Disconcerting the FT shooter
 

Last night V4 is shooting 2nd FT at the end of a game.

Entire home team stands and shouts just before she goes into her shooting motion and as she shoots.

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ART. 3

After the ball is placed at the disposal of a free thrower:

a. He/she shall throw within 10 seconds to cause the ball to enter the basket or touch the ring before the free throw ends.

b. The free thrower shall not fake a try, nor shall any player in a marked lane space fake to cause an opponent to violate.

c. No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

The penalty is another shot if missed.

Question for the forum.

Would you consider the bench opponents and penalize this action?

I say yes yet I want you vets opinion please...

Yes. But I would tell them to knock it off before I make this call. I'm not going to be the first varsity official to call a bench disconcerting without at least warning them to knock it off.

Big school varsity game I doubt they would do it. What about sub varsity or small school varsity when these kids IQ doesnt seem as high...??

Teaching moment. Tell them to knock it off.

[QUOTE=BigT;994853]Last night V4 is shooting 2nd FT at the end of a game.

Entire home team stands and shouts just before she goes into her shooting motion and as she shoots.

If its a sudden shout by all of them in a critical moment of the FT and little other noise etc in gym (i.e. shooter can easily hear it as opposed to a lot of other noise in general) that …disconcerts her and the FT misses giver her another FT. If the coach whines about the extra FT tell him the other option is a T for your bench standing etc. And tell him if it happens again, the optional tech won't be optional. say it in a nice way:roll eyes: This is BS basketball that i don't have much patience for...

If she makes the FT anyway, just tell them to knock it off or else. If it happens on the first FT and it was clearly a BS move designed to startle her…and it does, FT misses don't worry about being the first to give another FT.

If they start yelling and cheering as she gets the ball, just making noise through it all I'm not going to do anything about that. (if they are standing i will sit them down. ) Startling…actual disconcertion has to be there.

[QUOTE=BigCat;994858]Thanks BigCat it was quite then out of no where they are shouting/screaming at her... it shocked me.

I've written it many times on this forum. This is not golf. The FT shooter must expect noise. I would ignore it.

IMO, calling something here is looking for trouble that you don't need.

As a side note, I had a coach who would stand next to us while we were practicing FTs and he would scream in our ear. You have to learn to block distractions out.

IMO calling something here is merely enforcing the rules we are supposed to. Hit them with it once and I bet it stops.

Let me ask you this, Suppose the defender in the third slot, just as shooter gets into motion, screams at the shooter miss it or something else. You know he is trying to play BS basketball. Lets say the shooter is startled and air balls it.

Fine, player should block out the world. i agree. Been there done that coached it etc. I would ask you to tell me why you think it's ok not to penalize the player who is intentionally being a jerk? Why wouldn't you when you know he is being an idiot? Why cut him slack? Again, i have very little patience for what i consider BS basketball. This isn't competing its being an idiot. same with the team. now as i said, if theres so much noise that the screaming doesn't add much or shouldn't startle someone then fine, don't penalize.

But, if its in a quieter setting, not many people in gym etc and you allow the player to scream, and there's an obvious disconcertion and you don't address it. You certainly will have problems. ignore it at your own risk. I don't think you will have problems if you penalize people who are acting like idiots.

It should be a T for the bench standing up when they are not allowed to by rule, so they should be happy to only get hit with disconcertion.

While I might not call it the first time, I'm not ignoring it. Too much of that and the NFHS will have to put in the word automatic on it just to get it called properly.

What "trouble" are you referring to?

The only "trouble" I possibly see is having to deal with an unhappy coach, which is hardly something new for officials that have worked a handful... hell... ANY games.

Otherwise, if the call is supported by rule (which has been shown on this thread), I have no problem with a replacement FT or even a tech.

I like this Mr Bad.

This was my thought when I first read the OP.

If the bench doesn't stand, they get the disconcertion call.

No, this isn't golf, but FTs are intended to be shot without disturbance from the opponent. Shut it down, and shut it down fast. Best way to do it is with a delayed violation signal the first time you hear it.

If the shot goes in, advise the coach of the rule and the fact that you'll be enforcing it.

Looking for opportunities to call Ts will open a can of worms you don't want open.

If you think my advice is crap, don't use it. I am speaking from 20+ years (and 1000s of games) of experience. I have watched many officials try to be the person who was going to be an enforcer. None of them has been very successful as an official, while those who learn to manage games have been very successful.

There are lots of ways to manage this situation. Calling a T is one of them...but probably not the best one. Learn to manage people and situations effectively if you want to be successful as an official.

Being scared to call an obvious disconcertion violation is not a recipe for success either.

A replacement FT is all you need. It was an obvious disconcertion. Complete BS basketball. There doesn't need to be a T on the players for standing but as I said earlier, if that coach bit..s, tell him that's his other choice. Let him choose. Now, if you don't give a replacement FT you will likely have to give a T at some point, to the other coach. Not dealing with idiots will screw up your game.

Dealing with people is one thing, but this play happened unexpectedly. Telling them not to do it again isn't doing your job. It cost the other team a FT. Give it back to them and then tell the others not to do it again. Work with people when you can but penalize when necessary.

Call disconcertion, let the coach know you had a choice between that and a technical foul. Go ahead and tell him it would impact his use of the coaching box.

If they do it again, call the T. If you call the T, also call disconcertion so you get a replacement FT if necessary.

I'm really scared to call things...:rolleyes:

I certainly wouldn't say you aren't or wouldn't call this obvious violation because your scared. I have no idea and its not my business….BUT the other potential reasons for not calling it aren't very good either.

I don't have any idea about those who post here (for the most part), but the officials around my area who go looking for things like this to call are the same ones who wonder why they never get selected to go to the state tournament.

The OP isnt something that you go looking for. It finds you. It fits the obvious rule quite nicely.

The same can be said for those who shy away from calling the obvious stuff because they don't want to be noticed (or some other crap). Sure, don't go looking for stuff, but when stuff finds you it needs to be handled.

Most here who have said the T is an option have also said they (we) would go with disconcertion first. Call the disconcertion and it will shut down quickly; advise the coach that it could have just as easily have been a T.

Of course, then he'll instruct his bench to do it while seated.

[QUOTE=BigT;994859]Mr. Stripes,

As you can see the poster said it was quiet...and it shocked him. Obviously an intentional act at critical moment of FT. That's not competing. Again I ask Why would you not penalize it?

If I was coaching I'd first be pissed off at the other coach and then, if you didn't give my kid another FT, you. You would Have had a mess on your hands and would have to give me a T.

Finally, if my kids did something like this on their own to another player, I'd be telling you to give the player another FT....and then I'd berate my players and be the subject of a thread here....😃

Obviously, you do what is expected in your area. This isn't looking for trouble. This is classic disconcertion.

You need to expand your circle....and quit being so impressed with yourself.

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I don't think your advice is crap. I seriously want to know what type of trouble you're referring to, because I can't imagine something happening that I can't handle.

By calling the T you're not doing anything the rules don't back you up on. Angry coaches... angry players... angry fans... what's new? I think we can deal with those things. The only things we couldn't deal with are assignors who are angry with you kicking a call, or doing something not supported by the rules.

Just because something doesn't happen often, doesn't mean it's wrong to do.

BTW, I've given three Ts in the past three years. I avoid giving them whenever possible. And in this situation I'd probably do the same thing. However, others may not feel the same way. Which is fine. Because... like I and others have said... the rule book supports them.

Exactly. Its an obvious violation of not one, but two rules. So just do your job. Try to be preventive and get them to knock it off if you can but if they do it right before a missed FT then blow the whistle and award another shot and tell the coach his bench is going to cost him or her their coaching box if they do that again.

And I don't know how they do things in AZ but here in VA not calling obvious violations like this is a surefire way to NOT work the state tournament, to get better games, or whatever your aspirations may be to advance within this level.

I would not immediately issue the "T' but would definitely rule disconcertion and warn the bench by talking to the head coach. If that doesn't get the message across, the next time they do it, the "T" will.

:rolleyes:

BTW...

Not awarding a replacement FT, or not giving a tech foul, could end up causing a lot more "trouble" than not doing either of those things.

I imagine assignors would have a much bigger problem with you not calling something laid out in the rule book than calling something that may not have been the popular choice.

IMHO ignoring is not the same as managing. I'm not sure if that's how you're advocating handling this, but it seems like it. This must be dealt with in order to manage the game and that will require someone being the enforcer that you deride.

I am joining this thread late, but I would recommend that we all take a look at this thread from 2003: https://forum.officiating.com/basket...day-night.html

MTD, Sr.

I read some of it Mark. I think the word "opponent" is broad enough to say I can call disconcertion on bench personnel. I do not believe opponent is limited to players on the floor. Meriam Webster says it is a person, team or group competing against another....

Yes, there are some case plays where opponent means player on court. Rule 3 talks generally about equipment and uses opponent in that to be anybody on team. Possession arrow is pointed at "opponents basket." That is a broad general use.

Now, when this happens at the bench it probably is more like unsportsmanlike. It depends on the level. Younger kids may not know it isn't right etc.

Anyway, I choose to use a broader definition of opponent. I can call disconcertion on the OPs play if I want to. I could also call the unsportsmanlike T.
However, I don't think an unsportsmanlike T on the first time this happens will make my game better. I'll give another FT and make it known that it better not happen again.

I like having more options.

Would you repeat that question?:

V4 is shooting 2nd FT at the end of a game.

Entire home team (1) stands and (2) shouts (3) just before V4 goes into her shooting motion, (4) and, as she shoots.

Ruling:

a. Tell them to knock it off before making the call.
b. Ignore it.
c. Calling something would be looking for trouble.
d. Do not call it the first time.
e. Advise the coach of the rule.
f. Looking for opportunities to call T’s will open a can of worms.
g. A replacement FT is all you need.
h. There doesn’t need to be a T on the players for standing.
i. Officials looking for things like this to call never get selected to go to the
state tournament.
j. Assess a team technical to Home Team and disconcertion violation if
needed.

I know I would make them sit down. If I was trail I'd be sitting them down. If they start making noise before the Free thrower goes in motion and continues making noise I'm likely not calling disconcertion or anything else. The OP was silence and then screaming at critical moment. This is different. I'd have to hear it but I wouldn't say kids can't make noise. I expect a shooter to get through that.

Disconcertion By The Opponents ...
 

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy.

This: Disconcertion by the opponents (delayed signal) and a replacement free throw if it misses. I wouldn't have to think twice about this, and I have the rules and interpretations to back me up.

No opponent shall disconcert the free thrower.

The official must judge whether the act distracts the free thrower. If the official judges the act in to be disconcerting, it shall be penalized. The free thrower is entitled to protection from being distracted. It is the opponent’s responsibility to avoid disconcerting the free thrower. (9-1-3c Penalty 2)

If the FT was critical to this team then I'm calling a violation. If it isn't I'm going to let the bench know the next time it will be a violation.

Most likely I'm sitting them before the FT is even shot. As an ex player if this throws your FT shot off you're not concentrating and/or a good FT shooter in the first place.

In no way am I dropping this T as a first recourse. Coaches, even some partners (although they won't tell me to my face), already ding me enough for being a "tighter" official on enforcing the rules and I know that costs me some games. But it's part of our rating process. Coaches and officials determine our ratings.

Agree.

Good citation, Billy. Here you have a situation where an entire bench stands and shouts at an opponent while she's attempting what apparently is a critical free throw. (Why would they do it if it weren't critical?) You have rules backing there as well. 10-5-1d and 10-5-4.

What is your definition of when the FT begins? The rule book says when ball is at disposal. Your answer is irrelevant because before the ball was at V4's disposal the opponents weren't standing and shouting. If you mean after the ball was at V4's disposal but just before V4 starts the act of shooting (which is when the home bench started their antics), are you saying you would stop play, have V4 return the ball to the Lead while you run back into the visitors back court to tell the home team bench to sit down and to remind them if it happens again the rule will be enforced? All this during an apparently critical 2nd free throw? (why would home bench be doing this if it weren't?) If I am the visitors head coach I would be furious for multiple reasons. Worms, anyone? A fresh can has just been opened.

If the kids are just standing and the ball is at the disposal of the FT shooter I'm not stopping play to have them sit. If they then disconcert see my above comment. Sometimes you just have to officiate/manage the situation as it happens and there is no guide that covers all the what ifs. IMO its this that differentiates the good officials from the great ones. The ones that constantly get those amazing games because they have proven they can handle complex situations and can think on their feet.