Made shot and simultaneous off ball foul
 

Saw this play: A5 is posting up on the block with B5 defending. A1 dribbles just opposite side of the lane and begins a shot attempt. B5 sees the attempt beginning and pushes A5 with arm extended and displaces him a foot or so in order to gain rebounding position. Lead blows the push during the attempt, which A1 makes. Officials huddle to discuss quickly and award the shot attempt plus A ball baseline spot for the foul penalty. Is that correct?


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Team A shoots. While ball is in flight, A fouls B. Shot goes in.

Why would A get the ball out of bounds?

I had the foul switched.

Continuous motion does not apply because this is a Team Control Foul and give the ball to Team B at the nearest spot of the foul.

Peace

I think you're misreading the OP.

4-11

Continuous motion rule.

If there is a foul by the offense (team A) before A1 releases the try the ball becomes dead immediately. No goal. If A1 has released the try before the foul by A2 occurs, ball not dead. basket will count if it goes.

If the defense fouls after A1 begins trying motion the ball does not become dead even if still in A1 hands. He gets to complete the motion/try.

Ok so my confusion then is whether or not the ball is in flight. OP is saying the ball is not in flight yet, correct?

"Lead blows the push during the attempt"

Not "after" the attempt.... "during". The foul on A5 causes the ball to be dead, so the shot never happened.

4-11-3 continuous motion does not apply if a teammate fouls after a player has started a try for goal and before the ball is in flight. The ball becomes dead immediately.

Made shot and simultaneous off ball foul
 

Let me correct a mistake as I did edit it just now: B5 fouls A5 DURING (airborne shooter) A1 shot attempt. Sorry for the confusion.

The defender fouls an offensive player during the offensive players shot attempt. A1 was air


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Bryan,
Why do you think "during the attempt" means a foul by the offense makes the ball dead? If I'm in the Act of shooting and I release the ball it is still "during the attempt." If A2 fouls after release ball is not dead. The OP saying "during attempt" doesn't mean to me that the ball is still in shooters hands. It's not entirely clear which is why I mentioned both parts of 4-11

Okay, good point. I read it as if the ball hadn't left the shooter's hand. But you're right.

Try begins when habitual shooting motion etc starts. It ends when it goes in or certain to be missed etc. So "during" attempt can be while A1 still has ball or after he releases it etc.

OK, well then continuous motion applies as this is a foul on the opponent of the shooting team.

You give the ball back to Team A (as I stated originally) by either bonus FTs or ball out of bounds to Team A.

Peace

Yes, that makes a big difference....if the defense fouls "during the attempt" that's all we need to know. Whether he has released ball or not doesn't matter.

Are you using the term "airborne shooter" correctly?
An airborne shooter is a player which has released the ball on a try for goal and not yet returned to the floor.
It is unclear from your description whether A1 has released the try or not. Of course, the ruling for the defensive foul is the same, as a couple of others have pointed out.

so let's say:

A1 jumps and releases shot;

while A1 is still airborne, B5 pushes A5; official signals foul (team B's 6th);

before A1 returns to the ground, B1 slides his hips into A1's legs and fouls him (team B's 7th);

A1's try is unsuccessful.

After A1's free-throws, does A get the ball nearest to B5's foul because B5's foul was the 6th team foul? Or does A5 shoot 1 & 1 because B has 7 fouls by the time we're dealing with B5's push?

A1 shoots 2. Play on from the results of the second FT.

I had this situation occur in a wreck league game last week, which is played under NFHS rules with a couple modifications for timeouts and timing.

2 Man mechanics. I was trail, and the shot occurred right in front of me, FT line extended. Partner was lead and called the pushing foul against the defense. We counted the score and gave the ball back to team A on the endline.

There was a couple players who thought that either Team B should get the ball, or it should be an "and 1," and the player that got pushed should shoot the FT. We ignored it and played on.

Team B's star player was on the bench at this point with a pulled hamstring(which occurred late in the first half, so he hadn't played at all during the 2nd half). He was one of the most vocal about the "and 1" scenario. We just ignored him and played on.

With about a minute and a half left in the game, and Team A from this situation leading about about 12 points or so, I ended up ejecting 2 players from team B. Team B's star player with the hamstring injury ended up coming back in the game just because of their numbers, and he came over and told me that he had looked up the rule about the earlier play and that we were wrong. I asked him what rulebook. He said NBA. I told him we played High School Rules, and his response was, "Why High School? I would think we should play games according to a ruleset closer to our ages." I Just chuckled and said if he wanted us to play NBA rules, to talk to the league director, and adjust our pay accordingly so we could go learn the NBA rules to use. But the funniest part was when an opposing player in the vicinity said, "The tantrums that your buddies just got thrown out for looked more like the high school variety than anything the NBA would allow." :D:D

I think a quick explanation is better than ignoring it.

Point taken.

And I would say that we did give a brief explanation to the guys on the floor -- didn't totally ignore them. But the guy on the bench yelling from the other end of the floor, I did ignore. :rolleyes:

Saw essentially the same dilemma actually happen in a HS tournament game. White called for a foul (the 6th TF), instead of stopping on the whistle, a white player takes a couple of dribbles and dunks the ball (?!?!? and it was his 4th PF!). Officials confer, and then decide it is a T for dunking a dead ball. (No, I don't know why they had to confer.) As the blue team in-bounded after the T FTs, many fans were yelling for bonus FTs (as the scoreboard was showing 7 fouls).

I believe the referees were correct:m the foul was not the 7th TF, so no bonus FTs were proper. And I believe that is the same answer in your scenario.

Is that because we punish in the order the fouls occurred, so the FTs are last and live (so the TI just gets lost in the shuffle)?

If a foul that warranted FTs happened first and a non-shooting foul occurred before play died, would it be FTs followed by the TI for the common foul?

Plus, foul #6 must have been a TC foul on white, so no FTs anyway. And, if white was already driving when the whistle happened, I doubt I'd T (HTBT).

a) Yes
b) Yes, if the second is before the bonus.

Thanks Bob!

(Twasn't a TC foul -- he got the ball as a result of the foul. From my comfy seat in the stands it seemed pretty clear that he knew the play was dead and just chose to go ahead and dunk the ball because he could. As I recall, he started his two dribbles to the basket after the whistle blew.)