then they are also disadvantaging the other team - potentially making the other team rush because they think they are about to violate. Completely unsportsmanlike.

If the coach is doing it to trigger changes in his defense, he can figure out trigger words to communicate this without counting out loud. Hell, I wouldn't even care if he used the number on the count to trigger (i.e. at his 8 he yells 8 to trigger a trap) - just don't actively count out loud.

Five Seconds: It depends. Is he doing it when a) his team has the ball for a Throw-in, or b) when his opponent has the ball for a Throw-in? Item (a), I could care less. Item (b), he could end up with a TF.

Three Seconds: It depends. Is he doing it when a) his team has the ball in its Frontcourt, or b) when his opponent has the ball in its Frontcourt? Item (a), I could care less. Item (b), he could end up with a TF.

MTD, Sr.

Exactly what MTD said.

Coach Count Von Count ...
 

If the coach looks like this, he can count as often as he likes. We all know that he can't control himself.

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.l...=0&w=300&h=300

I hear what you are saying and do not necessarily disagree. However, if you consider it "completely unsportsmanlike", how do you handle the situation of the crowd counting down a clock prematurely in an effort to influence the opponent? Maybe not the same but that certainly seems "completely unsportsmanlike" also. NBD, it is an extreme analogy and I'm not busting your chops. Just a thought I had.

The crowd can boo me. The coach cannot.

The crowd can gesture at me. The coach cannot.

The crowd can try to disconcert a free throw shooter. The coach cannot.

The crowd can drink beer during a game. The coach cannot.

Etc.

With the exception of drinking beer, which does not occur, technically, I am not seeing differences as far as unsporting conduct in your examples.

The crowd gesturing and disconcerting (term no longer used) are examples of unsporting conduct. Would you not agree?

NFHS Rule 2-8 art. 1

A player cannot display unsporting conduct.
A coach cannot display unsporting conduct.
A substitute cannot display unsporting conduct.
A team attendant cannot display unsporting conduct.
A team follower cannot display unsporting conduct.

Sure, there is a lengthy note, and I would not penalize a crowd for booing. My point is that it is another situation where there is unsporting conduct and it is not penalized by the officials as it is written by rule. Often times it can be too difficult to pinpoint offenders whereby a coach is easier. And we have the ability to penalize a coach at times when bench offenders cannot be singled out. Just not the same with a crowd.

No. While disconcerting is against the rules, it isn't unsporting. If it were, the NFHS penalty for it (even on a player) would be a T. Gesturing may be unsporting depend on the gesture...just as words may or may not be unsporting.

Unsporting contact from a follower would be calling an opponent things that are in any way inappropriate (racist, etc.), coming onto the court to interfere with play or object to a call (just examples, not an exhaustive list), throwing things onto the court, etc.

I get that. Among other things, it really comes down to one's definition of unsporting. But....

If a coach tells a ref very loudly where many can hear it, "you suck!", most refs would consider that unsporting and penalize accordingly. But if a spectator yells the same thing, refs do nothing. How can the same act be penalized at one point but not the other? That is my point as far as something that is by rule an infraction but yet refs, myself included, do not penalize it. Granted, it is a very minor/poor/exaggerated example.

Not looking for a debate, just being very technical/picky about something minor and a bit off topic.

Serenity Prayer
 

The difference is embodied the Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

Although probably not a sports official, Reinhold Niebuhr knew the difference between the acts of coaches and the conduct of spectators. :D

Agree...the threshold for unsporting does indeed vary based on the expectations of the various "participants". Some know better (or at least should) and are accountable for their actions to a greater degree.