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so cal lurker Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:15pm

HS shot clock
 
(taking the suggestion to start a new thread -- this is boys HS in CA, which uses a short clock)

Another scenario from a tournament game.

White on offense, shot hits rim, offensive rebound, play continues. Wild shot thrown up as shot clock expires. Shot hits backboard only and is grabbed by blue at about the same moment the whistle blows for the violation since it didn't hit the rim. White coach becomes unglued, as he (correctly) argues that the shot clock was not reset. Officials confer, put 17 seconds back on the shot clock and give the ball back to white. Blue coach now objects - arguing that BLUE [fixing as Bob pointed out] got the rebound, and the ball can't possibly go back to white after the missed shot. Officials again confer, signal a jump, and go to the arrow, which gives the ball to blue.

So:
1. obviously the big problem is the shot clock operator fell asleep, but should the officials have noticed the shot clock did not return in the first place and have avoided this? (2 man team)
2. If the coach noticed the shot clock hadn't reset and called a TO before it expired, would he get it back, or would he still get charged as it was not a CE?
3. since the violation occurred as soon as the shot obviously failed to hit the rim, I gather the officials were ultimately correct to go to the arrow, even though white grabbed the rebound as the whistles blew?

(While white got somewhat rooked on this play, they got it back with another table error: the table failed to flip the arrow at the start of the next quarter, so white got the ball on successive trips to the arrow. After that, the officials were very aware of watching the arrow.)

bob jenkins Mon Dec 12, 2016 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 994680)
(taking the suggestion to start a new thread -- this is boys HS in CA, which uses a short clock)

Another scenario from a tournament game.

White on offense, shot hits rim, offensive rebound, play continues. Wild shot thrown up as shot clock expires. Shot hits backboard only and is grabbed by blue at about the same moment the whistle blows for the violation since it didn't hit the rim. White coach becomes unglued, as he (correctly) argues that the shot clock was not reset. Officials confer, put 17 seconds back on the shot clock and give the ball back to white. Blue coach now objects - arguing that white got the rebound, and the ball can't possibly go back to white after the missed shot. Officials again confer, signal a jump, and go to the arrow, which gives the ball to blue.

So:
1. obviously the big problem is the shot clock operator fell asleep, but should the officials have noticed the shot clock did not return in the first place and have avoided this? (2 man team)
2. If the coach noticed the shot clock hadn't reset and called a TO before it expired, would he get it back, or would he still get charged as it was not a CE?
3. since the violation occurred as soon as the shot obviously failed to hit the rim, I gather the officials were ultimately correct to go to the arrow, even though white grabbed the rebound as the whistles blew?

(While white got somewhat rooked on this play, they got it back with another table error: the table failed to flip the arrow at the start of the next quarter, so white got the ball on successive trips to the arrow. After that, the officials were very aware of watching the arrow.)

1) I think that's a typo; should be "blue"

2) The rest depends on the specific shot clock rules in place.

Raymond Mon Dec 12, 2016 02:37pm

I can't answer until it is confirmed who got the rebound.

deecee Mon Dec 12, 2016 06:44pm

This is not a correctable error, but it is a timing issue that can be fixed. Blue should have retained possession. If the coach realized the shot clock wasn't reset and called a TO to fix the issue, and it turned out it was correct, I would fix the issue and not charge him the TO since as a crew we messed up. He wouldn't get a TO so to speak and once the issue was resolved we would play ball or he COULD use a TO if he wanted the time with his team.

The officials should not have gone to the arrow since a team DID have possession. Unless everyone stopped playing and a kid from blue just picked up the ball going to arrow should not have been an option IMO.

The ideal thing would have been the officials realized the mistake, blow the play dead. Fix the shot clock and put the ball in play at the POI.

Nevadaref Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:37am

CA has a document with several play rulings for its shot clock. I'll consult it for this specific timing error and get back to you.

Welpe Tue Dec 13, 2016 02:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 994744)
CA has a document with several play rulings for its shot clock. I'll consult it for this specific timing error and get back to you.

I checked the CBOA Mechanics Illustrated and I only see a case for if the operator erroneously resets the shot clock.

Can somebody answer what should happen in NCAA-M or -W in this situation? CA's shot clock rules were created to mimic NCAA shot clock rules with one exception. Barring a CA interpretation, I think we should do what is done in NCAA.

deecee Tue Dec 13, 2016 08:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 994748)
I checked the CBOA Mechanics Illustrated and I only see a case for if the operator erroneously resets the shot clock.

Can somebody answer what should happen in NCAA-M or -W in this situation? CA's shot clock rules were created to mimic NCAA shot clock rules with one exception. Barring a CA interpretation, I think we should do what is done in NCAA.

I told you what should happen in NCAA-M. The issue was a non-reset that was discovered with a team having clear possession of the ball. The only reason this gets exacerbated is because the shot clock horn went off. This doesn't change anything. The only reason you would go to the AP arrow is if the players stopped playing and there wasn't any team control when the issue was discovered. The officials have to have definite knowledge that the ball did in fact hit the rim on the first attempt otherwise its a violation.

In either case blue ball.

so cal lurker Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:19am

thanks all.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 994748)
CA's shot clock rules were created to mimic NCAA shot clock rules with one exception.

What is the one exception?

Welpe Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 994752)
I told you what should happen in NCAA-M.

Thanks.

So cal lurker, a defensive violation such as a kicked ball results in a full reset in CA. As I understand it, that's not the case in NCAA-M.

swkansasref33 Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by so cal lurker (Post 994680)
(taking the suggestion to start a new thread -- this is boys HS in CA, which uses a short clock)

Another scenario from a tournament game.

White on offense, shot hits rim, offensive rebound, play continues. Wild shot thrown up as shot clock expires. Shot hits backboard only and is grabbed by blue at about the same moment the whistle blows for the violation since it didn't hit the rim. White coach becomes unglued, as he (correctly) argues that the shot clock was not reset. Officials confer, put 17 seconds back on the shot clock and give the ball back to white. Blue coach now objects - arguing that BLUE [fixing as Bob pointed out] got the rebound, and the ball can't possibly go back to white after the missed shot. Officials again confer, signal a jump, and go to the arrow, which gives the ball to blue.

So:
1. obviously the big problem is the shot clock operator fell asleep, but should the officials have noticed the shot clock did not return in the first place and have avoided this? (2 man team)
2. If the coach noticed the shot clock hadn't reset and called a TO before it expired, would he get it back, or would he still get charged as it was not a CE?
3. since the violation occurred as soon as the shot obviously failed to hit the rim, I gather the officials were ultimately correct to go to the arrow, even though white grabbed the rebound as the whistles blew?

(While white got somewhat rooked on this play, they got it back with another table error: the table failed to flip the arrow at the start of the next quarter, so white got the ball on successive trips to the arrow. After that, the officials were very aware of watching the arrow.)

1. The officials should've recognized that the shotclock did not reset, stopped the game and reset the shot clock, giving it back to white at POI.

2. I would not give the coach the timeout back, as it is not a CE.

3. I believe that going to the arrow is correct in this situation.

deecee Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 994766)
1. The officials should've recognized that the shotclock did not reset, stopped the game and reset the shot clock, giving it back to white at POI.

2. I would not give the coach the timeout back, as it is not a CE.

3. I believe that going to the arrow is correct in this situation.

1. Ideal
2. The coach, if getting the officials attention for an official screw up, I would not charge a TO to fix an issue. I would charge a TO if the coach wanted to spend time with his players beyond the time it took the crew to fix the problem.
3. Incorrect. There was team/player control at the point of interruption. The shot clock horn does not make the ball dead.

Raymond Tue Dec 13, 2016 01:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welpe (Post 994765)
Thanks.

So cal lurker, a defensive violation such as a kicked ball results in a full reset in CA. As I understand it, that's not the case in NCAA-M.

Yep, under 15 goes to 15.

swkansasref33 Tue Dec 13, 2016 02:43pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 994767)
1. Ideal
2. The coach, if getting the officials attention for an official screw up, I would not charge a TO to fix an issue. I would charge a TO if the coach wanted to spend time with his players beyond the time it took the crew to fix the problem.
3. Incorrect. There was team/player control at the point of interruption. The shot clock horn does not make the ball dead.

Deecee, his post said that the team "grabbed the rebound as the whistle blew". I interpreted it as meaning the whistle preceded blue establishing team control, which is why I agreed with going to the arrow. If that were to be the case, would the arrow be correct in your opinion?

deecee Tue Dec 13, 2016 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by swkansasref33 (Post 994774)
Deecee, his post said that the team "grabbed the rebound as the whistle blew". I interpreted it as meaning the whistle preceded blue establishing team control, which is why I agreed with going to the arrow. If that were to be the case, would the arrow be correct in your opinion?

If it were close enough and it was clear and uncontested recovery I'm not taking the possession away. Also with a shot clock if the horn sounds at the same time as the defense gets the rebound I'm not blowing the play dead anyway. Play on.

It's most likely what happened, is the coach is screaming for a reset, the rebound comes off the backboard, the horn sounds, the kid gets the rebound. All this is happening at the same time and the official could have had a "oh @#$" moment and blew the whistle for a SC violation. Most officials, myself included, would probably get sucked into that one.

ilyazhito Tue Mar 27, 2018 09:42am

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 994775)
If it were close enough and it was clear and uncontested recovery I'm not taking the possession away. Also with a shot clock if the horn sounds at the same time as the defense gets the rebound I'm not blowing the play dead anyway. Play on.

It's most likely what happened, is the coach is screaming for a reset, the rebound comes off the backboard, the horn sounds, the kid gets the rebound. All this is happening at the same time and the official could have had a "oh @#$" moment and blew the whistle for a SC violation. Most officials, myself included, would probably get sucked into that one.

I would agree that that situation could be confusing. However, the question is did the ball hit the rim? If it did, there is no possibility of a violation, no matter who grabs it. If the horn goes off, and there is NO SHOT, kill immediately. However, if the horn goes off and there is a shot, HOLD the whistle until it is clear what happens (shot scores, ball hits the rim, ball does not hit the rim, but opponents pick up the ball, or the same team picks up the ball without it hitting the rim). After you know what has happened, kill play if needed, to avoid an IAW/shot clock reset error.

IMHO, why does CA still have a 35-second shot clock? NCAA men changed the shot clock to 30 in 2015, so there have already been 3 seasons with both women and men playing with 30 seconds. I also don't see any rhyme or reason for girls to play with no 10-second count, because NCAA-W added a 10-second count, tied to the shot clock when the men went to 30 seconds.


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