Removal of Spectator

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Let me see if I can be absolutely clear: YOU NEVER, EVER FORFEIT A GAME. Not for ANY reason. You SUSPEND the game and turn it over to someone else. I don't care if the rule says, "shall forfeit." .

DO YOUR JOB. If a coach doesn't leave after second T...FORFEIT the game like the rule says. If you're afraid to make the decision you should probably find something else to do. "Turn it over to someone else" isn't what we do.

The "shall forfeit" language applies to team conduct. I've never had to do it but I can tell you if a coach would ever get a second T and refuse to leave I would tell the scorer the game is a forfeit.

Fan behavior doesn't fall under the shall forfeit language. Like others have said, I will look to AD or whomever to remove the person. If police are present and are involved I will play on. Police can forcibly remove someone. If there's no police, most underclass games, wait to resume game until person leaves. If he won't leave, you leave and write the report.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

DO YOUR JOB. If a coach doesn't leave after second T...FORFEIT the game like the rule says.

Help me out here, which rule?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by adam

help me out here, which rule?

5-4-1. I was responding to a poster's comment that we should "never, ever, forfeit a game even when the rule says 'shall' forfeit." This section deals with players, coaches, team personnel acting like idiots. Getting Ts and refusing to comply with the penalty. Rule says "shall forfeit" here. If a coach acts so badly that we think he needs 2 Ts and ejected then, if he refuses to leave, we should tell the scorer on the way out the game's a forfeit, the score is….

Personally, if someone says they aren't comfortable doing that id wonder if the second T was warranted. If it is/was and the coach continues to act like an idiot and won't leave, i don't know why we wouldn't follow the rule. I think officials need to be aware that tossing a coach is a big deal and you need to be sure its necessary. Then beware of what to do if he won't leave. This is certainly an extreme example but i just didn't agree with the "never ever" language.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

5-4-1. I was responding to a poster's comment that we should "never, ever, forfeit a game even when the rule says 'shall' forfeit." This section deals with players, coaches, team personnel acting like idiots. Getting Ts and refusing to comply with the penalty. Rule says "shall forfeit" here. If a coach acts so badly that we think he needs 2 Ts and ejected then, if he refuses to leave, we should tell the scorer on the way out the game's a forfeit, the score is….

Personally, if someone says they aren't comfortable doing that id wonder if the second T was warranted. If it is/was and the coach continues to act like an idiot and won't leave, i don't know why we wouldn't follow the rule. I think officials need to be aware that tossing a coach is a big deal and you need to be sure its necessary. Then beware of what to do if he won't leave. This is certainly an extreme example but i just didn't agree with the "never ever" language.

I'm curious, because I left my book at home again and yesterday didn't afford me time to actually look at it for the 60 minutes I was home before I went to bed.
Is this the "travesty" portion? Your comment above implied that the rule stated specifically that the penalty for a coach refusing to leave is a forfeit. While most would certainly consider that a qualifying event, I don't see anything in the written rule that actually requires this action. A suspension isn't a refusal to follow the rule, in other words.
For the record, I have threatened a forfeit to get a coach off the court, and I'd do it again in that situation. His team was winning, big, and he was all about winning.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

I'm curious, because I left my book at home again and yesterday didn't afford me time to actually look at it for the 60 minutes I was home before I went to bed.
Is this the "travesty" portion? Your comment above implied that the rule stated specifically that the penalty for a coach refusing to leave is a forfeit. While most would certainly consider that a qualifying event, I don't see anything in the written rule that actually requires this action. A suspension isn't a refusal to follow the rule, in other words.
For the record, I have threatened a forfeit to get a coach off the court, and I'd do it again in that situation. His team was winning, big, and he was all about winning.

It is in the travesty section and it does say shall forfeit if team refuses to play. (Coach not leaving fits that). Also says we may forfeit if coach fails to comply with technical foul penalty. Fits that too. Now, if i give a second T I would give the coach some time to leave. How much? Have to be in the moment to know. I would probably say to an assistant. I'll give you a minute or whatever to get him out of here. If not, game is a forfeit.
I wouldnt give second T, coach lingers and then say forfeit. I dont want that and would do everything i can to avoid doing it. But....if he is still being an idiot and just wont leave, to the point that you and i are going to leave, that's a travesty, he's not allowing his team to play....And at that point, after hes made it a tremendous travesty, i dont know why i would worry about saying the word forfeit on my way out. He earned it.

I just dont agree that we should "never, ever," declare a forfeit. I've never had to do it but if somebody acts that bad, to the point we cant play and im leaving, i will say it on my way out. Thx

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I just dont agree that we should "never, ever," declare a forfeit. I've never had to do it but if somebody acts that bad, to the point we cant play and im leaving, i will say it on my way out. Thx

Now this, I agree with. I think we were getting too deep into the weeds to find disagreement.

Okay, when I say "we were" I really meant "I was."

I'll also add that there's really nothing stopping a governing body from overriding my use of the word "forfeit" and finishing the game from that point.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

Now this, I agree with. I think we were getting too deep into the weeds to find disagreement.

Okay, when I say "we were" I really meant "I was."

I'll also add that there's really nothing stopping a governing body from overriding my use of the word "forfeit" and finishing the game from that point.

You're right the way i said it made it seem the rule said specifically, he fails to leave, forfeit. It's not that clear. And I agree, a governing body can change what i do if they want. If a game gets so bad that we threaten a forfeit if a coach doesnt do x, then, if he doesnt, i am going to say forfeit. I wont make the threat if im not prepared to follow through with it.

I dont think we disagree much. I just didnt agree with the fellow who said never ever forfeit the game, even if the rule said shall. If it gets this bad, i think we should to show we're not afraid to do it if someone's that big of an idiot. As you said, the governing body can do what they want.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

It is in the travesty section ...

5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a game if
any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any
technical-foul penalty, or repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions or other
acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to which the game is forfeited
is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall stand. If this team is not ahead,
the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its favor.

[Adam]

Refusing to play is a specific situation that doesn't apply to the coach being instructed to leave. I've been part of that situation as a player, and it's different. There's a reason it says "shall" in this part.

Now, the sentence Billy puts in red is the important one here, and it's the one I would use. I'm going to give the AC every chance to get the coach off the court, but if push comes to shove, we can't be afraid to pull the trigger. This says "may" because there are other tools we can usually use to get there. If an official "suspends" instead of "forfeits," though, I'm pretty sure any sanctioned governing body is going to declare this a forfeit and not worry about the semantics.