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-   -   Removal of Spectator (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/101915-removal-spectator.html)

packersowner Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:12am

I one time had a partner end a game halfway through the 4th quarter. Walked off the court sputtering something leaving me to clean up the pieces. Worst part was he had to stick around for the Varsity game. I was never so happy to leave. AD asked him what happens and he said, "tired of the fans bitching and the game was turning into a rugby match."

Some days you're happy to be home by 6.

Mark Padgett Thu Dec 08, 2016 08:53pm

OK - this isn't a "Dave-ism", but it's kind of close. Some of you may remember a former poster to this site named Rainmaker. Quite a few years ago, we were working a boys MS rec game. At halftime, she went over to the scorer's table. Some jerk stood up a few rows behind the table, held his glasses out in front of him and said to her, "Hey ref. You want to borrow my glasses?" She gave him our standard response, "Why? They're not doing you any good." The other parents cracked up and were laughing really loud. The jerk got PO'd, put up his fist and said to her, "You want to come up here and say that?" It was as if he was so mad that he wanted to hit her! The place went quiet. She looked at him again and said, "Why? Is your hearing bad too?" Again, the gym cracked up. The guy was so taken aback that he left!

I asked her where she got that second reply. She said it just popped into her head. She also asked me to walk her to her car after the game, just in case. I did, and the guy was nowhere to be seen.

Adam Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:19pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994321)
DO YOUR JOB. If a coach doesn't leave after second T...FORFEIT the game like the rule says.

Help me out here, which rule?

BigCat Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by adam (Post 994515)
help me out here, which rule?

5-4-1. I was responding to a poster's comment that we should "never, ever, forfeit a game even when the rule says 'shall' forfeit." This section deals with players, coaches, team personnel acting like idiots. Getting Ts and refusing to comply with the penalty. Rule says "shall forfeit" here. If a coach acts so badly that we think he needs 2 Ts and ejected then, if he refuses to leave, we should tell the scorer on the way out the game's a forfeit, the score is….

Personally, if someone says they aren't comfortable doing that id wonder if the second T was warranted. If it is/was and the coach continues to act like an idiot and won't leave, i don't know why we wouldn't follow the rule. I think officials need to be aware that tossing a coach is a big deal and you need to be sure its necessary. Then beware of what to do if he won't leave. This is certainly an extreme example but i just didn't agree with the "never ever" language.

Bad Zebra Sat Dec 10, 2016 09:11am

Here in the Sunshine State, we have a slightly different protocol that prevents the newbie, clueless AD issue. All FHSAA sanctioned athletic events must have an "Administrator on duty". Sometimes it's the AD but usually a grisled old asst. principal or teacher looking to make a few extra bucks. I think they get paid a daily fee for serving, whereas the AD just gets his/her annual compensation so they generally don't like the additional responsibility of crowd control. Part of our state mandated pre-game duties is to find the AOD upon arrival. Part of their duties is to greet officials, show them to the dressing area, and resolve any crowd issues upon request. They are in charge of the entire facility during the contest outside the lines of the court. Often, during basketball season, there are soccer games taking place at the same time so they usually shuttle back and forth, but they are always present. Seems to work pretty well. Maybe I'm just lucky but I've never seen one shirk their responsibility.

Adam Sat Dec 10, 2016 09:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994517)
5-4-1. I was responding to a poster's comment that we should "never, ever, forfeit a game even when the rule says 'shall' forfeit." This section deals with players, coaches, team personnel acting like idiots. Getting Ts and refusing to comply with the penalty. Rule says "shall forfeit" here. If a coach acts so badly that we think he needs 2 Ts and ejected then, if he refuses to leave, we should tell the scorer on the way out the game's a forfeit, the score is….

Personally, if someone says they aren't comfortable doing that id wonder if the second T was warranted. If it is/was and the coach continues to act like an idiot and won't leave, i don't know why we wouldn't follow the rule. I think officials need to be aware that tossing a coach is a big deal and you need to be sure its necessary. Then beware of what to do if he won't leave. This is certainly an extreme example but i just didn't agree with the "never ever" language.

I'm curious, because I left my book at home again and yesterday didn't afford me time to actually look at it for the 60 minutes I was home before I went to bed.
Is this the "travesty" portion? Your comment above implied that the rule stated specifically that the penalty for a coach refusing to leave is a forfeit. While most would certainly consider that a qualifying event, I don't see anything in the written rule that actually requires this action. A suspension isn't a refusal to follow the rule, in other words.
For the record, I have threatened a forfeit to get a coach off the court, and I'd do it again in that situation. His team was winning, big, and he was all about winning.

BigCat Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994560)
I'm curious, because I left my book at home again and yesterday didn't afford me time to actually look at it for the 60 minutes I was home before I went to bed.
Is this the "travesty" portion? Your comment above implied that the rule stated specifically that the penalty for a coach refusing to leave is a forfeit. While most would certainly consider that a qualifying event, I don't see anything in the written rule that actually requires this action. A suspension isn't a refusal to follow the rule, in other words.
For the record, I have threatened a forfeit to get a coach off the court, and I'd do it again in that situation. His team was winning, big, and he was all about winning.

It is in the travesty section and it does say shall forfeit if team refuses to play. (Coach not leaving fits that). Also says we may forfeit if coach fails to comply with technical foul penalty. Fits that too. Now, if i give a second T I would give the coach some time to leave. How much? Have to be in the moment to know. I would probably say to an assistant. I'll give you a minute or whatever to get him out of here. If not, game is a forfeit.
I wouldnt give second T, coach lingers and then say forfeit. I dont want that and would do everything i can to avoid doing it. But....if he is still being an idiot and just wont leave, to the point that you and i are going to leave, that's a travesty, he's not allowing his team to play....And at that point, after hes made it a tremendous travesty, i dont know why i would worry about saying the word forfeit on my way out. He earned it.

I just dont agree that we should "never, ever," declare a forfeit. I've never had to do it but if somebody acts that bad, to the point we cant play and im leaving, i will say it on my way out. Thx

Adam Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994562)
I just dont agree that we should "never, ever," declare a forfeit. I've never had to do it but if somebody acts that bad, to the point we cant play and im leaving, i will say it on my way out. Thx

Now this, I agree with. I think we were getting too deep into the weeds to find disagreement.

Okay, when I say "we were" I really meant "I was."

I'll also add that there's really nothing stopping a governing body from overriding my use of the word "forfeit" and finishing the game from that point.

BigCat Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994563)
Now this, I agree with. I think we were getting too deep into the weeds to find disagreement.

Okay, when I say "we were" I really meant "I was."

I'll also add that there's really nothing stopping a governing body from overriding my use of the word "forfeit" and finishing the game from that point.

You're right the way i said it made it seem the rule said specifically, he fails to leave, forfeit. It's not that clear. And I agree, a governing body can change what i do if they want. If a game gets so bad that we threaten a forfeit if a coach doesnt do x, then, if he doesnt, i am going to say forfeit. I wont make the threat if im not prepared to follow through with it.

I dont think we disagree much. I just didnt agree with the fellow who said never ever forfeit the game, even if the rule said shall. If it gets this bad, i think we should to show we're not afraid to do it if someone's that big of an idiot. As you said, the governing body can do what they want.

BillyMac Sat Dec 10, 2016 01:27pm

Let's Go To The Videotape ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994562)
It is in the travesty section ...


5-4-1: The referee shall forfeit the game if a team refuses to play after
being instructed to do so by any official. The referee may also forfeit a game if
any player, team member, bench personnel or coach fails to comply with any
technical-foul penalty,
or repeatedly commits technical-foul infractions or other
acts which make a travesty of the game. If the team to which the game is forfeited
is ahead, the score at the time of forfeiture shall stand. If this team is not ahead,
the score shall be recorded as 2-0 in its favor.

Adam Sat Dec 10, 2016 04:47pm

Refusing to play is a specific situation that doesn't apply to the coach being instructed to leave. I've been part of that situation as a player, and it's different. There's a reason it says "shall" in this part.

Now, the sentence Billy puts in red is the important one here, and it's the one I would use. I'm going to give the AC every chance to get the coach off the court, but if push comes to shove, we can't be afraid to pull the trigger. This says "may" because there are other tools we can usually use to get there. If an official "suspends" instead of "forfeits," though, I'm pretty sure any sanctioned governing body is going to declare this a forfeit and not worry about the semantics.

BigCat Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:33pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994592)
Refusing to play is a specific situation that doesn't apply to the coach being instructed to leave. I've been part of that situation as a player, and it's different. There's a reason it says "shall" in this part.

Now, the sentence Billy puts in red is the important one here, and it's the one I would use. I'm going to give the AC every chance to get the coach off the court, but if push comes to shove, we can't be afraid to pull the trigger. This says "may" because there are other tools we can usually use to get there. If an official "suspends" instead of "forfeits," though, I'm pretty sure any sanctioned governing body is going to declare this a forfeit and not worry about the semantics.

Is refusing to play a holdover from prehistoric days? Mine. Team behind has to come out and pressure. Team behind on offense has to break 28 foot mark...Can't remember. I was just popping off because somebody said never ever forfeit a game. As if it were a crime to do so. NCAAM is shall for these.

BillyMac Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:23pm

Misty Water-Colored Memories ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994599)
Is refusing to play a holdover from prehistoric days? ... Team (defense) behind has to come out and pressure. Team behind on offense has to break 28 foot mark ...

Lack of Action: One warning ("Play ball") per quarter, followed by a technical foul (probably one shot back then). Defense is responsible in a tied game.

Am I right Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.?

Adam Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 994599)
Is refusing to play a holdover from prehistoric days? Mine. Team behind has to come out and pressure. Team behind on offense has to break 28 foot mark...Can't remember. I was just popping off because somebody said never ever forfeit a game. As if it were a crime to do so. NCAAM is shall for these.

No, here's my situation as I recall (it's been a minute).

My sophomore year, we were preparing to play a perennial state champion. They were dominant, and had a reputation for running up the score. Before the game, our coach asked if we'd be ok with walking off the court if they ran the score up again.
Start of the fourth quarter, they're up 90-30 (rough numbers), and they send their starters out. Coach calls our guys back to the bench and we proceed to walk off the court.

That is refusing to play.

Coach took a two game suspension for that.

UNIgiantslayers Mon Dec 12, 2016 09:07am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 994650)
No, here's my situation as I recall (it's been a minute).

My sophomore year, we were preparing to play a perennial state champion. They were dominant, and had a reputation for running up the score. Before the game, our coach asked if we'd be ok with walking off the court if they ran the score up again.
Start of the fourth quarter, they're up 90-30 (rough numbers), and they send their starters out. Coach calls our guys back to the bench and we proceed to walk off the court.

That is refusing to play.

Coach took a two game suspension for that.

Kudos to your coach. I know of a few coaches who would have sent the goons out rather than take that passive approach.


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