NFHS brawl
 

Situation (not my game, thank goodness) a fight breaks out; players leave the bench; players are not ejected but are "disqualified" because the officials can't prove they were on the court...not sure if players can be "disqualified" without receiving five fouls. Also, not sure if this is correct protocol. My belief is players that left the bench area are ejected and if there is not definite knowledge of them leaving the bench area, then they can't be "disqualified". Please give me your thoughts. Thanks.

There are no players on the bench by definition. Those individuals are team members.
As for being disqualified, why would any official penalize what wasn't observed? How could a team member be DQ'd without at least one official stating that he saw number X on the playing floor during the altercation?

"Ejected" is just an alternative, but somewhat inaccurate, work for disqualified. When people say "ejected", they really mean disqualified. To be DQ'd, you have to charge the player with a foul (either the 5th total foul, 2nd technicals, or a single flagrant). If you don't do that, they can not be DQ'd.

You have to know who to penalize in order to penalize. You can't just pick some. Now, if the see the bench 100% empty, you can, if the book is keeping track, know who was in the game and go from that, but most books don't who is in the game at the moment, just who played in each quarter.

Let me piggy back onto Camron post. Camron is correct. By rule a player is Disqualified. Also by rule, a HC is Disqualified and Ejected, and all other adult personnel are Ejected.

MTD, Sr.

ejected vs. disqualified
 

After reading in the book, I see no difference between the two. In Washington state, however, an ejected player or coach is prohibited from participating in the next contest; a player who is "disqualified" due to 5 fouls, is obviously allowed to play in the next game. I need to get further clarification from our state association. Thanks for the replies.

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't think you read the NFHS Basketball Rules very well.

Please read very caefully: R4-S14-A1; and the NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6.

MTD, Sr.

There are a couple scorekeepers in my area who list the numbers of the starting 5 at the top of each team's page. Then, everytime someone enters the game, their number is added, and the person they replaced is crossed out. Something like this would be VERY HELPFUL if there ever was a bench clearing brawl to be able to tell who came off the bench.

Off the bench = on the court. If the team members merely stand up, I'm not going to charge them with anything. If they get onto the court, now they've left the bench. I'm really not sure how a player leaves the bench without getting onto the court.

Added: And NFHS verbiage typically distinguishes between ejected and DQ'd by noting "ejected" means they have to leave the gym. DQ'd players are only rarely required to leave the gym (note, you'll likely never have that situation), and only with adult supervision.

R4-S14-A1 discusses DQ only; the only reference to ejection I found was in the case book in which it describes ejection from further participation in the current game only. In Washington, when a player/coach is ejected an ejection report is filed and the player or coach must sit the next game.

I learned a long time that if EVERYONE is saying something contrary to what I believe I am probably wrong. 100% of the time this is true. There are differences and DQ's as mentioned above can happen for several reasons.

Your state may simply be using ejected as a term that is most understood when a player/coach gets 2 T's or a Flagrant. Being DQ'd for 5 fouls is NOT the same as being DQ's for 2 T's or a Flagrant. In an ejection the individual is required to leave. We cannot require kids to leave without adult supervision. What the rules state and what states choose to do is up to the individual state and not the NFHS. There is no national policy that a player that receives 2 T's get a 1 game suspension so looking for that in the rule book is an effort in futility.

I'm not sure what it is that I believe that everyone else disagrees. I'm only asking for clarification between ejection vs. DQ as I stated, the rule book as I read it, uses the term DQ as reference to 5 fouls, 2 TF or a flagrant and I was seeking clarification regarding participation in the next contest; I haven't seen anything in the NFHS book about the next game, which leads me to believe that Washington has this in addition to Fed rules. I'm not arguing, just seeking clarification. Thanks.

You aren't going to find it in the Fed rule book. It's not a playing rule. It is essentially an eligibility rule that is imposed by your state. Practically(?) every state has similar rules, but it is not a Fed rule.

NFHS rules are often "enhanced" by states. Most states have additional penalties (suspensions) for any player or coach who is disqualified for any reason other than 5 total fouls. That's a state rule. Any penalties that extend beyond the game in question are strictly state rules, so you won't find them in the rule book.

You'll also notice (if I remember correctly) that the only reference to an ejection in the NFHS book is regarding a coach who must leave the confines of the gym.

And I still want to know why players were DQd who hadn't entered the court? How can they have left the bench if they didn't go on the court?

Piggy-backing with the previous, check with your state for two inevitable things:
1) Their specific penalties regarding eligibility in upcoming games for unsportingly disqualified players (2 T's or a flagrant foul) and ejected adult bench personnel which the NFHS does not stipulate, and
2) Wording in their official documents which blurs the distinction, well-expressed in the NFHS books, between "disqualification" and "ejection".
Our state does both. Quite well. :)

I would add that for officials, the ensuing suspensions are not our business. Suspensions are enforced by the state governing bodies, not game officials.

Adam is correct. The weak link in the chain, however -- at least around here -- has been an occasional neglect of the necessary reporting to the state the official needs to do the night of or morning after the infraction. Some states require a report to the state for even an unsporting technical. Others for two technicals or a flagrant on a player or an adult bench personnel ejection. It's up to us to know what the states in which we work require and to comply with what's expected of us.

SC requires us to fill out an "ejection report" "whenever a player or coach is ejected" (or some vague wording along those lines). It's universally understood that, for basketball, this means a report is required whenever any individual receives two technical fouls, a single flagrant technical or personal foul, or a head coach receives three indirect technical fouls.

It is expected that the official who issues the second 'T' will be the one to submit the report in a garden-variety "ejection."

And I agree with Adam. Anything that happens as a result of the penalties we assess for participants' actions is not our business even though some officials think it is.

James:

R4-S14-A1 defines how a Player is Disqualified. The word "Player" in this definition does not just mean the five (5) players currently participating in the game but also to the Substitutes who are not currently participating in the game. A "player" who is Disqualified cannot continue to participate in the game. Purge the word "ejection" from your vocabulary with respect to "players" who are Disqualified. To say that a "player" has been "ejected" would be incorrect by rule.

The NOTE for the PENALTY for R4-S6 deals with the Head Coach and all other Adult Bench Personnel. By rule the HC is both Disqualified and Ejected and all other Adult Bench Personnel are Ejected.

If you think I am picking nits with regard to these two rules, you would be absolutely correct. Being precise and using correct terminology is what separates the rules experts (game officials) and the players, coaches, game administrators, fans, the press, some members of the rules committee and StateHSAA administrators, and especially howler monkeys (idiot coaches and ignorant talking heads) and fans boys (idiot fans).

As a historian of the rules of the game, a former rules interpreter, and a past member of several IAABO national committees, nothing fries my tuchus more that officials that do not speak the rules correctly.

MTD, Sr.

As a historian of the rules of the game, a former rules interpreter, and a past member of several IAABO national committees, nothing fries my tuchus more that officials that do not speak the rules correctly.

I agree completely and I really appreciate this forum because it allows a complete discussion with like-minded individuals so that I can be better and more correct in my verbiage...thank you

It is expected that the official who issues the second 'T' will be the one to submit the report in a garden-variety "ejection."

And I agree with Adam. Anything that happens as a result of the penalties we assess for participants' actions is not our business even though some officials think it is.

Agreed, it's none of my business nor do I care, I just want to administer correctly if/when it occurs to me...thanks

I have no idea what this means? If you know a player was "tossed" in the previous game (and your state policy is next game suspension), however the governing body has not handed down the suspension you cannot disallow the kid to play. That's the administration's and governing body's job.

There is nothing to "administer" other than telling the coach/kid/game management that they are done for the day and/or have to leave the confines.

That's just my point, we only are concerned with the current game. There's nothing for us to administer with regard to the next game.

Whenever I go to the fancy pants restaurant in town, they always recommend the roasted tuchus. They say fried tuchus is much too tough. :eek:

Either your wanting a conflict or I am doing a terrible job explaining my position. I'll attempt to clarify; I agree, as previous poster suggested, that what happens after/between the next games are none of my business. I started this thread to help me correctly administer if this happens in a game of mine in the future as I feel there were some discrepancies with DQ/ejection in regard to my state. Ejection carries a different penalty as I understand it in Washington, so I was seeking clarity in the difference between DQ/ejection according to fed rules. Thanks again for all of the assistance.

ROFLMTO!! :p

MTD, Sr.

I guarantee you they are using the terms technically incorrect. Most of us say when a player gets 2 T's or a flagrant they are "ejected". We know what it means but the term disqualified is very rarely used when actually speaking among other officials.

And yet you still insist using the word "ejection" when referring to a player/team member who has been "disqualified" because of committing two TFs or committing a single FF.

I officiate H.S. basketball in both Ohio (GO BUCKEYES!!) and Michigan (that school up north, meh), and both the OhioHSAA and the MichiganHSAA use NFHS Basketball Rules. Both the OhioHSAA and the MichiganHSAA have "extra judicial" penalties for players/team members who commit two TFs or a single FF, and guess what word both organizations use: ejection! Which is incorrect per NFHS Rules.

When I have a player who has been disqualified for committing two TFs or a single FF, I use the correct terminology: disqualified! Remember what I said in an earlier comment: StateHSAA administrators are just as ignorant of the rules as coaches are and we, as officials, should not lower our standards by using the incorrect words that StateHSAA administrators use.

MTD, Sr.

deecee:

Read what I have said in previous comments!

MTD, Sr.

You're in the minority then. The most common term used IMO is "done" as in "the player is done for the day" in cases where a coach gets "done" its either "got the boot" or "tossed" as in "I tossed him faster than he could say supercalifragelisticexpialidocious."

I hardly every use the actual terms ejected/disqualified when speaking with officials, or even coaches for that matter. In the end, no one but us care. The only difference is where one has to sit for the remainder of the contest.

And I also "WHACK!!" coaches when telling war stories. But when discussing the rules with non-officials, writing game reports, or discussing the finer points of the rules with other officials I do use correct terminology. And so should you.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. When I have someone whacked it is always business and never personal. I also leave the gun and take the cannoli, ;).

True story. I was once told not to use the words hit and whack because they might be interpreted in a certain cultural way.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

In the early 2000s the State of Ohio was using money that it had received in a lawsuit to provide matching funds to build new schools. The Toledo Public School District's commitment was 30% of the cost of the buildings with the State putting up the other 70% which is a very good deal. TPS put a bond issue on the ballot to raise its share of the monies to replace all 69 schools in the district. I was on the committee that promoted the passage of the bond issue.

Every Friday morning the committee would meet and the district's superintendent would start the meeting with a recap of fund raising listing the different organizations that had donated money and how much they had donated. I would always conclude is report with the reminder that I had to take 15% back to the Mafia in Youngstown, to which everyone would laugh. After one meeting a woman who had never been to a meeting before admonished me for using the word Mafia because everyone knows that is no such thing, :eek:. I calmly reminded the woman of my last name, that I was a native of Youngstown, and that the Mafia did indeed exist, ;).

MTD, Sr.

So, tell us about them Buckeyes again? At least Michigan made a game of their contest on Friday night. DOn't know that we can say as much for the Suckeyes semifinal game. :D

Isn't Youngstown where that guy Jim Traficant was from?

We're the officials on the game college officials?
NCAA rules if players come off the bench when a fight may brake out but do not participate they are by rule ejected with no technical being called.